#1
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declawing and circumcision - stirring the pot
Just read the post re: declawing and I agree with almost everyone - declawing equals mutilation.
So here goes - what about human male circumcision - isn't this mutilation? Even though both Jews and Muslims are required to do this, isn't it STILL mutilation. It seems to me that it is. From my understanding there are puhhhlenty of males on this planet (probably the majority) that have their foreskin intact, so i am not convinced there is a health issue on this one. So what do others think..... Curious, Lylag |
#2
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This will be a heated thread. I would say I have not looked into it as I do not have kids, but it is something to consider. I have heard that there are health implications regarding the remaining forskin, that I don't know for sure. If it was so, I would circumsize...
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#3
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That is true,people that are not circumsized are prone to catch diseases more likely thatn those who are circumsized.
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#4
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sorry heidiho but i think you are mistaken. I think this is an "old wive's tale"
If the risk is real then where ARE all these diseased men that still have their foreskins? I have had this converstaion with a quite few of my good foreskin intact male friends. Not one of them has ever had an issue relating to extra disease because of their extra skin. Besides how would the disease be contributed to some extra skin that was there when god put it there. Lets face it...it just dangles. The only thing I can think of is dirt. As long as you clean the foreskin properly there should be no issue with disease as far as my understanding goes. Lylag |
#5
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No it is not,but i am not gonna debate that here.
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#6
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I dont know where they are and i hope i never meet them.
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#7
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This may change in future generations, but currently, I'd say the major benefit is psychological, "fitting in" with the norm. When my hubby was in the army, the ones that weren't got major flack from the others. There were a couple that actually had it done because they were embarrassed. Sad, but that's how it was, and still is.
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#8
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Quote:
Quote:
Here is a quote from the WebMD site... Another reason parents have their sons circumcised is that circumcision lessens the chance of urinary tract infection in the first year of life. Also, later in life, a circumcised male has a lower chance of contracting a sexually transmitted disease than an uncircumcised male does. Quote:
So, there's my 2 cents. |
#9
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Thank you Sneaky that is exactly it.STD'S
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#10
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Declawing a cat vs circumcision? These are 2 totally different procedures. Times are changing with circumcision, true. Very touchy subject. I prayed for girls just so I wouldn't have to make the choice. My nephew is not ...he's 2 and doing fine. However, my g/f's son was not also.....and at age 7 began developing infections and other health issues. Had he been circ. at birth this would have been much easier on the child. Seven is a very tender age and he experienced a lot of pain,tears,embarrassment, and teasing from peers. Same thing with my 2nd cousin, he wasn't either and had to go through this at 12 years of age! I think it's a tough call and not a decision that can NOT be made lightly. Both parents need to weigh pro's and cons and make this difficult choice for their infant. Myself, I admit, I would probably have it done for fear of later complications.....but again, not sure.
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#11
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For me it seems to a simple question of cleanliness. If a parent cleans the baby's foreskin then incidence of UTI should go down.
Likewise a male that showers and cleans the forskin regularly should not have a greater of Incidence of UTI or STD as for the quote Quote:
I must say I am a bit surpised that nobody thinks that circumcision is mutilation. Ask yourself what IS mutilation? It is obviously something that humans have introduced into the culture, perhaps for suspicious reasons that were/are religiously based. I just don't buy the health reason. I mean if you don't clean your mouth or your pubic area....then yes obviously you are likely to have a higher chance of infection. Maybe laziness is the reason. Less skin equals less cleaning. But is that a good enough reason to take a blade to your child's penis? Still stirring.... Lylag |
#12
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Lylag, I honestly dont know what I would do. People have very strong views on this subject and both sides have valid points. I am grateful I need not have to worry about making such a decision
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#13
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I AGREE with Heidho and Sneaky....
This is a cleanliness and health issue...not an old wives tale. I have to say that for my little boy, I HATED doing it thinking about the pain but KNEW it was best. I looked into the ways they do it, the most pain free, and did the best thing as a parent I could do. When you have a little boy, his private parts are a very emotional thing to handle......if he is uncircumcised.....he needs to take care of that, and at a young age, he is UNABLE to REALLY care for it, and most boys (and KIDS in general) get laxidasical (spelling?) in hygenical routines. SOOOO, yes, I can take care of washing him now.....but soon he won't even want mommy in the room when he is changing, and then it will be his responsibility to care for himself, and I wouldn't want to put all of that responsibility on him to make sure he cleans EVERYTHING. He is a little boy and I am his mommy, and we made the best decision for us. I am for circumcision, and yes....even if it is for the reason of fitting in also....again, boy emotions are deep, and not likely open with others, so it is harder for them to discuss embarassing feelings of being different. It is good emotionally and physically. |
#14
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I do not have kids,but as far as i see it,this has been going on for years,if i had a boy,no doubt in my mind i would have him circumsized.
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#15
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Stbeachy......yes, see, that is what happened in both cases I mentioned I would assume. They got to an age where they were not about to let mommy clean them anymore of course and perhaps didn't do it or do it well or often enough.
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#16
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You are right also about emotionally,i can recall many a times me and the girls lookin at magazines and being grossed out by un circumsized, a mans private parts are soooo part of his ego and i would not want my kid to ever be laughed at when they got older.
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#17
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YEs....I DO have 2 boys......both circumcised. Like I said, I HATED thinking about it......but their daddy said DEFINITELY and explained to me WHY....and I agreed. I prayed the whole time my second was out of the room getting it done and cried with him.....but still, as a parent we have to do what is best. Do we leave a cut seeping open just to not have to put a kid through stitches.....no! They hurt sometimes worse than the cut, but we do what we have to do to protect our kids, and it ain't always the easy decision that is best.
BOYS are BOYS with BOY feelings......and this HAS to be taken in to consideration. ALSO putting kids under undue responsibility? Not necessary. You tell me one man that can even remember the procedure! They handled it better then than having to handle a health problem or an embarasing moment with other kids at a later time. My opinion! My kids! Like I said.....best decision for us! |
#18
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Quote:
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If you had a patch of skin covering your cooch, would you leave it there because god put it there? I'm sure you wouldn't, just as tons of women would have it removed as well. Sorry, I don't know if all women would but I know I sure would!! That is for sure. |
#19
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Yep,who would remember..
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#20
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My 2 cents My husband being from France,my 3 sons,1 born in Canada are not circumsized,are as healthy and clean as anyone else.
When I was asked about circumsizing my youngest,born here in Canada,I did not even know what it was and said no way In Europe it's a religious thing and noone else does it,I've seen a Jewish ceremony and I just about fainted,with the poor little baby howling in pain,it's cruel and unusual punishment IMHO. Everything we are born with,is there for a reason and "if it ain't broke,why fix it"
__________________
"The cruelest animal is the Human animal" 3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie |
#21
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I am not saying everyone that is not circumsized has disease,but they are more prone to it.And it is a choice thank god.
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#22
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hello but a little common sense goes a long way. well if you actually look at the use of that awful procedure it was developed at a time and in a society that often lived in harsh elements with little water and the ppl did not shower often. so cicumcision has no real place in todays western society as we have plenty of water and soap. as far as later complications, yes there is the odd case of complications in an uncircumcised penis but that is rare and easily treated. in third world areas i can see a useful application but that is it. if you do the boys why not the girls?? they do girls in many countries and it is a horrific, mutilating procudure and just inhumane. i see no difference for the boys either, as far as psychological probs go, well i think removing the fore skin could do that on its own, basically saying to boys that your body is wrong and we have to remove something, that to me is actually cruel. in australia you have to search long and hard for a doctor to do it anyway. no men in my family have had it done and they are all healthy, happy and intact. i see no reason to declaw a cat either, god put it there so why does it need to be removed?? and that my lovelies is my 20c worth.
__________________
REDUCE, RETHINK, REUSE, RECYCLE.. "We only Conserve what we love, We love only what we understand, we understand only what were taught"- David Suzuki....NO WAR. |
#23
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God put alot of things on people that shouldnt always be there and people have taken off.Like conjoined twins,should they not have surgery because all the pain they are going to endure?? Babies born with club feet,do we just leave them like that?? And so on and so on
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#24
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Like I say, both sides have valid points, however, the 2 young boys I mentioned in my thread were not "easily" treated. The both need to go into hospital and be circumsized at 7 and 12. Nothing easy about that, physically or emotionally.
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#25
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Quote:
Do women wash every time they pee? Nope, but as was mentioned - we wipe- and we don't have a foreskin. Women are encouraged to use panties that allow lots of air flow because anything that holds in moisture makes you more prone to infection. That is what foreskins do. Now back to the issue at hand: circumcision versus cropping. As far as I know, they are now numbing the penis before circumcising, and as far as I know they do not numb the puppies being cropped. So yes, I see one procedure as far more humane than the other. |
#26
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I have 2 boys and so researched this topic thoroughly when I was faced with that decision.
There are pros and cons to both arguements (very wishy-washy of me, I know). I know many intact men who have had problems, but I know an equal number of circumcised boys who developed problems as a result of their operations. I have to say, the problems of the intact men weren't nearly as bad as those of the poorly-healed circumcisions (ouch!)! The risk of disease is increased because of the cleanliness factor, as has already been pointed out, so I won't beat it to death. My final deciding factor was a conversation with my family doctor. I thought, being Jewish, he would be pro-circumcision all the way. His advice, however, was to "do what Dad did". In other words, the child's first memories will be comparing his penis to his father's. If the two are different, it could traumatize the child. Finally, I think it's highly unfair to compare declawing a cat with a male circumcision. Like I said, I discussed this issue with many men while I was making my decision about circumcision. I have yet to find a declawed cat who can tell me how he feels about losing his claws! |
#27
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"Do what Dad did"...........interesting!!!!!!!!
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#28
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now i would like to start this by stating this thread was not started by me, and the following is my belief or opinions of this hot topic. but it seems by this thread that i live in a very different society to many of you and that my countrymen hold very different beliefs on the topic (even my redneck friends dont do their kids), yay for my lovely australia.
sadly this is a thread based on wives tales and assumptions, and definatly not on medical fact. by the way, if you are to get an STD a foreskin makes no difference, what does the disease say 'wow well that is aclean skin so i will only go for one with flaps on it' my god stds dont work like that, when a uncircumsiced penis is fully erect the forskin folds back and it looks just like the rest, std susceptability just is a ridiculous excuse., that is like saying a black person is more suseptable to aids, duuuhhh, no common sense at all, why not go and ask a normal doctor. well i am glad i live in a country where it is not normal these days and hard to do, harldy anyone does it so by the time my nephew is a man it will be very normal to have a foreskin and no 'psychological' damage can be done further on.. and i dont see how there is any connection between physical deformities such as club feet and a foreskin, fore skin is not a physical deformity. but sadly this thread indicates this cruel practice will continue. oh and the argument of he wont look like daddy, i asked around today and every man i spoke to said they did not actually recall the look of their fathers penis and very rarely stand around looking at others. it is just another excuse to justify the procedure by ppl who have absolutly no idea what they are doing and no real reason so cannot justify subjecting a small child to it..well another 20cents spent
__________________
REDUCE, RETHINK, REUSE, RECYCLE.. "We only Conserve what we love, We love only what we understand, we understand only what were taught"- David Suzuki....NO WAR. |
#29
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Well, here comes my 20 cents too.
MY son DOES pay attention to his daddy's body parts......just because you asked GROWN men if they recall that, doesn't mean that they would recall that. Most of the time you forget things at the ages of 3 and 4, unless it is something traumatic.....like being different than daddy. To a child, that is a big deal, obviously, you have not gone through this, or you would know of all the questions of Why? and alot of why questions stem from something being different than that child. It is NOT mutilating, or inhumane. There ARE certain risks and as a mom, that is why I chose to make that decision. I can't comprehend putting a 7/12 year old through that like was above mentioned! At the age and time of the circumcision.....there is NO recolection of it! So....prayerfully, we did it and God truly was there and saw the procedure through, went great and healed great as the majority do. MY DOCTOR who did the circumcision, circumcised all of his boys. LUCKILY, most worlds are free for you too choose. I am not saying that it is wrong for you to choose other wise, however, it is NOT mutilization. And it is NOT wrong. I am comfortable in knowing that my boys are safe and healthy. AND guess what......I know this from EXPERIENCE. |
#30
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Since most of us here are females,it's kind of a strange subject
Another procedure that really bothered me since living in Canada,was how easily doctors recommend hystorectemys for the slightest medical problem. At 34yrs of age my husband decided to have a vasectomy,since we already had 3 sons.Our family doctor was strongly against it,suggested that I,a very healthy female,have a full hystorectemy(sp?),why bother with tubes tied,might as well eliminate any risk of disease!!! I was stunned at his reasoning and hubby eventually had his procedure and never regretted it for a moment. I am "all there"and at 60 have never had any problems,other than the dreaded menopause,which I successfully treat with herbal HRT. I know in Sweden,a hystorectomy is performed only in extreme circumstances not as a preventative procedure,actually the same goes for Cecarian(SP?)births,another many times expensive and modern procedure.
__________________
"The cruelest animal is the Human animal" 3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie |
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