Rescuing an English Bulldog??

[Angeleyes1437]

If you have Animal Planet- at 10-10:30 you will see Ceaser Millan, he has like 40 dogs.. most of them Pit Bull Breeds. As for the behaviorists, Dr. Borchelt is his name, he is the most recent one I've spoken to. He was going to help me get Max over lack of confendece. However, he hasn't been showing signs of fear (out of the house) lately and I've been taking him out and using some tactics that seemed to work (he was taken from his litter WAY too early because people are idiots). He actually wanted to meet at the dog park, so he could see how Maximus interacted with other dogs!! I am at the point where I want to blow my brains out! I got him expecting we wouldn't be able to bring him to dog parks after a certain age... then I hear NO NO NO... so I bring him, he's great... then I hear NO NO NO. I'm just really confused now and getting fustrated... it's starting to seem like it is all opinion to me.

[LL1]

I agree with more socializing,with people,and dogs you know in a safe controlled environment.Not a dog park.You cannot control things there.

Originally Posted by Angeleyes1437

He was going to help me get Max over lack of confendece. However, he hasn't been showing signs of fear (out of the house) lately and I've been taking him out and using some tactics that seemed to work (he was taken from his litter WAY too early because people are idiots).

[toby's tracy]

Originally Posted by Angeleyes1437

I'm just really confused now and getting fustrated... it's starting to seem like it is all opinion to me.

In that case, if it were me I would go with the opinion that will absolutely ensure the safety of my dog.

The way I see it, keeping him out of dog parks is the one.

A thought - if you do get another dog and they are together in the dog park, and another dog play fights with the new dog...how might her older brother feel/react?

I know it is a 'what if' but it just came to me and seemed a relevant 'what if' to think of!

Do you have access to a private fenced in yard? Since you feel so passionately about this, your passion may be the fuel you need to start a play date service of some sort...hmmm, could be fun! If I lived in New York I'd seriously think of doing that with you. As it is, where I live we have lots of fenced in backyards to use!

I wish you strength in dealing with this!

[Spurby]

If you talk to the breed "experts" and i am certainly not saying i am, but i listen to them, they will tell you the same thing we are. Just because someone is a trainer or behaviourist doesn't mean they know or understand this breed. I live in Ontario, where we are facing a breed ban. Some of the incidents that added fuel to the fire happened IN dog parks. This is a sad fact for this breed, every incident, no matter how small, put another nail in the coffin for BSL. BSL is spreading like wildfire, do the right thing, keep your dog out of dog parks, and take her for walks around the city and show her off to people instead..get her CGC, continue to train and socialize her with people and other dogs, but with people you know, and not in dog parks, perhaps someone backyard?

[Angeleyes1437]

I understand what you mean with dog parks in general... and my sister and I sometimes take them to a park across the street during the day- when it is empty. Although I haven't had many bad experiences at dog parks I have heard of plenty. However, living in the city it's hard to find places to take them where they can really let loose and get the exercise they need! Plus I don't like keeping him away from dogs because of his breed- I want him to be used to all kinds of environments.

However, you are right... I cannot control the situation in a dog park- or any public place for that matter. Any idiot can come in with a vicious dog and Maximus can get involved. You are right. It's just that walks only do so much, and I am running out of good ideas as for socialization and exercise. I don't want him to be limited to my sisters and bf's sisters dogs.

I just wish everyone on this post was constructive with their posts like you instead of being bullyish. However, most of the posts here have been helpful.

[toby's tracy]

Is there a pitbull society of some sort in New York?

It might be worthwhile checking it out...I am sure you are not the only pit bull owner in NY with these concerns!

It could be a good place to network and find places for play dates...and if there aren't any yet - it could be a good site to set one up!

Again - good luck with this.

[Angeleyes1437]

Originally Posted by Spurby

If you talk to the breed "experts" and i am certainly not saying i am, but i listen to them, they will tell you the same thing we are. Just because someone is a trainer or behaviourist doesn't mean they know or understand this breed. I live in Ontario, where we are facing a breed ban. Some of the incidents that added fuel to the fire happened IN dog parks. This is a sad fact for this breed, every incident, no matter how small, put another nail in the coffin for BSL. BSL is spreading like wildfire, do the right thing, keep your dog out of dog parks, and take her for walks around the city and show her off to people instead..get her CGC, continue to train and socialize her with people and other dogs, but with people you know, and not in dog parks, perhaps someone backyard?

You are right, and I'm starting to not want to deal with dog parks at all, not matter what the breed, because in a way it is asking for problems. Especially when people walk in to show off their dominant tough dog. I usually leave, but what if I cannot in time? So I understand. I have an enclosed back yard and Maximus goes out there a lot, but usually just to do his business. It is only about 20x25 feet. He is around other dogs often, and I walk him- but do you think the regular park when it is off-peak is okay? I still feel like that can be dangerous, ... I cannot control a situation unless it is in my own backyard... my property or someone elses. In public places it is hard. Plus, some guy on my block walks his APBT off leash... he is VERY sweet- but still... aside from crossing on his own away from the owner and almost getting hit by a car it isn't very smart for other reasons! Sometimes dogs can be aggressive when they are onleash... especially when another dog is off leash and they aren't. Max has always been fine with him, but you never know.

[Lucky Rescue]

Not a dog park.You cannot control things there

Right. Taking a dog who lacks confidence to a dog park is like taking someone who fears the water and throwing him out of a boat. Putting a dog in the middle of something he fears is called "flooding" and is not recommended. Gradual desensitization is a better way.

Every trainer or behaviorist may not know everything about every specific breed. Not to mention that as with any professional, there are good behaviorists and bad and everything in between.

I chose to listen to people who have been rescuing, owning, raising and even breeding these dogs for many years, rather than others who have not. All these people manage to have healthy, happy pit bulls without the benefit of a dog park, at least not for puppies over 5 or 6 months of age.There is no substitute for hands-on experience in my mind.

We want to help. Can you tell us when you got Maximus, how old he was, and when the lack of confidence started, and how it manifests? Is he over it now? It sounds like he is.

Yes I watch Cesar Milan all the time. You will note at the beginning of the show that viewers are warned about not trying any of his methods yourself.

Since I don't have his experience, knowledge or confidence, I certainly would not!

Please don't get frustrated. It's quite simple. Taking your maturing pit bull to a dog park is risking his life and other dogs' lives. Period.

[Angeleyes1437]

Originally Posted by toby's tracy

Is there a pitbull society of some sort in New York?

It might be worthwhile checking it out...I am sure you are not the only pit bull owner in NY with these concerns!

It could be a good place to network and find places for play dates...and if there aren't any yet - it could be a good site to set one up!

Again - good luck with this.

There are groups but they often meet in dog parks. I cannot see letting a bunch of pit bulls loose in a dog park together being a good thing... I just can't. He has his doggy cousins to play with... my issue is just that I don't want him to get used to them ONLY and then start to become dog aggressive with OTHER dogs... you know? Is everyone getting my points?

[Spurby]

Plus I don't like keeping him away from dogs because of his breed- I want him to be used to all kinds of environments.

This breed doesn't "need" to be around other dogs. This breed is people oriented, they want to be with thier owners most!!

I live in a large city. I never take my dog off-leash anwhere except for fenced in baseball areas..i go early and make sure my dog and i don't leave a mess!! I go for long walks, and do training with her, she is happy and content without ever stepping foot in a dog park, and she only has a few doggy friends, she prefers me to them too as she has matured.

He is around other dogs often, and I walk him- but do you think the regular park when it is off-peak is okay?

Yes, on-lead of course. I go to parks to that aren't off-leash, and use a long lead so my dog can run! It works very well.

[toby's tracy]

Originally Posted by Angeleyes1437

T... my issue is just that I don't want him to get used to them ONLY and then start to become dog aggressive with OTHER dogs... you know? Is everyone getting my points?

Does anyone know if dogs discriminate between species? I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I am just wondering if the breed makes a difference in socialization...

[Angeleyes1437]

Originally Posted by LuckyRescue

Right. Taking a dog who lacks confidence to a dog park is like taking someone who fears the water and throwing him out of a boat. Putting a dog in the middle of something he fears is called "flooding" and is not recommended. Gradual desensitization is a better way.

Every trainer or behaviorist may not know everything about every specific breed. Not to mention that as with any professional, there are good behaviorists and bad and everything in between.

I chose to listen to people who have been rescuing, owning, raising and even breeding these dogs for many years, rather than others who have not. All these people manage to have healthy, happy pit bulls without the benefit of a dog park, at least not for puppies over 5 or 6 months of age.There is no substitute for hands-on experience in my mind.

We want to help. Can you tell us when you got Maximus, how old he was, and when the lack of confidence started, and how it manifests? Is he over it now? It sounds like he is.

Yes I watch Cesar Milan all the time. You will note at the beginning of the show that viewers are warned about not trying any of his methods yourself.

Since I don't have his experience, knowledge or confidence, I certainly would not!

Please don't get frustrated. It's quite simple. Taking your maturing pit bull to a dog park is risking his life and other dogs' lives. Period.

Thank you Lucky... I knew something was getting across wrong with you because I am not irrational... and definitely not stupid- I just don't ALWAYS know the best choice, like many of us... so I come here for help. You have always been helpful with me.

As for Maximus having insecurity it's not with other dogs, he is great with them! Off leash he is fine, perfect actually. On leash at about 6 months he started barking at everything. So I started correcting him by dinking the leash and making him look at me (watch me command) I would make him sit until he calmed down. It was rarely other dogs but actually people on bikes, carriages (which was a big problem for me as you could imagine), or scary looking MEN!! LOL. Specifically tall or dark colored men. This has pretty much completely gone away... he is fine now. However, he does still have fear of the vet (which started at about 6 months). He wags hit tail and goes over to him... you can tell he wants to say hi but actually gets scared once he puts his hand out to pet him. He flinches, backs up and barks. However, if he never goes to pet him, Maximus will lick him and sniff him like crazy! It's like he is saying "On my terms, not yours!". The vet told me if he didn't know me so well he would think I hit him, by his reaction. However, I've never hit Maximus, I use purely positive reinforcement.

Now he is fine on the leash... will rarely bark at something or even answer another dogs barks- but it is corrected right away and thats it. So it's not really a problem anymore, just when he does I make sure I'm consistent.

I got him at FOUR weeks old!! Some idiots who was a friend of a friend had two UKC registered APBT's and bred them. I was devastated as I has just lost my dog of 17 years (in her sleep, I can thank God of that), so I went to the house with her to see them- but purely to lecture him. They wanted the puppies out of there as they "smelled bad" and were "too much work". They were also letting people in with sneakers (hi, PARVO!), and it was just a horrible situation. So to make a long story short, I paid to get both dogs fixed, took Maximus and the remaining pups and found them all great homes to friends... we all keep in touch. Leaving out my lecturing and rudeness as you could imagine how mad I was at the situation.

Anyway, I know that is way too early to be away from mommy- unfortunately these things happen. In the house he's never feared, been aggressive or anything undesirable... to dogs, people, kids, name it! It was only out of the house on the leash that he ever had a problem. I may be leaving some things out... however thats pretty much it.

[Angeleyes1437]

Originally Posted by toby's tracy

Does anyone know if dogs discriminate between species? I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I am just wondering if the breed makes a difference in socialization...

Between species or breeds? I know my sister's JRT HATES Boxers... only Boxers. We have no clue why. Dogs have been known to favor or dislike specfic breeds.

[toby's tracy]

oops...yes, I meant breeds!

[Angeleyes1437]

I figured that... otherwise there would be a huge YES!! Max hasn't showed any sign of this as he is still young. My poodle was afraid of Husky like breeds, whether it be husky, Alaskan Malamutes etc. Because she was nipped by one... in a dog park! See... I guess dog parks are trouble! My sisters Jack Russell just hates Boxers. I think it is because they tend to be full of energy! He hates that, lol... he is evil... but we love him. Once we see a Boxer we know to keep him away... he won't attack but he will be VERY mean.

[Angeleyes1437]

This post really went off topic huh? It is a good topic regardless though.

[Angeleyes1437]

I just went to pick up Max's food for the month from a local pet supply where they specialize in products for APBT's. One of the owners is actually Abady himself! So with all of this dog park stuff fresh on my mind I brough it up. The woman at the store- wife of the other guy (not abady) raised APBT's with her husband and Abady for 50 years! So I figured who better to ask of their opinion.

I brought up the issue and she said, dog parks do ask for trouble- but to any breed of dog. Of course some Pit Bulls, just like some dogs of other breeds should not go. However it truly depends on the dog. Which is exactly my opinion. She has had APBT's that are sweet to anything and everything and APBT's that had to be seperated from the others their whole life. She still takes her APBT to the park to play with other dogs off leash- but not an actual dog park, she doesn't like them- she said it is asking for your dog to get bitten and hate other dogs forever.


Then she gave me something else to ponder.

She then told me that Maximus is not an APBT!! I mean, everyone says that to me. She said he looks too bully and that he is an American Bulldog... and he is very sweet just like them. I know he looks a lot like an AB, and people always ask me if he is one. I just figured he came out with a lot more Bulldog qualities... I know there are ways around UKC/AKC papers. Do you think it is possible the father could be an American Bulldog?? I saw the parents, but maybe the mom was around an American Bulldog male and there are two fathers to the litter. After all, the people I adopted him from (as you read in my excerpt above) weren't exactly prize breeders! I know they would take them to doggy events and they were around other unaltered dogs a lot... from the questions I was able to ask while I was lecturing them.

My brother in law has been saying that since Maximus was a pup... I don't care what he is- I love him to death as any breed! Just something to think of. Here is a pic... what do you guys think.

[babyrocky1]

If its true I would be one happy camper!!!! Rocky looks very much like Maximus and my vet has him registered as an american bulldog dalmation X. That however was my doing, here, the vet association stance is that the owner is the best person to determine the breed of their dog. So that is what Ive determined,LOL once the city registers him, likely they will decide he is a pit bull. I got the american bull dog from a dog that lives near us that from a distance I actually thought was my Rocky!!! The dalmation is cause of his spots. Unfortunately Rocky has that ridge down the centere of his head. I think thats a give away, but Max doesnt seem to have it. American bull dogs are bigger, taller than pit bulls or staffs. There faces are shaped a little differently from the staffy, more bull doggy, but its hard to tell from a front facing picture. Do you have pics from a different angle?How tall is he? (Rockys pic is on the Pit Bull Coop thread, way before waldo the troll )

[Angeleyes1437]

babyrocky I swear your dog looks like Maximus so much... Max even has little black spots all over- which is common for American Bulldogs.

His back is about knee high, he's about 65lbs. at 10 months.

Here is a pic of him with me (and I'm pretty tall for a woman 5'8") so you can see his size. I just woke up in the pic... don't mind my funny face and PJ's!

[babyrocky1]

Hey Angel Eyes, Max is so cute... You know I thought I HAD answereed this thread an hour ago and it seems to have gone away!!! Im going to answer it again, cause once you gET to know me better, you will learn tht I am errr...computerly awkward. LOL must have pressed the wrong thing again.... Our dogs are sooo beautiful...lol Rocky has that same pink fleck on his nose.. I just love having a pink dog. Anyway, Max from that angle does look more like an American Bull dog than Rocky does. Rockys face is slimmer, his build is slim for am staff or an American bulldog, He is sixty pounds, very muscular! but not thick. I would post you more pics of him but I dont know how to do it, always get my daughter to, but shes really busy, so its on the list of things to learn. Once I do figure it out Ill probably have them plastered from one end of the site to the otherLOL

[babyrocky1]

One more thing, all the American Bulldogs that I know are bigger, I think they are from the mastiff family, but I dont know much other than the dogs Ive actually met, Rocky plays with one, errr on leash not in a park...lol He gets completely bewildered cause the dog is a pup maybe eight months old and is sooo much bigger than him, which he is not used to. He likes the play, but he always looks confused by it... Oh Rocky is six. Max looks like he could be a cross of Am bulldog and staff or pit, just because I think that Am bulldogs are bigger but there could be a size range in the breed. Others here would know much better than I. Luckily in your case all that matters is that you have a great doggy! Enjoy

[mona_b]

Here are some pics of a PB American Bulldog.

[mona_b]

and here is another.

[mona_b]

and a last one.

Males are 22-27"
Femanles 20-25"

Males 75-125lbs
Females 60-100lbs

Notice that this breed has the "bulldog" features.

[mona_b]

And this sweetie is a PB American Staff.

[mona_b]

last one...I promise..LOL

[babyrocky1]

Thanks for the pics Mona, So the first one is a pit bull crossed with an American Bulldog?

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by babyrocky1

Thanks for the pics Mona, So the first one is a pit bull crossed with an American Bulldog?

Opps sorry,the PB meant Purebred....LOL

The last 2 picks are of a Purebred American Staff.

[babyrocky1]

Duh,,, LOL I couldn't for the life of me figure tht out LOL I really do have pit bulls on the brain lately hahah! Its funny though with the american bull dogs, some really look like pit bulls and others dont. I think alot has to do with the colouring. Do you think that Angel Eyes dog is a cross? Max, he looks like that to me. I love the expression on the lasts guy or gals face!

[Angeleyes1437]

Yeah, the American Bulldog's are stockier and bigger, there are different kinds however. Some have a face similar to a boxer. I know Maximus is definitely 1/2 APBT... the other half I can't guarantee anything- but I can definitely say if you saw him you would say he doesn't look like a "typical" APBT. Those pups are all so cute, are they yours?