Raw food for pets - BARF diet

[pitgrrl]

Some people use yogurt, others kefir, I've even known of a couple of people giving Bio-K (sort of a super yogurt in regards to bacteria). Probiotics in supplement form are also certainly used (starting with a small amount and working up) as they often have multiple types of bacteria rather than just acidophollis (clearly I butchered that word ).

All that said though, you may very well not need them.

[Myka]

You can buy capsules of just acidophilus...is that what I want then? I was going to start her on it a week before changing her to raw, then change her morning meal (7 am) to raw chicken, then if that's all good after a week I'll change her evening meal (6 pm) to raw as well. Would a month of acidophilus be sufficient to get her gut flora going?

Please keep in mind that my dog has been eating kibble (Nutro) for 9 years. Her tummy is good on kibble, but if she ever gets into something that is not her kibble then she has baaaaaaaaaaaaad diarrhea.

[babyrocky1]

Yay, I was just about to search for his thread! Well a year later! rocky is on raw now and he loves it... I am concerned about the balance though, he is refusing his veggies etc... he is hardly eating anything but meat and bone...
I have been shredding raw veggies and putting them in with ground raw meat but I don't know if he is getting enough.

Ive asked my vet but he just told me to buy stuff from the pet store which is hugely expensive and had rice in it, which is what I have finally found out, he doesn't do well digestive wise with... in short, raw meat and bones ... going really well, but I'm not sure about the proportion of veggies and grain....

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by Myka

You can buy capsules of just acidophilus...is that what I want then? I was going to start her on it a week before changing her to raw, then change her morning meal (7 am) to raw chicken, then if that's all good after a week I'll change her evening meal (6 pm) to raw as well. Would a month of acidophilus be sufficient to get her gut flora going?

Please keep in mind that my dog has been eating kibble (Nutro) for 9 years. Her tummy is good on kibble, but if she ever gets into something that is not her kibble then she has baaaaaaaaaaaaad diarrhea.

No, I think the advantage of getting a supplement, rather than yogurt, is that there are many available with 8 or 12 strains of bacteria. I don't have first hand expereince with this, but I do know a few people who have had much better luck with digestive enzymes, rather than probiotics, for the type of thing you're describing.

Again though, I have a dog with a really sketchy digestive system and he switched fine without any supplementation.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by babyrocky1

... going really well, but I'm not sure about the proportion of veggies and grain....

Great news that it's been going well for you! It's my understanding that grains and veggies are not necessary. One of our dogs gets no grain whatsoever. The other two maybe a couple of tablespoons per week. They all get a variety of veggies, again, just a few tablespoons per week. I've read good things about offering veggies, and not so good things. We just choose to feed a small quantity. I've learned that in order for a dog to properly digest veggies, and properly assimilate any nutrients they have to offer, they have to be put through a juicer.

If Rocky gets a wide variety of meat (including a small amount of bone) and organs, including green tripe, I wouldn't be too worried about him not getting any vegetable matter in his diet.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by pitgrrl

No, I think the advantage of getting a supplement, rather than yogurt, is that there are many available with 8 or 12 strains of bacteria. I don't have first hand expereince with this, but I do know a few people who have had much better luck with digestive enzymes, rather than probiotics, for the type of thing you're describing.

Again though, I have a dog with a really sketchy digestive system and he switched fine without any supplementation.

Ok, so I'm looking for "digestive enzymes", not "probiotics"...? And how much?????? LOL...that's it, I'm going to make a thread dedicated to how much, cuz no one seems to be able to answer me!

[pitgrrl]

For the digestive enzyme I was told, from someone I trust who uses them, that for my dog, who's around 60lbs (and boxer/pit bull cross too ) that 1/2 to 3/4 of the recommended adult dose.

There are also dog versions from Solid Gold, B NAturals I think, Nzyme or something close to that, so they would have the correct dog dose listed.

[Myka]

Ok thanks! At least that's something to go on!

It seems like there are quite a few people on these forums that have Pit/Boxer crosses. Every time I tell people what breeds Myka is they always say, "That's a different mix." I guess not on here eh? We should dedicate a picture thread for all the Pit/Boxer crosses!!

[babyrocky1]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Great news that it's been going well for you! It's my understanding that grains and veggies are not necessary. One of our dogs gets no grain whatsoever. The other two maybe a couple of tablespoons per week. They all get a variety of veggies, again, just a few tablespoons per week. I've read good things about offering veggies, and not so good things. We just choose to feed a small quantity. I've learned that in order for a dog to properly digest veggies, and properly assimilate any nutrients they have to offer, they have to be put through a juicer.

If Rocky gets a wide variety of meat (including a small amount of bone) and organs, including green tripe, I wouldn't be too worried about him not getting any vegetable matter in his diet.

Hmmm, I have been shredding him stuff, or more accurately grating it, as in with a cheese grater and then putting it in ground beef or chicken... I haven't been giving him much variety in his meat, mostly just chicken and sometimes beef... this week Ive been putting a bit of whole wheat bread in the mix, he is doing fine with it but I don't know if its adding much. He gets a lot of bone, Geen tripe??/ that gawd awful stuff in a can???? he loves that stuff but ewwwww LOL!
How often should he have that?

[hiphopboston]

Hi,
I rescued my Boston Terrier from a pet store...the reason I call it a rescue is that the poor little guy was not so well when we brought him home. He had giadaria while at the pet store which they apprently gave him meds for. Then a kennel cough vacitnations...maybe for his runny nose, lol. Anyway, he was on a high quality kibble but still had dierria (no I can't spell, lol) then blood in his stools, we rush to the vet they say he has coccidia! put him on a bland diet, boiled chicken or beef and white rice and on antibiotics, his face swelled up! back to the vet, they gave him prendozone shot and kept him the day, swelling went down gave him pendazone for home his face swelled up, off to emegency...we the parents have figured out it is the fillers in his meds...still had diarrea and noticed he was losing weight. Researched and researched everything. Finally went to store called Tail Blazers,and talked to them and the patrons for quite a while, and decided on a raw diet, but I am lazy so now what??? well Iput him on a food called Urban Carnivour and WOW so easy, he is doing so well within 4 days we took a stool sample to the vet, no coccida! Stools are normal now! and he is so damn happy and energetic! My vet does not support the idea but did ask for stool and a check up in 2 weeks to see if its really working. Now I am blending the diet for our older dog too. BARF does not need to be diffcult, there is the already prepared foods too, that come balanced and are so easy to serve. We also mix in organic pumpkin for extra fibre! I willnevr go back. Helped our sick puppy get better!

[hiphopboston]

Hi,
I rescued my Boston Terrier from a pet store...the reason I call it a rescue is that the poor little guy was not so well when we brought him home. He had giadaria while at the pet store which they apprently gave him meds for. Then a kennel cough vacitnations...maybe for his runny nose, lol. Anyway, he was on a high quality kibble but still had dierria (no I can't spell, lol) then blood in his stools, we rush to the vet they say he has coccidia! put him on a bland diet, boiled chicken or beef and white rice and on antibiotics, his face swelled up! back to the vet, they gave him prendozone shot and kept him the day, swelling went down gave him pendazone for home his face swelled up, off to emegency...we the parents have figured out it is the fillers in his meds...still had diarrea and noticed he was losing weight. Researched and researched everything. Finally went to store called Tail Blazers,and talked to them and the patrons for quite a while, and decided on a raw diet, but I am lazy so now what??? well Iput him on a food called Urban Carnivour and WOW so easy, he is doing so well within 4 days we took a stool sample to the vet, no coccida! Stools are normal now! and he is so damn happy and energetic! My vet does not support the idea but did ask for stool and a check up in 2 weeks to see if its really working. Now I am blending the diet for our older dog too. BARF does not need to be diffcult, there is the already prepared foods too, that come balanced and are so easy to serve. We also mix in organic pumpkin for extra fibre! I willnevr go back. Helped our sick puppy get better!

[Lolabee]

WOW what an amazing thread!! Ive read up a lot about this subject but I've never found anything as complete and detailed as this!!!
My question is, what kind of supplements should I be giving my puppy. She is 5 months old and already bigger and taller than the average full-sized bulldog!(eeps!)

[dewey1680]

I know this thread hasn't had a reply in a couple months, but hopefully someone will answer my question. Its a great read also. I am getting my puppy in 2 days, a 9 week old BC. Is it ok to start him on raw food right away, or should i give him a few weeks to get comfortable at his new home before i do that? Thanks to anyone who has an opinion.

[TulipRoxy]

Originally Posted by dewey1680

I know this thread hasn't had a reply in a couple months, but hopefully someone will answer my question. Its a great read also. I am getting my puppy in 2 days, a 9 week old BC. Is it ok to start him on raw food right away, or should i give him a few weeks to get comfortable at his new home before i do that? Thanks to anyone who has an opinion.

Others may have different opinions and experiences, but I know for us it worked great to start Roxy on raw from day one. She was on cheap kibble, and wasnt very healthy looking, so I wanted to get her on good nutrition right away. She didnt have diahrrea, or detox symtoms and seemed to adjest right away. Its a good idea to start with just one protein source for a few days, let them get used to it, and then start other types of raw meaty bones, veges, eggs, organ meat, and supplements if you chose to use them.

[Kinguni]

I'd start him on raw right away too. Here's a good article on raw feeding for a puppy: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/puppy-raw-diet/

[dewey1680]

Thanks for the replies. I guess chicken necks and backs would be good for him to start with? Not sure if i will use supplements to start with, but maybe this green tripe if i can find any around here. I guess supplements are not this most important thing to use? Thanks again in advance of any replies.

[TulipRoxy]

The main purpose of suppliments is to fill in any holes in the diet. If you are supplying a varied diet, with lots of different nutrients from different sources then you don't need to supplement. However some want to go the extra mile to make sure they're covering all the bases. Most supplements, except the fat soluable vitamins, won't do any harm and they provide some peace of mind.

[mrbreeeeze]

I would like to take the opportunity to thank everyone, especially technodoll, for thier input and expertise in this thread. I am new to the forum and just registered today. I found it because I have a very sick Mastiff and I'm looking for some help but thats another story and I will leave that to another thread. I did stumble across this one though and I've read about half of it now which seems to have started quite some time ago, and I will catch up on the rest later but for now I'd like to contribute this.

I used to haul grain around Alberta and one of the loads I carried alot of was corn destined for the Purina plant in Innisfail. Here I would pull in and they would take a sample from my load that needed to be tested before I could dump it. This test would take anywhere from 1 to 2 hrs. What puzzled me is that another truck would pull in next to me with a load of ground pork or chicken meal. This meal was a very fine and moist grind of all the left over parts of the animal from the processing plants that they came from. This load would also be tested but, this test usually only took 15 mins or so and the driver was given the go ahead to dump. I would think that the testing on the meal would be more vigorous than that of the corn but it seems not.

Anyway, I saw first hand the major ingredients that go into kibble and have wondered how a dog, or any pet, could live off this. After all, man cannot live on bread alone, why should dog? The problem is, I have two Mastiffs and I would never think that I could afford to feed them raw meat. I have a Mastiff book that states that in old times the only other person who could afford a dog like this, other than those of wealth and nobility, were the butcher, LOL. But after reading this forum, I now think that it is possible to switch over for around the same amount that I spend now. Right now my 2 dogs eat an 18kg bag of Pedigree per week at $30/bag. If this was a more premium food we'd be looking at $45/bag. So that $120 to 180/mos. Willy who is the sick one and is very underwieght right now, sits at around 140lbs. Mister, who is a healthy and solid powerhouse is at around 175. So, best case scenario is 350lbs combined. Based on the 1.5% figure that works out to about 160lbs of meat per month. I know I can get this meat for a maximum of $1/lb so that puts me a little above the mainstream brand and below the premium so I'm definitely right there and I'd know I'd be giving my boys something that is way better than even any premium food on the market can give them and add variety to thier lives. Am I willing to do the extra work? You bet! I already do that kind of thing with my family meals. I always buy bigger and cheaper and prepare and freeze meals so I know I can do this. I am now very excited about making the switch and I know my boys will love it and be happier and healthier because of it. Thanks again to everyone.

Mike

[MerlinsHope]

another stupid question. If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

Not stupid at all and very valuable!!!

Please be careful with additives. I know a lot of people have a tendancy to supplement, but if your dog is eating quality food there is no real reason to ever supplement, and if your dog is on a quality commercial food, it is balanced to offer their required amounts of minerals and vitamins and you'd again be 'over supplementing".

Cod liver oil should not be considered for dogs, it is too high in vitamin A and dogs do overdose on high levels of vitamin A and does not offer any viable source of Omega 3+6, which is why we feed fish pills in the first place.

Fish oils or fatty fish are good because they contain badly needed Essential Fatty Acids - this generally comes in the form of 3-fish oil, salmon oil, krill oils, and do be careful because you get what you pay for. There are a great many differences in the quality of these types of supplements and the poor quality ones should be avoided at all costs.

Dogs should never have brewers yeast. It's yeast. It causes candidae albicans in dogs.

Vitamin C. Healthy dogs produce their own vitamin C and don't require it the same way humans do. Unless your dog is sick and has osteo issues, and requires copious amounts of Ester C, it should be avoided because vitamin C is also an inhibitor and inhibits the digestion of other badly needed vitamins and minerals.

Probiotics, a canine's probiotic is green tripe. Not white tripe, but active, live green tripe, which is available in better pets stores in cans or frozen. If all else fails, natural, un flavoured, un-sweetened yogurt.

Flaxseed, again, this is great for people, but is poor source of omegas for dogs and contributes to hotspots and hepatic issues in many dogs. A better source for dogs is foods with EFA's (Omegas), the fish oils or fatty fish.

Interesting Read Source:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2641S

It's been my own experience that as much as we can, if we offer species specific foods like Mother Nature does, we rarely make mistakes with our dogs and with ourselves of course. If your dog is eating a quality diet there is little or no need for supplements.

One of the prime reasons raw feeders used to think that way was because they limited their diet to lesser quality meats, had all kinds of vegetable slurries going and didn't really try to emulate a complete diet through prey model feeding, so the addition of all these supplements was an attempt to try to ensure a safe level of vitamin content in the raw diet.

Times have changed and so has our knowledge of raw.

Best of luck
CHeers
MM

[Chantal.]

I'm getting my border collie tomorrow AM and want to start him raw right away. I'm petrified though...Really scared that I'm going to mess him up since he's so little and that maybe I should just chance dog food...

He;ll be almost 8 weeks old when I get him and after much research (still scared) this is the meal plan I have come up with using mostly a guideline I saw and a few changes.(stick to it for a few weeks while he is adjusted and until i see that he's ready for more variety and then phasing out the milk meals one by one at 3/4 months and 5/6 months. ).


Meal One
• Goat’s milk
• One whole egg (yolk and white, no shell)
• Whole milk yogurt

Meal Two
• Hamburger (to be changed with organ meat when ready)
• Whole milk yogurt
• Veggy Pulp (to be added when he's ready)

Meal Three
• Goat’s milk
• One whole egg (yolk and white, no shell)
• Whole milk yogurt

Meal Four
• Chicken wings or Chicken necks (to you think this is a good RMB to start with? and which one neck or wings or backs, or wholes.... i dunooo)\

And adding in a recreational bones too.

what do you guys think?

[MerlinsHope]

Chantal
Congratulations on your new puppy and on wanting to feed raw.

If your puppy was fed by his mom tomorrow at 8 weeks old, he'd still have loads of meat and some organ so there is no need to with hold organ meat ( till he's ready). His insides were born ready to consume meat, organs and blood and he's already got the appropriate teeth to pull and tear at carcass. Essentially it's still the 80% meat/ 10% offal / 10% bone theory. A chicken wing is 50% meat/ 50% bone ( no good). Chicken necks are 85% bone, and 15% meat ( very no good) . A chicken thigh is 80% meat, 10% bone ( excellent ) .

I would say by 10 days after this puppy is in your home, it no longer needs any goat's milk, it will never need the veggie pulp and there is nothing wrong with serving organs right away ( please realize that a heart is considered muscle meat, not offal), . Yogurt is readily and easily replaced by green tripe, and is far more nutritious for a dog, however, if you can't get your h ands on green tripe, please make sure the yogurt is unsweetened, unflavoured, active yogurt.

Why are you removing the egg shell?
It is imperative that your new puppy have calcium. Imperative, so take a moment to crush the shell and add it to the egg. Let the puppy play with egg shells if you can, chew on them, everything to encourage him to get to understand that it is a food source.


Your diet is missing the all encompassing Omega 3 + 6
You have not listed any source in your plan, so please include fatty fish. This is probably the one most single important source of food for your dog: Essential Fatty Acids. ( at least 3-4 times a week).

( anchovies, mackerel, salmon, sardines, smelts, char, trout) You absolutely need this in your dog's diet.

You need to ensure the regular addition of this in your puppy's diet throughout his life.

If you really want to start your puppy off right, please don't only rely too heavily on chicken wings because they are too boney. Please try to incorporate meaty thighs, meaty breasts with the wing, while hamburger is good as ad addivite to some meaty bone, your puppy has to masticate gristle and bone in order to achieve healthy teeth and gums, so large pieces of meat with some large bone on is great to encourage them to do this. ( pork chops, short ribs, blade roasts, etc), so add some real meat with that chicken wing ok?.

Here's an example of an appropriately sized piece of meat / bone for a young, inexperienced puppy. Before I cook it for the family, I cut off the bone, leaving enough meat on it for puppy. This puppy is 2 1/2 months old, well, "was" at the time.




PS: Personally I shun people giving their dogs chicken necks. Firstly there is not enough meat on it to consider it an appropriate food source, and your puppy can and will choke on it. If you want to feed a chicken neck, please make sure it's still attached to the chicken. It is at any day of the week a poor, poor food source for people attempting to feed raw.

Many people gravitate towards chicken necks simply because they are cheap. They make up all kinds of excuses for feeding them, but to me, the fact is, it's because of the price period. That's the same attitude and mentality that compels people to purchase cheap dog food as well. Positive nutrition, especially an appropriate raw regime is not about doing things on the 'cheap', it's about supplying your dog with quality nutrition, which doesn't have to cost a fortune either.

Best of luck.

[RaceRngr]

Ok, so I switched my dog to leg quarters for a whole week and he loves them, I think he likes the bones more then anything. My concern is that he isn't getting all of the nutrition he needs, I feel like I should be giving him potatoes or vegetables or something else to complete his meal. We haven't tried organs yet, but as of right now that is my big concern, making sure the meal is complete and developing a "routine."

[MerlinsHope]

Potatoes and vegetables

Your dog is not a human. if he was out there in the wild running with his brothers, they would not be hunting down potatoes and vegetables.

You MUST ensure that your dog has appropriate EFA's ( Essential Fatty Acids). Do NOT overlook this step

It means you must feed your dog fatty fish like smelt, sardines, mackerel or salmon and if you cannot, you need to supplement with the actual oil, which you can find in pill form at the health food store. It's normally guised as wild salmon oil, or 3-fish oil or krill oil. Do not buy Cod liver oil, that is not the same thing.

Again, you can't just feed meats. Your dog needs organs and a variety of meat. If your dog caught a chicken, he'd have meat, at least two kidneys, one heart and one liver.
So please remember to serve up some organs to balance out the meal.

If you're hell bent on feed vegetables gravitate over to GREEN tripe. This is also an essential ingredient in any raw diet. You can buy this fresh ( frozen) or in cans at the pet store.

MM

[RaceRngr]

I'm not hellbent on anything except doing the best that I can for my dog. I am just a little confused by everything I've read on here and other places. So if I just feed a variety of meat (mainly chicken, but beef and fish as well), bones, and organs, my dog will be ok and be getting everything he should be getting.

[MerlinsHope]

I am just a little confused by everything I've read on here and other places.

Don't feel bad about that. It happens. We are so conditioned to apply our human values onto our dogs that we have to teach ourselves to start thinking differently and to look at our dog as what they are... dogs... not humans. Always look towards Mother Nature, if you do, rarely will you make any mistakes.

Check your stools. They should not be white or yellow ( an indicator of too much bone in the diet).
Other than that, keep on truckin with the meats.
You can read more at rawpets.ca

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Cheers

[ankromjw]

Originally Posted by technodoll

there is so much to tell, yet so little! All i can say is that, after doing it for over two years now and knowing plenty of other folks who do, too - man, is it ever eeeeaaaasyyyy. all that hoopla about bacteria and veggie mush and storage and mess? it's just that: hoopla!
i started out with the BARF model and not only was it time-consuming, it gave my boy the runs: it was too complicated. He unfortunately was one of the 5% or so of dogs who just does not like raw food, so he's been on kibble for 6 months now and you know what? his coat is crappy, his teeth are yellow, and when the summer rush is over he is going back on raw whether he likes it or not.
So, i have now adopted (loosely!) the prey-model diet, my 7-mth old girl loves it and in fact i cannot get her to eat a fruit or a veggie no matter what i do to it, LOL! she just looks at me like but moooom, i'm a carnivore!
Storage: a little chest-freezer, and a plastic bin in the fridge for the defrosted stuff. i clean it every couple od days when i think about it. no big deal, no human food touches it.
Buying meats: i found a couple of butchers who have good prices on staples like beef heart, organ meats, ground beef, & goat. Green tripe i buy from holistic petstore. I check the weekly sales flyers for good deals on turkey, chicken and pork. Eggs are always cheap and i stock up on canned fish at the dollar store. My dogs rarely like raw fish, so i've stopped buying it. I also add plain yogurt, cottage cheese, olive oil, canned dog food, etc to the diet. And because i believe variety is the key to a healthy diet, my girl often gets a frozen whole-wheat bagel or slice of bread to snack on, sometimes with peanut-butter or cream cheese. Both dogs looove this oh and a couple times per week they get plate leftovers like pasta, soup, meat bits, cheese etc mixed in their dinners.
some dogs like their meats lightly seared, or room temp, or semi-frozen, or completely frozen. The warmer the weather, the colder they like their food. really up to you to experiment in what your dog likes, it's really fun too.
And for those who think all this is time-consuming... Once per month, it takes me 30 mins for a round-trip to the butcher's, and another 2 minutes to dump everything in the freezer. About 4 times/ week, before going to bed, i pull out stuff and let defrost in a big bowl on the counter overnight. Breakfast = select a piece of meat/ meaty bone, drop in dog's bowl, put bowl down, store the rest in the plastic bin in the fridge, wash hands.
OK i'm sure you have questions, i don't have time right now to write a book, LOL - ask away!

Hey I see you are an akita lady. Me too. This is my second one and nothing like my first one. Just like people, different huh.

[pick]

Sow let me see if I get the point: clean well the raw, select the kind and amount of bones and let them accustom to eat slowly raw food and all everything will going to be just fine is that all for begining?

Is there any age to start or can I started to feed in any time?

[SamIam]

Some puppies are fed raw right from weaning at the breeder's. As long as the diet is carefully balanced to support health and growth you can start a puppy with no problems.

[Masha]

Check out: www.rawmeatybones.com it has a lot of info on raw feeding which I used when i switched my guy to raw. A puppy can eat raw meat too, so can kittens. My sister's kittens have been raw fed since 4 months old.