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  #91  
Old July 16th, 2009, 07:05 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
No one here is trying to make you believe that his methods are better than others. In fact, I think Lynne has stated more than once that she's just trying to show a different perspective on the story, especially since she has personally seen his methods in action which many people who are bashing him - have not.

Its everyones right as to what they believe and what they don't, but it would be awesome if the thread could maintain a respectful tone instead of name-calling and sick comparisons to women abuse.
I'm very interested as to why comparing animal abuse to abuse of a woman is sick to you. Both are displays of brutality, usually by a man towards what they consider to be a weaker being.

Oh and just curious as to where the information came from that it was the person who's dog was abused that pulled the video off the internet. I just went through 28 seperate websites trying to find the original unedited video. Nowhere did it say the owner pulled the video. what it did say was.....

This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Brad Pattison Entertainment Corp .
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  #92  
Old July 16th, 2009, 07:33 PM
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Aslan,

I already explained this if you will read my last post on the previous page. The reply I made to the poster who compared the video to woman abuse is the not the video of controversy, but rather the video of Brad teaching the down. No violence occurs, but it was the posters opinion that Brad was out of line. I did not disparage that fact - that is the persons viewpoint, HOWEVER, I do not think it was appropriate to compare women abuse to this situation. I absolutley am not an advocate of abuse of ANY kind, but I do think it was out of line in this particular instance to compare this video to woman abuse.
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  #93  
Old July 16th, 2009, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
If there was seriously a case of animal abuse, then yes - I could understand the comparison that you made regarding women abuse. In this case, I can't, and I find it uncalled for.
I just have to address this and then I am done.

I have to ask you - at what point does it become abuse? My ex-husband was verbally and mentally abusive but since he didn't hit me was it not abuse? In a majority of the training videos I have seen (and I will give you - it wasn't a lot seeing as how a) I don't live in Canada and b) they seem to have been pulled) he hits or yanks a dog around by the collar. Does he have to actually break a bone or make a dog bleed before it is abuse?

IMHO - his methods are abusive. Seriously. And he teaches other people that it is exceptable to muscle, hit and jerk your dog around. That is abuse.
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  #94  
Old July 16th, 2009, 07:36 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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well you know the old comparison saying about what opinions are like. I see nothing wrong in comparing the two. Smacking your wife or your dog, or someone elses dog is abuse. You say he didn't hit the dog, several say he did. So it is abuse. Unless you think a person is more valuable than a dog?

Oh and I did read your response on the other page, that is what prompted me to respond.
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  #95  
Old July 16th, 2009, 08:00 PM
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Thank you Arlo for your valuable information, I was hoping those who are so keen on Brad's training methods would be able to defend them alas they don't see what others do, which is as you describe. Fear, anxiety, avoidance.... This dog is not working with or even for Brad, he is not engaged and not learning anything but to fear the handler. You bet he will lie down, walk off leash, come when he's called, he has to.

To each his own. Yes I have an opinion as I think someone like Brad on TV is rather dangerous. People watch, people do. People do NOT need to be following this mans lead. As a person who has rehabilitated too many screwed up dogs to count I don't want to see people doing this to their dogs. I have had dog from other so called trainers and it's a mess and not fair to the dog and yes it's abuse period.
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  #96  
Old July 16th, 2009, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
well you know the old comparison saying about what opinions are like. I see nothing wrong in comparing the two. Smacking your wife or your dog, or someone elses dog is abuse. You say he didn't hit the dog, several say he did So it is abuse. Unless you think a person is more valuable than a dog?

Oh and I did read your response on the other page, that is what prompted me to respond.
I absolutley agree that hitting any living creature IS abuse. I never disagreed with that fact, nor do I find that one life is more precious than another.

Quote:
You say he didn't hit the dog, several say he did
As I said before however, the comment made comparing abuse to women came after watching a particular video where Brad DID NOT HIT the dog in question. I don't think you're understanding this point, Aslan. We were not discussing the video that intitially prompted this thread.

The comment making a comparison to women abuse was made after watching a video where Brad demonstrated how to make the dog lie down. No hitting occured. That is why, and only why, I found it a very out of place context to compare the situation to women abuse.

If the poster had compared Brads overall training methods and expressed they felt that it was similiar to abusing women, then that is a different story all together.

Thats not what happened.

Quote:
I have to ask you - at what point does it become abuse? My ex-husband was verbally and mentally abusive but since he didn't hit me was it not abuse? In a majority of the training videos I have seen (and I will give you - it wasn't a lot seeing as how a) I don't live in Canada and b) they seem to have been pulled) he hits or yanks a dog around by the collar. Does he have to actually break a bone or make a dog bleed before it is abuse?

IMHO - his methods are abusive. Seriously. And he teaches other people that it is exceptable to muscle, hit and jerk your dog around. That is abuse.
LavanderRott, what I don't think you're understanding is that I *agree* with the majority of what you're saying. I think we are just seeing things in a different light and explaining them differently.

I too, was in a very abusive relationship for four years of my life. I know the boundaries of verbal and mental abuse and how the damage is long-lasting. I've said this to you a few times repeatedly - I DON'T carry out many of Brads methods because I, like you, find that there are other more beneficial ways to instruct and teach and rehabiliate a dog; both my own, and those of my clients. (For instance, Brad encourages people to tell their dogs in a loud and firm voice NO NOISE! - while I find this to be a really bad way to correct a dogs reaction to bark. In fact, many dogs with behavioral issues will be made worse by this reaction from their owner, thinking that their 'person' is yelling with them and it can enable a very reactive dog to continue barking.)
Brad has a very direct manner, most all of his methods are based on negative reinforcement. All I was trying to say however is that in the particular video you and I were discussing - I saw no violence occuring.

I was just explaining my reasons for not finding anything wrong or abusive in that particular video. This is not to say that I don't believe he has used unneccessary steps in his training in the past.

If you've taken my comments out of context, I apologize. I in no way want to fight or argue about a trainers methods whom I myself don't always agree with either.
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Last edited by Bailey_; July 16th, 2009 at 10:57 PM.
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  #97  
Old July 17th, 2009, 09:32 AM
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First off, to clarify someone else's question - the person who owns the original video, and the lady Brad is addressing in the video, are two different people. The lady Brad was addressing has commented on the video in question, which I already posted. The person who made the video pulled it from youtube because people were responding in a negative way, making threats, etc, and so therefore the video was pulled. There are copyright issues because someone took the video, edited it for their own purposes, and decided to distribute it wherever they could.

The training videos on his site are viewable, if you are a member of the site. I have no idea why it would only be available to Canadians, and they have not been taken down. His site is getting changed over to a new one soon, so you may be on the new site that's in development. The current one is www.bradpattison.com.


Bailey - I thank you for keeping an open mind and I hope you're well

BenMax - Thanks for having a very productive conversation, I understand why you feel strongly about your opinion, and I would never try to change that

MIA and Luvmylabs - I appreciate what you are trying to say, and I do understand, even though you seem to not believe me half the time. But the point I was trying to make is that there are different body language cues, and they can be interpreted differently. However it doesn't make one or the other right or wrong. They can both be right and both be wrong, it's all about the experience you have, and other cues that go along with it if you have the experience to read them. I can't help but be biased because I've seen Rudy in action, and in my humble layman's opinion, he seems to be very happy and loves to have a job to do, which is why I would read his body language differently than you. When you do put into play the sound, Brad's voice is very calm, and that has to be taken into account, otherwise it would be like putting a puzzle together when you are missing a bunch of pieces. You leave something like that out and you are being unprofessional and jumping to conclusions and making wrong assumptions. If I did my job that way I'd get fired.

Last edited by Lynne_B; July 17th, 2009 at 09:43 AM. Reason: I lost my temper and I shouldn't have
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  #98  
Old July 17th, 2009, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lynne_B View Post
I'll go put my rosecolored glasses back on now and take my dog for a nice long walk and see how I can get him to smile today. Or does that mean he's disengaged and a broken spirit now....I've said all I can say, so I hope everyone else here is mature enough to see all sides and have a productive discussion without resorting to accusations.

Bailey - I thank you for keeping an open mind and I hope you're well

BenMax - Thanks for having a very productive conversation, I understand why you feel strongly about your opinion, and I would never try to change that

MIA and Luvmylabs - I appreciate what you are trying to say, and I do understand, even though you seem to not believe me half the time. But the point I was trying to make is that there are different body language cues, and they can be interpreted differently. However it doesn't make one or the other right or wrong. They can both be right and both be wrong, it's all about the experience you have, and other cues that go along with it if you have the experience to read them. I can't help but be biased because I've seen Rudy in action, and in my humble layman's opinion, he seems to be very happy and loves to have a job to do, which is why I would read his body language differently than you. When you do put into play the sound, Brad's voice is very calm, and that has to be taken into account, otherwise it would be like putting a puzzle together when you are missing a bunch of pieces. You leave something like that out and you are being unprofessional and jumping to conclusions and making wrong assumptions. If I did my job that way I'd get fired.
Well said, Lynne! I second your thoughts on Rudy. This dog is *amazing*. It is obvious to anyone who meets this confident little man in person that he is well trained, given a ton of attention and excercise, and extremley happy. I miss that little man! My dogs learned so much from him.


Quote:
take my dog for a nice long walk and see how I can get him to smile today. Or does that mean he's disengaged and a broken spirit now....
This made me laugh. Fizz is probably one of the happiest dogs I've met. It's obvious that you've put so much effort and training into him, he's a very well rounded, socialized, obedient guy from what I saw. I for one can say that I am positive you and your husband would NEVER see a trainer that abused other animals, or your own dog. When I read your comments on this site it is also obvious that you have done so much of your own research into dog behavior and training, which frankly I find that when someone tells you that you don't know what you're talking about regarding Brads training specifically, is insulting your intelligence. I feel sorry for those people who are so quick to judge you, and others on this site who do not share the same opinion.

I think abuse is a very harsh word, used loosely towards training methods that people don't agree with.
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  #99  
Old July 17th, 2009, 09:59 AM
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Thanks Bailey!

To everyone else, I apologize for the harshness of the comment that I removed from my post, I lost my temper and edited it as such.
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  #100  
Old July 17th, 2009, 11:15 AM
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WTF?? Sheeba can go from lay down to the sit position on her own with just verbal or hand signal. And I never had to use physical touch or a collar tug during training either of my girls. I used only yummy snacks, verbal commands and some hand signals.

I don't agree with that training method in the video at all. Poor little dog!
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=32083761264 OMFG whip freagen lash or what

I didn't get the see the 1st video on this thread, it appears to of been pulled as well as all the others, wonder y
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  #101  
Old July 17th, 2009, 12:01 PM
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I'd like to post a link to another video, just so we have something to compare the previous one to. Both videos teach the down command using two different approaches. Can you see in this video how the puppy is trying to think for himself rather than having someone force him into a down? He tries to get it out of the handler's hand and offers his paw. He's using his own thought processes. His attempts are not rewarded but once he does figure the right position, he get a marker (click...one could use a verbal marker as well ie, "yes") and a treat. The correct response is reinforced enabling the puppy to learn what is being asked of him.

The end result may well indeed be the same using either approach. I guess we need to ask ourselves which one we can live with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwJW...eature=related
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Old July 17th, 2009, 12:06 PM
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Well, admittedly, I am not doggy smart, but I can recognize a happy, smiling dog and that poor grey dog did not have the smile that I see when owners are interacting with their pups. I feel sorry for that dog :sad:.

whoops should clarify, the one in the facebook link, not lp's.
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  #103  
Old July 17th, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
I'd like to post a link to another video, just so we have something to compare the previous one to. Both videos teach the down command using two different approaches. Can you see in this video how the puppy is trying to think for himself rather than having someone force him into a down? He tries to get it out of the handler's hand and offers his paw. He's using his own thought processes. His attempts are not rewarded but once he does figure the right position, he get a marker (click...one could use a verbal marker as well ie, "yes") and a treat. The correct response is reinforced enabling the puppy to learn what is being asked of him.

The end result may well indeed be the same using either approach. I guess we need to ask ourselves which one we can live with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwJW...eature=related
Thanks for posting this link LP!!
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  #104  
Old July 17th, 2009, 12:27 PM
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For all I know, it was addressed and just not shown. But the fact of the matter is, out in the real world, you aren't always going to have control of your surroundings. .
I agree you will never have total control of your surroundings, however I always have total control of my dogs. Under no circumstances will I put my dogs in a position which could jepordize them.

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Originally Posted by MIA View Post
Here's another training video, please watch it with the sound off.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=32083761264

.
That video just reinforces my opinion of Brad...which I posted on another thread...for those that didn't read it, my opinion of him is less than favorable.

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I guess we didn't see the same video. I saw a man pull a dog up by the leash, from the down position, with a bit more enthusiasm than it warranted.

I think this can go around and around and nobody will change their opinions, at least I know I won't.
I seen a pup that seemed slightly confused as to why he was being yanked up feet off the ground, and with each yank seemed to be more frightened. I think we seen the same video AG.

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Originally Posted by Lynne_B View Post
Oh, ok I understand now. What about Rudy's and/or Brad's body language bothered you, just so I understand what part of it you are referring to. Is there something specific that you wanted to point out?
The dogs body language didn't say "confident" to me, it read, "why are you yanking me up like that". Rudy looked more uncomfortable and scared to me than anything else. Sorry that's just my opinion.
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  #105  
Old July 17th, 2009, 12:49 PM
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I particularly liked the stairs one. Not only does he jerk the dog off the steps but he kicks him in the butt. Classy.

.
I seen that one too, I was fuming, if that man ever did something like that to one of my dogs....well lets just say that lump in his throat wouldn't be his adams apple.

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Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
The only time I see that dog looking at Brad is AFTER he has been lifted up by his collar. As for the dog's posture while being lifted - he makes himself go limp, which is certainly not the same as calm.
I agree 100% with you there LavenderRott, I felt bad for that little dog:sad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
I'd like to post a link to another video, just so we have something to compare the previous one to. Both videos teach the down command using two different approaches. Can you see in this video how the puppy is trying to think for himself rather than having someone force him into a down? He tries to get it out of the handler's hand and offers his paw. He's using his own thought processes. His attempts are not rewarded but once he does figure the right position, he get a marker (click...one could use a verbal marker as well ie, "yes") and a treat. The correct response is reinforced enabling the puppy to learn what is being asked of him.

The end result may well indeed be the same using either approach. I guess we need to ask ourselves which one we can live with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwJW...eature=related
LP, thank you for posting that. There is a huge difference in my opinion. The pup in your link looks happy and eager, the little dog in Brad's video, well I've already stated my opinion of that.
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  #106  
Old July 17th, 2009, 01:42 PM
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The dogs body language didn't say "confident" to me, it read, "why are you yanking me up like that". Rudy looked more uncomfortable and scared to me than anything else. Sorry that's just my opinion
I'm curious LMP, what about his behavior did you find looked scared and uncomfortable? I didn't notice that, so if there's something I'm missing, I'd sincerely like to have it pointed out to me. Thanks!
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  #107  
Old July 17th, 2009, 01:49 PM
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I'm curious LMP, what about his behavior did you find looked scared and uncomfortable? I didn't notice that, so if there's something I'm missing, I'd sincerely like to have it pointed out to me. Thanks!
I'm sorry, but why must this be explained to you? LMP already gave her opinion. That is how SHE saw it. There is no reason for her or anyone here to keep going over the same thing. You keep saying to please explain this or you seem to be missing that. Why? Everyone here has already expressed their thoughts on this, and having to explain themselves yet again is pointless.

I say purple, someone else may say violet, and yet another person will say lilac. That's how they see it, and no more words will change their minds.
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  #108  
Old July 17th, 2009, 02:31 PM
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I'm sorry, but why must this be explained to you? LMP already gave her opinion. That is how SHE saw it. There is no reason for her or anyone here to keep going over the same thing. You keep saying to please explain this or you seem to be missing that. Why? Everyone here has already expressed their thoughts on this, and having to explain themselves yet again is pointless.

I say purple, someone else may say violet, and yet another person will say lilac. That's how they see it, and no more words will change their minds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Bailey wanted you to say what specifically in Rudy's body language said that he was scared and uncomfortable. For example, did he cower, was his tail between his legs? I didn't see that in this situation, it's just examples of two types of body language that could be interpreted as fear.

As for the clicker video, that's good if you prefer to use that method of training, I am well aware of how to train lay down using treats, and in this case, treats/clicker. What I'd like to see though, is how you would train the same thing, using no treats, just praise. For example, as a puppy, my dog was hyper hyper hyper. He had 2 modes, hyper, and asleep. Initially we used kibble/treats to show him how to sit, lay down, etc, but he didn't care about the food, he just wanted to play, nip at our hands, normal puppy behaviour. He didn't care about the treat at all though, and barely even sniffed it, so he didn't really know what we were trying to tell him. So in order to show him what we wanted him to do, we used the collar to guide him into position, then gave him lots of praise. We didn't see the actual guiding him with his collar as a punishment of any kind, and in no way was he being choked or pulled around. So would doing that and then praising be considered negative reinforcement, or would it just be another way of showing him what we want him to do? Let me know what you think.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM
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What I think is that if anyone showed me what they wanted me to do by dragging me around the neck or jerking on the collar of my shirt - I may well learn what they want me to, and I might not even say anything (have I mentioned that my husband things that I am aggressive?) but that certainly doesn't make it any less abusive.

I am not a dog. I speak the same language you do and through that - you are able to communicate to me. Your dog hears "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah" - jerk to the floor by the collar. If a toddler won't stop running in circles around your living room do you grab it by the throat to make it stop?

I think what we are trying to make you understand is this - JERKING A DOG AROUND BY THE COLLAR IS ABUSE. No matter what the dog (who hasn't known anything different ever)thinks - as a living, breathing, THINKING human being - it is abuse!
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Old July 17th, 2009, 06:02 PM
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I'm sorry, but why must this be explained to you? LMP already gave her opinion. That is how SHE saw it. There is no reason for her or anyone here to keep going over the same thing. You keep saying to please explain this or you seem to be missing that. Why? Everyone here has already expressed their thoughts on this, and having to explain themselves yet again is pointless.

I say purple, someone else may say violet, and yet another person will say lilac. That's how they see it, and no more words will change their minds.
Ancientgirl, I am NOT trying to change anyones mind. And as far as I know, the only time I've asked anyone to explain their reasons was this ONE TIME with LMP because I am genuinely interested - and I respect her comments on it.
Why are there so many people in this forum that believe if someone has a different opinion on a topic, that we are suddenly trying to convert people? I am very well aware that a lot of people don't like Brad or his tactics, and I'm certainly not trying to have people explain to me why they don't like Brad.

As I've said many times before, in this thread alone, I am not a Brad-Advocate. So I'm certainly not trying to get anyone onto anybody else's bandwagon. I just want reasons, instead of being told "that dog is so much more sad than this dog". Is that too much to ask? This is a pet forum, I find it a wonderful place to explore subjects and test training theories. This is my career - I want to be very good at what I do. If I miss something, I want to be corrected.

People attribute human emotion to animals all the time, and all I am looking for is someone to step away from telling me how Rudy apparently feels in the video, and explain WHY they feel that way and what behavior and body language the dog is exhibiting to lead them to believe he is 'upset'. My reason is because when I watch the video, I see the dog displaying absolutley no fear reaction towards Brad. So that is why I want to know why certain people are so upset about how 'sad' Rudy is.

I have seen hundreds of abused dogs, many of abused cats, and not one of them displayed action the way Rudy is displaying in that video. He doesn't cower from Brads touch, nor does he avoid eye contact. There is not any nervous twitching, or fear submission reaction happening. I just don't see it. So far, no one has pointed it out either. Maybe you can?
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Old July 17th, 2009, 06:21 PM
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Actually - look at the body language of everyone around him - not one seemed uncomfortable nor annoyed. Arms crossed, observing - I mean COME ON!
I'm guessing because they are Brad Pattison's freaks like some that i'm reading here .... wow ....

You would think that , being in 2009 , more people would know about positive reinforcement ? but I guess some people are more into "show offing" their dogs and how they can "control" them , thinking they are good trainers / dog owners pfffttt

I fostered about 25 dogs so far , and I always do the basic training with them , and I never had to use those stupid Milan or Pattison methods.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 06:28 PM
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What I think is that if anyone showed me what they wanted me to do by dragging me around the neck or jerking on the collar of my shirt - I may well learn what they want me to, and I might not even say anything (have I mentioned that my husband things that I am aggressive?) but that certainly doesn't make it any less abusive.

I am not a dog. I speak the same language you do and through that - you are able to communicate to me. Your dog hears "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah" - jerk to the floor by the collar. If a toddler won't stop running in circles around your living room do you grab it by the throat to make it stop?

I think what we are trying to make you understand is this - JERKING A DOG AROUND BY THE COLLAR IS ABUSE. No matter what the dog (who hasn't known anything different ever)thinks - as a living, breathing, THINKING human being - it is abuse!
Totally understandable LR, and I can see what you're saying.

I think if Brad did anything wrong in that video, it was not properly displaying what he tells clients to do in person.

Whenever I saw him explain this method in person, he would very gently press down on the leash towards the ground, applying juuuuust enough pressure for the dog to understand the direction that the handler wanted the dog to focus on. It was never, ever about slamming the dog to the ground with all the force in the world, and I think he should've been more careful about how he portrayed that training technique.

As far as dragging your dog around by the collar - I see people doing this every day, walking their dogs on a leash - if the dog does not respect the leash or the owner, isn't that what is happening to the dogs neck as the owner hauls the dog back to their side over and over and over again? Or what about the dog that is straining on the leash to socialize with another dog, but the owner tugs on the leash to keep moving? And regardless of whether or not the owner themselves puts tension on the leash, what about the dog itself that can be putting it there by pulling and leading?

I bet you those owners don't consider themselves abusive.
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  #113  
Old July 17th, 2009, 06:34 PM
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I'm guessing because they are Brad Pattison's freaks like some that i'm reading here .... wow ....

You would think that , being in 2009 , more people would know about positive reinforcement ? but I guess some people are more into "show offing" their dogs and how they can "control" them , thinking they are good trainers / dog owners pfffttt

I fostered about 25 dogs so far , and I always do the basic training with them , and I never had to use those stupid Milan or Pattison methods.
Wow. Pattison freaks? Thanks...lol

I'm actually more surprised that people seem out to kill anyone with opinions that differ than theirs.
It's not a matter about whether or not someone believes in methods that Milan or Pattison happen to teach; it's about whether or not we do what is best for our dogs and our familys. It's about finding what works for you as their owner and trainer and caregiver.

Why there is all this "positive reinforcement" is the ONLY way is such hooey in my opinion.
I don't teach thru JUST positive reinforcement but I certainly don't bash any trainer or their training techniques. I think we can look for the good in all. But maybe I just need to get in touch with the 2009 in me, hmm?
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  #114  
Old July 17th, 2009, 06:38 PM
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I'm with you Frenchy, not once have i had to resort to yanking any of my dogs up and down by their collar. I have very well manored pets and there was no form of abuse involved. I'd rather my animal relate training with something positive, even if its just a " omg what a good boy" thank yank up, yank down, yank up, yank down...For some reason when ever these threads about pattison and milan get going, the names Jim Jones and Charles Manson come to mind.
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  #115  
Old July 17th, 2009, 06:44 PM
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I'm with you Frenchy, not once have i had to resort to yanking any of my dogs up and down by their collar.
I guess it must be us aslan .... we're probably not macho enough

or we're the few ones that only owned/fostered super good dogs
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  #116  
Old July 17th, 2009, 06:47 PM
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I guess it must be us aslan .... we're probably not macho enough

or we're the few ones that only owned/fostered super good dogs
ummm speak for yourself mini me... D Y K E....definately macho enough over here...

that must be it, i knew we were special..
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  #117  
Old July 17th, 2009, 06:53 PM
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I'm curious LMP, what about his behavior did you find looked scared and uncomfortable? I didn't notice that, so if there's something I'm missing, I'd sincerely like to have it pointed out to me. Thanks!
Oh I don't know, perhaps the way his ears were laid back, and the way he seemed hunkered, either way he didn't looked relaxed and confident. Like I said that's just my opinion. Even his facial expression looked uncertain to me.
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  #118  
Old July 17th, 2009, 07:12 PM
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Firstly, my opinion of Brad Pattison is strictly my own, I don't like him on several levels. However, I don't expect others to feel the way I do about him and I certainly don't begrudge those that do agree or approve of his methods.

Secondly, for basic obiedience training I used positive reinforcement and kept treats to a strict minimum.
While teaching "tricks", I would use treats a bit more.

I have fostered many dogs over the years, mostly bully breeds, some were abused, most were just neglected and never taught anything. I have never had to resort to yanking, smacking, kicking or clothes~lining any dog. In my humble opinion it's not necessary.

In the clip with Brad and Rudy, I see a pup that looked uncertain to why it was being yanked up, I see a fearful pup, that's just my perception, I'm certainly not trying to make anyone see it the same way.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 07:16 PM
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THANKYOU for replying and explaining what you were seeing LMP in that clip.

I agree - there are more effective ways to establish the down (in particular as thats what we're discussing).

And you brought up an awesome point - for dogs that *have* been previously abused, negative reinforcement can often times make the animal behave much worse, especially if innteruptions come at a mili-second too late.
I don't think Brad or Milan methods will work long-term on dogs that have serious rehabilitation issues, particularly from abuse.
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  #120  
Old July 17th, 2009, 07:17 PM
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I certainly don't begrudge those that do agree or approve of his methods.
you have no idea how nice it is to hear that in this thread....thankyou LMP!!!!!
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