My cat keeps pooping on the floor

[K_T]

My female cat has made a habit of pooping on the floor.

She is a tortoise cat. She is about 4 years old and is a few ounces shy of 20lbs. She is the "second" cat of the house. The cat that was here before her is a black&white male cat that is about the same age (maybe two weeks between them) and is about 14lbs. Both of them are strictly indoor cats.

She has always been very friendly and rather smart. She had some surgery done to remove a cat toy she had eaten, and she got a little meaner to the male cat. (She used to be a pushover when it came to him bullying her, but now she doesn't put up with anything.)

She is not very smart when it comes to using the litterbox, somehow. She all but sits down in it when she poops, so it clumps around her butt. She is obese, so she doesn't seem to bother with cleaning it off herself. It can get bad enough that she can't go anymore and she begins to vomit. Because of this, we clean her ourselves about once a week.

She hasn't always done this, either. She only started about a year ago.

The litterbox is and always has been located at the back of the garage and is easily accessible. It is very large and we have tried using both the clumping litter and the thicker kind for scooping.

There are some cats that hang around the garage door, and after reading up on it, I thought it might be because of them. They don't frequent that place much anymore, so I don't think it could be because of them anymore.

She almost always poops on the garage floor, though quite a ways away from the litterbox most of the time. (It's only almost every other day that she doesn't use the litterbox for this, but it's becoming more and more common now.) She pees in the litterbox just fine, though. She has even used the litterbox to pee and then got right back out of it to poop on the floor right in front of us.

We have tried scolding her immediately when it happens, using either a strong and upset tone of voice, spanking her (not my idea), or simply placing her back in the litterbox when it happens.

She doesn't seem to get the message that we're not going to tolerate this, even though she seems to know what she did wrong if we discover it hours after she'd done it. (She always runs and hides in fear when she hears us find it.) My mom is actually considering having her put down if she doesn't stop.

The last thing I can think of at this point is a diet problem, or some kind of thinking pattern that leads her to this. (Maybe for her, pooping in the litterbox means getting the litter clumped around her butt, which means either vomiting or unpleasant cleaning, so she thinks just not pooping in the litterbox will solve the problem?) Like, maybe if she were thinner, she could clean herself and it wouldn't be leading to something unpleasant.

I know she's obese, and I've been telling my mom that we should cut back on her food and put her on a serious diet ever since she started becoming too much to hold comfortably. My mom, not exactly a healthy weight either, has been in denial the past few years and has been unable to say "no" when the cat begs for treats (specifically shrimp), and has even switched them over entirely to the Friskies Party Mix rather than normal dry food. I myself know this is a horrible thing to do, but she won't listen to reason, insisting that they refuse to eat anything else.

I finally got her to agree to start them on a diet just today, but it's still not particularly healthy. It's the same party mix (but no additional treats), only put down every 6 hours. (6am-7am, noon-1pm, 6pm-7pm, midnight-1am) I have repeatedly suggested switching to something healthier, but she is totally adamant about them definitely refusing to eat anything else, and other lame excuses such as "if they're going to be miserable, they might as well eat something they like." She won't even take her to the vet to make sure this diet is alright!

I'll be taking over feeding them from now on, and I'll be trying to sneak a healthier food little by little to make her see that they will eat other things.

But this post isn't quite about me putting her on a diet. After she just pooped on the floor again today, I'm worried about what's going to happen if the diet doesn't work. What if even after she loses weight, she continues to poop on the floor? What else can I try to discourage her from pooping on the floor?

I'm hoping the people on this forum can help me. I really don't want to lose my cat over this.

[Shaykeija]

I would never "spank" a cat. That in my opinion is animal abuse. Then i would get the cat checked by a vet to rule out any illness. I would also be cleaning her butt everyday, if she cannot clean herself.

[Jim Hall]

i wou;d try anoth e box so you have two make the second box with very low sides oreven use a covering on the floor and put the litter on that I agree that a vet visit would be in order

Cats do noot generally accept negative training either

[luckypenny]

I agree with Jim, a second litter box would be a good idea. Please make sure that you clean them both out daily as dirty litter boxes may prevent your cat from using them.

Here's an exceptional website that will help you understand feline nutrition and how best to switch your cats over to a better quality food (ideally canned and/or raw). Cats should not be put on a "diet" as severely restricting food intake can cause fatty liver disease. A switch to a better quality wet food may be all that's needed to get your kitty to an appropriate weight.

http://catinfo.org/

[14+kitties]

I see a few problems here. One being the horrendous "diet" she is on. Cats should never have a diet of dry foods to begin with. They are obligate carnivours - meat eaters. They can not thrive on a diet filled with grains, corn, and by products. To make it worse they are being fed a diet of treats? There is nothing redeeming health wise in treats. Cats also need taurine in order to survive. Without it their health will suffer greatly and eventually death. Now I don't have a bag of the Party Mix treats in front of me at the moment but I don't believe they contain taurine.
Cats should be fed a good quality canned food or, as LP mentioned, raw. It does not sound to me that your mother is up to feeding them raw but the canned food is something that is necessary for both of the cats' continued health. Good quality food can be found at pet food stores like Global, Pet Valu, etc. It can not be found at grocery stores. Saying this - if budget does not allow then a diet of Fancy Feast (pate style) would at the very least be better than a diet of continual dry treats. Dry cat food and treats are sprayed with a substance to make them more acceptable and unfortunately more addicting to cats. Transitioning them to a canned cat food diet will take some time and persistence but will be well worth it. Please take the time to read the web site that luckypenny linked for you. It is a very valuable tool.
A healthy diet with a slow weight lose (1 pound a month/six weeks or so) will make for a much happier, healthier cat.

Now - the pooping issue - Cats do not equate a swat on the butt or wherever to pooping in an inappropriate place. Cats equate a swat as a hateful and despicable action. They don't know they are being hit for doing something wrong. They just know the person doing the hitting is the one who is supposed to love and care for them. Not harm them. Cats simply do not think that way.

As JimHall said adding another box may help solve the problem. Here are some more ideas that may help. -
How often is the litter box cleaned? Cats are fastidious in their cleanliness. They hate using a dirty box.
Is it open or closed? Some cats do not like a closed in feeling.
The size in this case may not matter because you said it is a large box. However, because of your cat's size she may feel uncomfortable defecating in a box that she considers too small. Another box added and a larger one may do the trick.
You mentioned the box was in the garage. What are the chances that the cat may have been frightened by a loud, sharp noise from either inside or outside the garage at one point when she was using the box? It could be she now associates that noise with that action. Is there a spot in the house you could add a box where it is quiet and there is no chance of disturbance?
The sitting down when she poops is most likely because of her size. Have you ever tried holding on balance a heavy body while pushing a large obstacle out of your body? Not comfortable at all.
Did the inappropriate defecating happen before or after surgery? It is possible she is associating the litter with the pain of recovery as well. A brand new box kept meticulously clean may help with that. There is a product out there called Cat Attract that is used in the litter box to help get the cats back to using their boxes. http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=2751734

There is also the medical issue. That is the very first avenue I would be taking. Cats do not defecate outside their box without there being a reason for it.

I'm sorry for the large amount of information. I am also sure I missed something. There will be others along to give more info soon I'm sure.

[sugarcatmom]

Oh my goodness, I feel so sorry for this poor girl (the cat, I mean). You've already received some excellent advice (definitely ditch the dry - your cat's life depends on it. And get another litter box) so I won't repeat it. Just a couple things:

Originally Posted by K_T

She doesn't seem to get the message that we're not going to tolerate this, even though she seems to know what she did wrong if we discover it hours after she'd done it. (She always runs and hides in fear when she hears us find it.)

How sad. She isn't running and hiding because she knows she shouldn't have pooped outside the box, she's hiding because she's afraid of getting punished. She does not understand why. This only serves to add to her stress, which will do nothing to help the situation. She probably feels enough anxiety already surrounding the whole litter box thing because cats really would prefer to use them when they can. When they stop, it's because something is terribly wrong in either their environment or with their health. It's your job to find out what that is and fix the situation.

Originally Posted by K_T

My mom is actually considering having her put down if she doesn't stop.

So your mom basically created the problem in the first place, and now wants to dispense the ultimate punishment in revenge? Is her garage floor really so much more precious to her than a living, feeling, being?

[14+kitties]

Just wanted to add something. How are you cleaning up after the kitty? Are you just cleaning up the poo and washing with a detergent? I would advise using a cleaner such as Nature's Miracle. You may think the area you cleaned is clean but she will still be able to smell her feces. Cleaning with an enzyme cleaner like NM will help neutralize the smell left behind. If she can't smell anything she may start using the box again. My gut feeling though says she is using the floor because of the health issues she is experiencing with the crappy "food" she's on.

[Love4himies]

I am so glad you are looking for advice to help your cat

You have gotten some very good advice.

I can't stress enough that a cat stops using a litterbox for a reason, either it associates the litter box with a stressful event such as painful poop/pee, health, or fear (another cat attacking or a loud noise when using the box). Punishment will only worsen the matter and not help.

A quality canned will absolutely help your cat with the weight and health

[K_T]

Thank you so much, everyone. I'm glad I got replies so quickly, or this could have turned even worse... Thank you...

I tried to be as detailed as possible, but I guess I kind of forgot a few things.

In addition to the Party Mix, we usually fed them Fancy Feast canned food and shrimp. I was misinformed before posting here. I was told that it should be dry food that they eat for a diet, so I had convinced my mom to stop putting it down so often. Should I switch to only putting down the canned food? I'm not sure about it, because our vet said it was bad for their teeth to only eat canned food. I've also gotten mixed opinions about the shrimp-- some say it's great for protein, but others say it shouldn't be used as a substitute for protein. (Which it probably would be the best source of protein out of what's available in the house at the moment...)

While still on the food, what brand would you recommend we switch to to help the female cat lose some weight while still being healthy?
(Edit: Another problem is that they haven't wanted to eat healthier food... Asking my parents, I'm getting mixed recollections. According to one of them, they refused to eat it at all, even when it was the first and only thing we gave them when we first brought them into the house. According to the other, they ate little to none of it, which sounds like it wasn't bad, since I've also been told that they'll instinctively eat more or less depending on the nutrients they require.
So, are there also any tips for getting them to eat a healthier canned food that they seem to out-right refuse to eat?)

The litter pan we currently have is.. really, seriously big. About 3 1/2 feet long and a little over a foot wide, and uncovered. We used to have a smaller one that we'd been using for cats before these two that was covered-- we only switched to this bigger one when it was suggested that the size of the litterbox was the problem. (Also, the only way it can be so big is because it's not really something meant to be used for a litterbox... but our old box was bigger than what they sold in the stores near us at the moment, so there wasn't anything bigger.)

The litterbox is almost always clean, too. We end up picking it or at least checking it anywhere from 4 to 8 times a day.

The garage is kind of a noisy place, (washer/drier, my dad works there a lot and has a bad temper that ends in loud shouting, and our nextdoor neighbors never have their car radio volume below maximum) but they've been using it out there since we adopted them.

And like I said, she's used it to pee and then pooped on the floor immediately afterwards, so I don't know what a second litterbox would do... If you still think a second one, a different one or putting it somewhere else would be good, then I'll do it.

She had a few "accidents" in the hallway before the surgery, but we got her to stop that pretty quickly. I don't think she started using the garage floor until a couple months after the surgery.

The way we clean up the messes depends on where it was. If it was on the concrete of the garage floor, we scrub it really well, even get down on the ground and make sure that we can't smell it anymore. (Probably still not good enough-- I'll make a note to buy Nature's Miracle ASAP) If it's on carpet, we wash the area and then sprinkle a powder down. I'm not sure what exactly the powder was (I've never been around to see the can, so I don't even know where it's kept), but it's got a strong smell to it and has discouraged at least two generations of cats from using that area as a litterbox...

As for the "discipline" we've used until now... I've never felt it was a good idea. I've tried telling my mom it's not a good way to go about it, she seems to understand, but at the same time we know my dad doesn't have a lot of patience and has a bad temper. If it were him who found the mess in the garage, there would be much loud shouting and chasing after her...
My mom's excuse for wanting to have her put down for it is either "she's (my mom) too old for this" (even though I'd clean it up if she didn't) or "I'd rather have her put down than have your father scream at her or beat her for it."

They're both very stubborn people who have the worst time admitting or accepting that they may be wrong about something or have a problem. (My dad's temper, for example. He refuses anger management, among other things.) If I had the ability to live on my own and take the cats with me, I'd do it...

All of it really scares me. The way both of them have gone about caring for these cats and their reactions to trying to correct this issue have left me crying for them several nights now.

[14+kitties]

Sounds like you are in a bit of a tough situation. I sympathize. A noisy, anger filled area would be enough to scare any cat (and a lot of other entities) into eliminating in wrong places.
Is there any way you could keep the girl kitty in your room with you? Sometimes being confined to one room with a clean litter box makes the cat realize that the box is where she is supposed to be going. Only thing is if you are willing to try that make sure everything is picked up off the floor and your bed is covered with an old blanket you don't care if she soils. That way at least it's an easy clean up.
Are her stools firm or loose (diarrhea like)?
I would still think a vet visit is in order though. It is possible your cat is suffering from Irritable Bowel Disease which would have been brought on by the less than kosher food she has been eating. She needs to go on a good quality, grain free (if budget allows) diet of just canned food. For her sake that has to happen or she will be being put down. Not for eliminating inappropriately but for ill health. Dry food can also cause a multitude of very expensive health issues for your boy kitty.

[K_T]

Misinformation and stress in the household right now is what's really making this so hard... everyone's angry at each-other because we're all being told by each-other that someone's doing something wrong.

At the moment, there isn't any way for her to be kept in my room. It's a little complicated to try and explain, but years of being guilted into keeping things has made my room very messy and unmanageable. We have been working on setting up a yard sale and getting my mom to chill and let me get rid of all the stuff I don't want finally. So for now, there's no room for a litterbox in my room. On top of that, my bed is a queen size with nice sheets... there aren't old blankets big enough to cover the whole thing, and I'm a very violent sleeper. My room is also very warm because I get very cold very easily, while the female cat seems to get hot very easily. All in all, my room would be a very hard place for her to be all the time.

They seem firm to me from the times I've cleaned it up. (Hard to tell which cat it was that left it in the litterbox, but the boy has never gone on the floor.)

The last time we were at the vet for a checkup (a couple months ago, when this problem was very much less common, but was still happening every once in a while), the vet said she was fine, aside from her weight. I would personally like to take her in again to make sure and ask for their opinion on how to go about the diet, but my mom doesn't share in that. I'm getting overly worried to the point I can't sleep, though, so I'm going to end up paying for the checkup myself, just to make sure.

But the diet is definitely what we should work on...
So, even if she doesn't have IBD, she should go on the canned food exclusively? (just reminding, it's Fancy Feast) Would the shrimp help or hurt the diet after that?
The boy cat has been difficult about what he'll eat... it's him that started this Party Mix thing in the first place. After he tried it, he started to refuse to eat anything else. I think the girl cat was fine with the normal food while having canned food and shrimp as well, but she was still pretty big (not AS big) when we were feeding her like that.
I'm not sure what dry food we were feeding them before the party mix, but I think it was Friskies. (Which I've heard is pretty much junk..)
And again, we tried to have them eat only healthy stuff before we tried to give them anything else when we first brought them into the house. But, like I said, I'm getting conflicting information about whether they refused to eat it or if they only ate a little bit of it.
(Just a side note, the boy's health is mostly good, but he has chin acne which our vet treats with steroids and we wipe his chin daily with peroxide as instructed by the vet, and dandruff that we treat with special shampoo. The steroids are because they seem to be the only thing that'll make his chin stop itching. If it itches, he scratches it 'till it bleeds, and it could get infected. So the steroids seem like the best choice.)

I'm sure we'd have no problems cutting back on other things if the healthier food was that much more expensive, but the problem is actually getting them to eat it. Dry food seems easy enough to introduce, mixing it with the unhealthy stuff by a percentage over like 2 weeks. (Though it didn't seem to work the first time...) But canned food sounds a little trickier, and I wouldn't know how to go about it.
But I'd be willing to try anything.

Another question is about the leaving food down at designated times... It's making me worry horribly, even though they do eat every time we put the food down. The canned food, we left down the whole time since it's kind of hard to preserve for later.

A major problem with all of this is that they don't seem to like the same things exactly. Even the party mixes they like are different kinds. The boy cat mostly only licks the gravy off of canned food anymore. I'm stressing thinking what to do to please both of them, and it all comes down to methods of getting them to eat something they refuse to eat, which I have yet to encounter. So I guess I'd mainly like suggestions for that.

[14+kitties]

If you take the time to read through the website given to you earlier it has some tips on how to get kibble addicts to eat healthy, wet food.
Lots of misinformation out there as to what is good, what isn't. Unfortunately when you have the very people who are supposed to be looking after your cats' health telling you that a diet of only canned food is bad because it doesn't look after their teeth it sure doesn't help, does it? Truth be told the dry food causes more issues with teeth than does the can. If you really want to keep a cat's teeth clean you would either brush them yourself (sometimes a battle until you get kitty used to it) or you can put down a raw chicken neck for kitty to munch on. Nothing better to clean the teeth than something they can sink their teeth into and really have to work at chewing it.
Here's a nice, short article that explains a few things correctly -
http://www.cathealth.com/food-wet-dry.htm
I think a few of the things that desperately need to change in your home are:
Less stress - less yelling, NO corporal punishment for the cats' mistakes. It could very will be that this punishment has made the issue as bad as it is now, not better. Cats are like little sponges. They pick up quickly on vibes in a household.
Ditch the dry - canned only. Even if it is only the FF pate style foods. Canned food can be left down all day long with no ill effects. Yes, you may have to poke around and find something your cats both like. Yes, it may take a while. But it is critical for both your cats' health.
Diet - please do not rush on expecting your cat to lose weight. It took her a long time to get to this point. It will take longer to lose it. You can look at it this way - equate 1 pound of cat weight to 20 pounds of human weight. Compare how long it would take a human to lose that 20 pounds on a sensible diet. That should be the amount of time it will take your kitty to lose 1 pound. But please, at the same time, do not starve your cat! That can lead to fatty liver disease which, if not caught and treated fast enough, can kill your cat.
Try spending 10 to 15 minutes a few times a day playing with your kitty. Maybe dangling a want type toy above her head so she has to make some effort to get it or walking around with a string trailing behind you. That's a popular one in my home.
Please note - talking to your vet about your cat's diet when your vet has already told you that dry food is what cat's should be eating will do your cat no good. The carbs in the dry food is what made the cat fat in the first place. She simply will not lose weight eating dry food!

If you can work on that (the underlying issues) you may well find that the litter box issues will solve themselves. Although, knowing that the box is in a very noisy garage with lots of loud noises, I still feel that one of those loud noises just may have thrown her off using the box to defecate.

[chico2]

K_T,I have read through all the posts and you've had some great advice from some of our kitty-gurus.
It's unfortunate some some vets still recommend dry food for cats,because of their teeth.
It's absolutely not true and most vets today know that.
Also do not ask your vet for diet food,it will more than likely be Hill's or Science diet dry.
Instead go with what you have found out here,if you parents are not willing or cannot buy the more expensive grain-free canned,such as Wellness,Merrick,Evo etc... Fancy Feast "pate"type will have to do.
Dry food for your male cat,can give him kidney-problems and the girl obviously obesity,which on it's own can cause many health-problems.
I too have an overweight cat,with semi-long hair and I have to clean his butt all the time.

Another thing,hitting a cat or any animal, for pooping inappropriate,is terrible,but I sense you know that already and hate it,the cat gets insecure and stressed,which in itself can cause her to have bad litter-habits or other stressrelated symptoms
I realize it must be difficult when you are not the sole caregiver for these kitties,but please do the best you can,work on your dad,yelling and screaming at a cat,will only make things worse,they are very sensitive and stress easily.
Hopefully your parents will listen to you,or better yet,maybe read the good advice you have recieved.
It would be very tragic if a cat would have to die,because of something she probably cannot help,having animals also include helping them out when there is a problem,killing them because of it,is outrageous.
I sense that you love the cats very much and I sincerely hope,things will change for the better for them and you.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by K_T

Should I switch to only putting down the canned food?
.......
So, are there also any tips for getting them to eat a healthier canned food that they seem to out-right refuse to eat?

These 2 videos have great descriptions of how to make the switch from dry to wet food. I think they will help you quite a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZv0P...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NWXk...layer_embedded

Originally Posted by K_T

I'm not sure about it, because our vet said it was bad for their teeth to only eat canned food.

Ya, many vets are rather clueless about feline nutrition and what cats should or shouldn't be eating. They don't receive any decent training on the subject in school, and unless they specifically pursue ongoing education from UNBIASED sources, then all they know are what the pet food company reps tell them (very biased). Pet food companies would rather have every pet on the planet eating 100% kibble because that's where they make their biggest profits.

Originally Posted by K_T

I've also gotten mixed opinions about the shrimp-- some say it's great for protein, but others say it shouldn't be used as a substitute for protein.

Shrimp as an occasional treat is okay, but I wouldn't use it as a regular protein source. Seafood is actually not a natural food for cats and can be a common allergen (which might be part of the problem with your boy kitty's chin acne).

Originally Posted by K_T

While still on the food, what brand would you recommend we switch to to help the female cat lose some weight while still being healthy?

I personally prefer that cats eat a variety of wet food (different brands and flavours). This lessens the potential for addictions and allergies to occur, and also minimizes the impact that a food with "issues" might have on overall health. For instance, there is a really good brand called Wellness that recently had a recall due to insufficient thiamine levels in some of the batches of canned. Those cats that exclusively ate Wellness would have been more at risk than the ones who also ate other brands.

Here are some of the better commercial products available (none from a grocery store, by the way). You can find a store locator on their websites:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/recip...x?pet=cat&ft=2
http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/cat/can/all
http://www.naturapet.com/brands/evo.asp
http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/...at_food_32.php
http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/canned_cat_food.php
http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=187
http://www.bynaturepetfoods.com/prod...es/catmain.php
http://www.evangersdogfood.com/cat/superpremium.html

Now some cats can develop gastrointestinal issues when foods are switched too quickly, but I don't think this is as common as we're led to believe. There are ways to help minimize GI problems, like adding probiotics or slippery elm bark powder, and many cats will eventually overcome this tendency once their overall health improves on the better food.

Originally Posted by K_T

Also, the only way it can be so big is because it's not really something meant to be used for a litterbox... but our old box was bigger than what they sold in the stores near us at the moment, so there wasn't anything bigger.

I don't use "official" litter boxes either. They're all way to small for what you pay for, so I get those Rubbermaid under-the-bed storage boxes instead.

Originally Posted by K_T

The litterbox is almost always clean, too. We end up picking it or at least checking it anywhere from 4 to 8 times a day.

Fantastic! You also want to make sure you're using an unscented litter, and that the entire box gets a periodic washing with an unscented cleaning product (like vinegar and baking soda).

Originally Posted by K_T

And like I said, she's used it to pee and then pooped on the floor immediately afterwards, so I don't know what a second litterbox would do...

Some cats don't like to pee and poop in the same box. That's how my 3 younger ones are. I have 2 boxes side-by-side in the Kitty Room and they all go pee in one box, then immediately move over to the other box to poop in.

Originally Posted by K_T

I'm not sure what exactly the powder was (I've never been around to see the can, so I don't even know where it's kept), but it's got a strong smell to it and has discouraged at least two generations of cats from using that area as a litterbox...

Be careful with some of the cleaning products out there, they can actually be toxic to cats. Especially if they walk on it and then lick it off their feet, but even inhaling the "fumes" can cause respiratory and eye issues. An enzyme cleaner would be a better choice.

Originally Posted by K_T

All of it really scares me. The way both of them have gone about caring for these cats and their reactions to trying to correct this issue have left me crying for them several nights now.

Aww sweetie, I'm sorry you're in this position. You clearly love these cats and want to do what's best for them. My only advice is to just lead by example at this point, rather than trying to talk some sense into your parents. People often get defensive when they're told that the way they've been doing something all this time has been wrong. Hopefully your parents can learn from your actions.

[K_T]

Thanks so much, again, everyone. Sad to say my mom is being fussy and defensive about all of this. Insisting she knows everything and all that. (Her most common defense is that she's been raising cats for over 20 years, so she sees hardly any reason to change what she's doing.) Though, I can see where she's coming from with most of her arguments. A lot of the methods that have been suggested, I'm finding out are things she had tried unsuccessfully before. I'm not sure if it's a patience thing or not, (she usually has more patience than I do when it comes to these things) but I'd still like to try all of it again at least...

Another problem is that we have two cats who eat differently... The girl cat that we're trying to have lose weight will eat the canned food, but the boy cat will only lick the gravy off. Neither of them are very fond of the pate, either. The boy cat doesn't look like he can afford to lose much weight, either, so I'm kind of scared of trying to switch them both. Between the steroids and his metabolism, he's quickly losing weight right now as it is, so I'm worried that trying to switch them may be too much for him. (He may be about 14lbs, but he's already starting to look unhealthily thin. Most of his weight comes from muscle, I guess.)

From what I recall on any of the sites posted here, what was suggested there was putting him in a different room. Putting him in a different room to feed him differently... doesn't seem to be having much results. He's almost mostly uninterested in designated feeding times as it is, so putting them in separate rooms (either of them) isn't really doing much. Have tried feeding him from a dish, from our hands, on the floor..
If we tried putting the food somewhere where he could just pick at it all day like he's used to, the girl cat would definitely go and eat it instead.

Another problem came up with suggesting switching to the canned food.. Even though it's been said multiple times in this thread and on those sites, the teeth problem... Only one of our cats (we've had about 8 in total, but the most crowded it's gotten was 5 at once) ever ate ONLY canned food, and he's the only cat that had dental problems, even when we had his teeth professionally cleaned twice a year. He had to have almost all of his teeth pulled.
So I'm not only worried about that, but my mom will probably refuse putting them on only or mostly canned food because of that experience.

Regarding exercise, we try to keep them busy. We play with them for almost 2 hours total a day, sometimes more between all members of the household. The boy cat is far more active (he'll run around more) when he plays, and he often takes over playtime because of it. The girl cat is more aggressive (she'll beat the crap out of the toy) when she plays, but she doesn't get up and run around as much, and it's hard to get her to since, as mentioned, the boy cat takes over playtimes. (easily jealous, we think?)
It's weird. Even though she doesn't seem to tolerate any of his bullying anymore, she'll still back down if there's something he wants. She'll go wait somewhere else for him to get tired before jumping in to play. If we try to separate them to let her play more, she'll still back down for a long time for some reason, even if he's on the other side of the house. Not to mention he seems to have the ability to sense when she's getting attention and he isn't from someone. (Even if someone is in the other room with him, he'll want out to go see what's going on.) Maybe it's hearing him go nuts in that other room that makes her back down as if he were there?

[14+kitties]

Yeah, that old fallacy about dry food cleaning teeth. It doesn't. I would think you've been extremely lucky to have had only one cat with tooth issues.
If you watch the way cats eat dry food IF they bite into it at all it shatters. The small pieces then lodge up around the gumline causing tarter problems. In a lot of cases cats don't even bother to chew their dry food. They basically suck it up and swallow it whole. If that is the case with your cats then no, it would not cause tooth issues. Like I stated earlier - a raw chicken neck or chicken back once a week or so for the kitties to chew on would do more good for their teeth than most anything.
I understand the defensive. Most people who have cats feel they know the best they can for their cats. Sadly that is not normally the case. Cats are dying earlier and earlier due to poor health brought on because of their diets. I am currently the caretaker/slave/servant/snuggler/etc for 50 kitties. I can't tell you how much I have learned since starting my sanctuary and educating myself about cats more. It's been eyeopening. I have learned a lot right here on Pets from a couple of our kitty gurus as far as feeding goes. L4H and SCM have both answered you here. Their advise is priceless.
The biggest thing with cats is you have to have the patience of a saint!!! Last year I had a cat who developed liver issues. She stopped eating. It took me a long long time (over three months) of force feeding and giving her subQs before she finally deigned to start eating on her own again. So I can understand your mother saying yes, she's tried everything. But how long did she try for? PATIENCE is key!!!
BTW - you said your boy cat is losing weight at an alarming rate. Has he had a complete blood panel done lately to determine what exactly is going on with him? That sounds pretty unusual to me. Also - do you use plastic dishes to feed? If so please change to glass, stainless steel or ceramic dishes. Plastic contains particles which leach out and can cause the chin acne you spoke of.

[K_T]

Her issue with the raw chicken neck is the bones... I don't eat much meat myself, so I don't know the first thing about feeding certain meats to cats. I mean, common sense would say to remove the bones... but I don't know, maybe that's nonsense coming from this almost-vegetarian.

I think she mostly tried to introduce healthier food with the mixing method over two weeks time and gave up when they weren't eating enough. I'll personally begin using the second method of weening them or at least cutting down on their dry food mentioned in those videos. (Leaving down canned food all the time and only putting down a small portion of dry food at designated times.) Well, I will when I find out how many calories they need and I can clear up the chicken neck issue... I would immediately do it and accept/pay for the consequences if their teeth rot, but I myself don't have an actual income to pay for kitty dental bills, so the shouting that would go on over that would be horrendous...

We've tried different food dishes because of the boy cat's acne. We use glass or ceramic dishes for their food and what I think is steel for the water dish (which has been left down the entire time and been cleaned several times, btw.)

Another thing that was brought up when talking to my parents about switching their foods was when we go away. We take a yearly trip for about three days, and sometimes visit family that is pretty much across the country for up to two weeks. We couldn't monitor their food while we're gone, and our neighborhood turned "bad" at some point under our noses, so there's no-one to house-sit and feed the cats.
We can't take them with us because of either space in the car, the hotel we're staying at doesn't allow pets even if we pay extra, the extra we would have to pay would be crippling, the family members we're staying with has pets and our cats don't play nice with others, or the family members we're staying with absolutely hate pets and wouldn't allow us to stay there with our cats.
What we usually did was leave down several litter pans and one or two large tupperwares of dry food and water.
I don't know about how that would affect the transition from dry to wet food, (or how it would affect them if they'd been successfully weened off of dry food completely) but at the moment, my mom is convinced it'd completely screw it up, so she's reluctant to try it.
The easiest solution should be "don't take trips like that," and I wouldn't have a problem with canceling the yearly trip (it's mostly for me) if it was really that serious, but my grandparents are getting old and my parents feel the need to be there with them when their health takes a turn for the worse, so it really can't be completely avoided. (I'm pretty sure they'd never trust me to stay here alone to look after the cats while they visited their parents.)

I'll ask about having a blood panel done when we bring him in. I'm kind of thinking we're mostly being paranoid, since he's really skinny to begin with. My mom can easily be seeing things out of paranoia, and her mentioning it can make me paranoid...

Another thing that we noticed is that the girl cat isn't drinking as much. They haven't been eating enough of the canned food for how little she's been drinking, I think. She usually plays in the tub with a little bit of softly running water when someone goes to the restroom. She lets herself get all wet and drinks a little from the faucet. She hasn't drank from there today.

Here's hoping she's not going to go all defensive elitist about having the blood panel done, though. Even though she's the one being loudest about this, she doesn't seem to be bringing much to the table or agreeing with suggestions...
I've printed out all the replies on the forum so far, including the sites posted (with editing on how I describe her and my father and the "finger pointing"-- I don't need them getting angry about that), which I'm hoping she'll see some reason in to at least try all of it again. After her reaction to the videos, though, I'm worried she won't. (The same "I've tried that, it doesn't work" stuff.)

[14+kitties]

Here's a couple of excerpts from the site www.catinfo.org that you and your mother may find interesting. Please remember this was written by a vet who realized just how much damage was/is being done to cats by feeding dry food. Remember these are only excerpts. There is much more interesting reading on that site which is why we encourage people to read the whole thing.

Under - Transitioning dry food addicts to canned food.....

The key is to do it slowly and with patience and incorporate various tricks for the stubborn cats. The most important issue is actually making the change, not how fast you accomplish it. I must say that my cats tested every ounce of patience I had over a 3 + month period of time during their transition from dry to canned food. They had been on dry food their entire lives and did not recognize canned food as food. My cats ranged in age from 2 years to 10 years at the time of the transition.

The single biggest mistake I see people make time and again is to say that their cat "won't touch" the new food and then panic and fill up the bowl with dry food. In many cases, it is simply not that easy to get cats off of dry food. (See Molly's Story for a look at one very stubborn cat.)

Under - Dental Disease .....

First, dry food is hard, but brittle, and merely shatters with little to no abrasive effect on the teeth. Second, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat - not biting down on dry kibble. Third, many cats swallow the majority of their dry food whole.

Under - Home prepared and commercial raw meat diets......

There are several ways to feed a raw meat diet. One way is to prepare the diet yourself using a very simple recipe. This is my preference so that I can control the ingredients that go into the diet and control how the diet is prepared - including how the meats are sourced. My cats have been thriving for the past 7 years on a raw meat diet that I prepare using either ground whole carcass rabbit from a reputable farm, or whole meats (chicken thighs) from Whole Foods Market that I grind myself after parboiling. I add just a few supplements and water to complete the diet.

Note that I do parboil (~10% of the outside is cooked to kill any surface bacteria) the chicken thighs that I get from Whole Foods Market but I feed the whole carcass rabbit in the raw form.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by K_T

Insisting she knows everything and all that. (Her most common defense is that she's been raising cats for over 20 years, so she sees hardly any reason to change what she's doing.)

Anyone who insists they know everything, clearly doesn't . The reason she needs to change what she's doing is right in front of her nose. Forget about all the other cats she's owned (although I'm curious to know what happened to them), the 2 cats she has now are in extremely poor health and will be lucky to survive into middle age (euthanasia threats aside) - ALL BECAUSE OF THEIR DIET!!!! I can't stress this fact enough. Obesity is caused by diet. Constipation is caused by diet. The itching and dandruff, caused by a poor diet. It's so simple really. Garbage in = garbage out. You are what you eat. How much does your mom spend on vet visits and steroids and special shampoos? Doesn't it make more sense to spend that on better quality food, and have happy healthy cats instead?

Originally Posted by K_T

A lot of the methods that have been suggested, I'm finding out are things she had tried unsuccessfully before.

And how hard did she try? Did she pick up the bottomless bowl of dry food during this time? 2 weeks is a puny effort. For some cats it can take months. Kibble is highly addictive, but I promise you there is not a cat on this planet that can't be converted to a better diet with enough patience and persistence. Me thinks your mom has given up too easily.

Originally Posted by K_T

Neither of them are very fond of the pate, either.

There are plenty of decent foods that aren't pate. Merrick, Halo Spot's Stew, Nature's Variety Homestyle, Wellness pouches, Weruva, ect.... But the other factor is that they probably haven't been motivated enough to like it. If they still have access to unlimited dry, then of course they aren't going to be hungry enough to try an unfamiliar food when it's offered.

Originally Posted by K_T

Between the steroids and his metabolism, he's quickly losing weight right now as it is, so I'm worried that trying to switch them may be too much for him.

This makes it even more urgent that he get on better food. You may not know this, but steroids can cause diabetes, as can a high carb diet like the one he's currently eating. One of the signs of diabetes is weight loss. He really needs to have blood work done if he's losing weight.

Originally Posted by K_T

Only one of our cats (we've had about 8 in total, but the most crowded it's gotten was 5 at once) ever ate ONLY canned food, and he's the only cat that had dental problems, even when we had his teeth professionally cleaned twice a year. He had to have almost all of his teeth pulled.

Dental health has a huge genetic factor. There are also some autoimmune disorders like stomatitis that result in bad gums and teeth. So it may not have had anything to do with the canned food. Some more reading for you:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/d...ean-the-teeth/

Originally Posted by K_T

when she plays, but she doesn't get up and run around as much,

That's because she's obese! You try lugging around twice your appropriate weight and see how energetic you feel. She needs to lose a few pounds first or she's at risk for joint injury during whatever minimal activity she does engage in.

Originally Posted by K_T

Her issue with the raw chicken neck is the bones... I don't eat much meat myself, so I don't know the first thing about feeding certain meats to cats. I mean, common sense would say to remove the bones... but I don't know, maybe that's nonsense coming from this almost-vegetarian.

Yup, that's nonsense. Cats don't remove the bones from their natural prey before they eat it, do they? Now granted, you don't want to feed bones too much larger than they would eat in the "wild", but chicken necks and wings are perfectly acceptable. Quail is also a good choice. Turkey, not so much. You can also feed resilient meats like gizzards or a nice big chunk of fresh beef that they have to really gnaw on.

Originally Posted by K_T

Another thing that was brought up when talking to my parents about switching their foods was when we go away.

Sounds like they're desperately grasping for excuses. Have no fear, I can come up with a response to each and every one!

Originally Posted by K_T

so there's no-one to house-sit and feed the cats.

Hire a pet sitter. http://www.petsit.com/

Originally Posted by K_T

What we usually did was leave down several litter pans and one or two large tupperwares of dry food and water.

Ugh, this is so not a good idea. So many things can go wrong with this scenario. I know someone who used to do the same thing, but one of their cats managed to lock themselves in a closet and they came home to a dead cat. What a tragic way to die, easily prevented had someone come to check on them even once every couple days.

[chico2]

Another thing I was wondering about,the male cat,you said he has feline acne under his chin.
One of my cats did too once,but the only treatment was some kind of green liquid wash(forgot the name)and the acne was gone within days.
Are steroids really needed for acne? Or is there another reason he's on it???

[K_T]

I haven't replied in a while.. I printed out all the replies and had been waiting for my parents to give their thoughts on it before posting again.

So far, the girl cat has begun drinking more again, and she hasn't pooped on the floor since a day after my initial post here.

After showing all of the replies to my parents, this is what they both had to say...

Originally Posted by My Mom

#1 I told you we used an Enzyme solution in the hall. Followed by the powder.

#2 We have had other cats who only ate "cheap" dry food and lived to be 19yrs old. They were just like these two. One was naturally thin and Sissy [a previous cat], who was heavier and did not lose weight until she was around 14 years of age. She was never put on a diet, as she aged her appetite decreased on its own.

#3 As for the way "new" vets treat animals, think back, she [the female cat] did not poop o the floor, bite people or become aggressive until she was treated by one. He botched her surgery and she would have been dead if not for the "old" vet and his ways. (Remember her paws from being caged and the surgical site.)

#4 Your father has worked/yelled in the garage where the litterbox is kept since before you were born. Are they saying she is more sensitive? It never stopped the others from using the box. Again, she does poop in it sometimes. If we make too much noise she would leave. (Example: Vacuum) She has always peed in it. She tends to poop on the floor when all is quiet or no one is watching.

#5 You have yelled/shrieked at [the boy cat] for doing the wrong things, he does not poop on the floor. This is how you have taught him to stop doing bad things, in fact you have told me I do not raise my voice enough, that's why he doesn't fear/listen to me.

#6 Friskies has never been recalled for not making their products correctly. They are not poisoning your cat.

It boils down to this, you need to be more hands on in their care. You need to play with them, feed them, do the litterbox, groom them, bathe them, clean their butts, take them to the vet and voice your concerns. Make a list of your questions for the vet. They will be going for checkups and shots in July.

Also keep in mind the expenses of changing their diet may deem it a possibility that you may need to kick in financially.

What I have to say about that... Her interpretations of things may or may not be off (Specifically, I personally wouldn't say the boy cat fears me. He comes to me most.). I admit that I really should pitch in more with their care, which is probably why I feel as bad about this as I do. I don't have a good excuse for why I haven't until now, either. I do have an unacceptable excuse, but it's more whining/crying about things that have already happened.

Something I forgot to include about the surgery (I didn't think it was important, I guess I might have been wrong) was that she had to have two done about the same issue. (Not a repeat of the same issue.)
Our original vet was very old and retired a little before the surgery. A new vet took over his practice. We had him do the surgery first. The way he sewed her belly back up was horrible and had to be redone. The place she was kept before we could take her back home wasn't that great, either. When we got her back, her claws had something black caked onto them that our current vet said was probably from her clawing at the cage. She also didn't like them at all. She was a very sweet cat even to strangers before the surgery, but when she was with that new vet, she behaved horribly. And I already explained how she was afterward.
Anyway, we found another vet who is also rather up in age. He redid the closing of the incision for her belly and has been very nice.
(To answer the steroids, we had tried different ways of cleaning, different dishes, different medicines, everything that was suggested. The old vet doesn't really like having to give him the steroid shots, but the acne hasn't gone away with any of what we've used, and it keeps itching, so he keeps scratching, which could get it infected. So the steroid shots were the last option for it.)

As for me yelling at the boy cat for doing something he shouldn't.... I do yell very loudly when he gets up in the window to make him get down, because he destroys the blinds. I personally wouldn't care or wouldn't even notice him up there most of the time, but my mom hates him being up there. Granted, she doesn't yell at him. Instead, she has calmly or firmly told him to get down and/or made motions that should at least make him move. Most of the time, she will give up but still be angry when he doesn't move because of it, and the quickest way is usually a loud shout from me.
I usually get up instead to shoo him down, since someone actually approaching him (without anything that would hint at us threatening violence) is a more effective way to get him down. The reason I yell sometimes is because sometimes, I'm very busy with something and getting impatient with my mom's growing impatient commands for him to get down, or her telling me to do something about it. Because I am irritated/stressed/impatient with it, I have the bad habit of shouting for him to get down instead.
(And on me telling her to raise her voice more: She has zero sense of humor and has the worst trouble detecting sarcasm.)

...I'm not sure why she hasn't commented on the chicken neck thing, which is what I wanted her to think about so we could switch them to canned food at least.

Anyway, here's what my dad had to say about it...

Originally Posted by My Dad

How old are these people? Experience with cats, experience with vets. As in what makes these people qualified to offer advice (specifically, sugarcatmom sounds like a sales representative) how can a vet be clueless after 8 years of schooling?

I apologize if any of it sounds insulting... I'm the one who came here for advice, and they're lashing out because of it.

[Love4himies]

I feel so sorry for you, K_T. Don't get discouraged by your parents .

You don't need letters after your name to understand cat psychology or nutrition. Just love for the animal and wanting to make their lives better.

Sometimes just some common sense can go a long way. Cats are carnivores. Their digestive tract from mouth to bum is made to eat raw meat with bones in it. They can chomp through those bones like scissors. They can also regurgitate anything that gets stuck in their throat very well, seen it done by my fosters and feral quite of few times. Check the ingredients on the bag of friskies and ask yourself (or your parents) if that is what a carnivore should be eating?

Another thing about kibble is that there is not enough moisture. Cats on kibble are normally chronically dehydrated. As humans, we're pretty lucky to have cups to drink from, where as animals only have their tongue to lap up water, not very efficient. They are made to get their fluids from their food, ie, blood. (herbivores, it would be from fresh vegetation). Think about how good watermelon is when you are thirsty. If you didn't have a cup to drink from, wouldn't watermelon be the next best thing and eating is is a pretty good way to get your fluids?


It took Puddles MONTHS to change to a quality canned, now she will eat raw. Yup, a lot of tears and frustration, but finally succeeded. She is a changed cat now, unbelievable how much better her fur is. Some cats are easy to change others not. Just like you shouldn't feed a baby in your charge just hotdogs and a vitamin pill, cats should also get the healthiest diet you can give them.

As for yelling at the cats , they don't understand. They are not human, they don't reason like we do. It would be like yelling at a baby . Do your cats have sturdy, high stands that they can climb on and play? My cats love chasing each other to the stands and they climb up on and play.

Are you sure the itching isn't due to allergies? If you try changing their diets to a grain free one (one of the ones listed by SCM), you may solve the itchiness .

Good luck.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by K_T

Something I forgot to include about the surgery (I didn't think it was important, I guess I might have been wrong) was that she had to have two done about the same issue. (Not a repeat of the same issue.)
Our original vet was very old and retired a little before the surgery. A new vet took over his practice. We had him do the surgery first. The way he sewed her belly back up was horrible and had to be redone. The place she was kept before we could take her back home wasn't that great, either. When we got her back, her claws had something black caked onto them that our current vet said was probably from her clawing at the cage. She also didn't like them at all. She was a very sweet cat even to strangers before the surgery, but when she was with that new vet, she behaved horribly. And I already explained how she was afterward.

What do you mean by "the place she was kept?" Was it not at the vets' office? It should have been kept pristinely clean to aid the recovery process. Sounds like she was overly stressed which could very well lead to all of the issues you have talked about here.

Anyway, we found another vet who is also rather up in age. He redid the closing of the incision for her belly and has been very nice.
(To answer the steroids, we had tried different ways of cleaning, different dishes, different medicines, everything that was suggested. The old vet doesn't really like having to give him the steroid shots, but the acne hasn't gone away with any of what we've used, and it keeps itching, so he keeps scratching, which could get it infected. So the steroid shots were the last option for it.)

Like L4H stated - I would think food allergies is playing a major role in the acne. Change the diet to a better one and the acne may clear up. What is being spent on the shots could go a long way for the diet change.

As for me yelling at the boy cat for doing something he shouldn't.... I do yell very loudly when he gets up in the window to make him get down, because he destroys the blinds. I personally wouldn't care or wouldn't even notice him up there most of the time, but my mom hates him being up there. Granted, she doesn't yell at him. Instead, she has calmly or firmly told him to get down and/or made motions that should at least make him move. Most of the time, she will give up but still be angry when he doesn't move because of it, and the quickest way is usually a loud shout from me.
I usually get up instead to shoo him down, since someone actually approaching him (without anything that would hint at us threatening violence) is a more effective way to get him down. The reason I yell sometimes is because sometimes, I'm very busy with something and getting impatient with my mom's growing impatient commands for him to get down, or her telling me to do something about it. Because I am irritated/stressed/impatient with it, I have the bad habit of shouting for him to get down instead.
(And on me telling her to raise her voice more: She has zero sense of humor and has the worst trouble detecting sarcasm.)

Mmmm, so everyone in the house is guilty of yelling then. Not just your dad? Or at least your dad and you are? If you are training a cat you need to be consistent 100% of the time. One slip up and you are back to square one. Just yelling at the cat to get him down isn't going to do it.
L4H also asked about high cat stands. In all probability if your cats had a kitty condo placed in front of a window so they could sit and see out they would leave the windows alone. Around here it's unusual not to see cats in windows. It's a natural thing. In my estimation blinds are replaceable. Cats aren't.


How old are these people? Experience with cats, experience with vets. As in what makes these people qualified to offer advice (specifically, sugarcatmom sounds like a sales representative) how can a vet be clueless after 8 years of schooling?

It's a very good thing I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read the part about SCM sounding like a sales rep! It would have ended up on my comp screen!!! SCM has done years and years of research on feeding cats species appropriate diets. This was done after she lost one of her very own to a food recall and subsequent illness/death. She is highly educated and well rounded. She does not, as far as I know, get a "cut" on any of the foods she recommends.
How old are we? Most of us are fair to middlin'. I don't believe any of us are impressionable young'uns anymore. Most of us have had cats for years and years. SCM currently has 4 and has fostered. L4H currently has 4 and has fostered many. I have a lot.
How can a vet be clueless after 8 years of schooling? Vets do not have to take nutrition courses during their time in school. If they opt into that it is taught by reps from the very same food company that most vets push in their offices. Now if you were being taught something in school would you not believe what the teacher was teaching? Vets come out of school with a preconceived notion of what food should be fed to cats based purely on their "education" by the largest pet food company in the world. Of course they will believe. They also share a portion of that company's profit by selling their food right out of their offices. So yes, vets push dry food ergo dry food "should be" ok. Dry food isn't. It is killing cats. Period.

I apologize if any of it sounds insulting... I'm the one who came here for advice, and they're lashing out because of it.

I understand your parents not wanting to think we know what we are talking about. I have been dubious at points along the way too. But - those cats that were being fed dry food for years and lived to be 19 - luck of the draw. Why do cats need to be fed wheat gluten, corn (which we can't even digest so how can cats), brewers yeast, etc.? Quite simply - they don't.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by K_T

I told you we used an Enzyme solution in the hall. Followed by the powder.

And what exactly is this mysterious "powder"?

Originally Posted by K_T

#2 We have had other cats who only ate "cheap" dry food and lived to be 19yrs old.

What was their cause of death?

By the way, there is a difference between merely *surviving* and actually *thriving*. A fat cat with allergies and chronic digestive issues may indeed live a long miserable life, but why would someone settle for that for their pet? Wouldn't a healthy, sleek feline with a lustrous coat and bright, clear eyes and skin be so much better?

George Burns lived to 100, smoking a dozen cigars a day. Does that mean cigars are the secret to longevity and we should all take up the habit? Don't be ridiculous.

Originally Posted by K_T

They were just like these two. One was naturally thin and Sissy [a previous cat], who was heavier and did not lose weight until she was around 14 years of age. She was never put on a diet, as she aged her appetite decreased on its own.

As with the George Burns analogy, we all know people who can eat nothing but piles of junk food every day and not gain weight. Does that make them healthy? Does that mean everybody should be able to do the same? We aren't talking about the cats your mom has had in the past, we're talking about the 2 cats she has NOW, which are suffering some pretty serious healthy problems BECAUSE OF THE CRAP THEY ARE BEING FED.

Originally Posted by K_T

#3 As for the way "new" vets treat animals, think back, she [the female cat] did not poop o the floor, bite people or become aggressive until she was treated by one. He botched her surgery and she would have been dead if not for the "old" vet and his ways. (Remember her paws from being caged and the surgical site.)

Huh? I have no idea what your mom's point is with this.

Originally Posted by K_T

#6 Friskies has never been recalled for not making their products correctly. They are not poisoning your cat.

Tell that to the millions of cats that have developed obesity, diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease, kidney disease, allergies, dental disease, blocked urinary tracts, bladder inflammation, and cancer, from eating some of the worst food on the market. There is nothing "correct" about feeding an obligate carnivore a diet of corn gluten meal, soybean hulls, powdered cellulose (aka sawdust), 4 or more different food colouring agents (do you really think your cat cares what colour its kibble is?), meat and bone meal (which has a high probability of containing road kill and euthanized pets), and malt extract (a type of sugar). Ask your mom, what research has she done lately on what goes into pet food? (watching commercials on tv doesn't count)

Originally Posted by K_T

They will be going for checkups and shots in July.

Not to open up a whole other can of worms, but when were they last vaccinated, and what vaccines did they get?

Originally Posted by K_T

Also keep in mind the expenses of changing their diet may deem it a possibility that you may need to kick in financially.

So she'll pay for a life-time supply of steroid shots and special shampoos and enzymatic cleaners and mysterious "powders", but she draws the line at healthy food? Wow, some people really do have their priorities messed up.

Originally Posted by K_T

(To answer the steroids, we had tried different ways of cleaning, different dishes, different medicines, everything that was suggested. The old vet doesn't really like having to give him the steroid shots, but the acne hasn't gone away with any of what we've used, and it keeps itching, so he keeps scratching, which could get it infected. So the steroid shots were the last option for it.)

Here's an idea: TRY A BETTER FOOD!!!! Seriously. Did the vet ever suggest that one? No? That's cause he doesn't have a friggen clue about what cats should be eating. Oh but hey, he can continue to make a few bucks off your mom in the meantime by regularly shooting up your cat with steroids, which will never actually cure the problem and only suppress the symptoms of a much bigger issue.

Originally Posted by K_T

Anyway, here's what my dad had to say about it...

How old are these people? Experience with cats, experience with vets. As in what makes these people qualified to offer advice (specifically, sugarcatmom sounds like a sales representative) how can a vet be clueless after 8 years of schooling?

Ya, I laughed at this one too, 14+ . I admit it. I'm a sales rep alright. The difference is that what I'm "selling" doesn't make me a dime (a slightly different scenario than that of the vets and pet food manufacturers). My only agenda is better health for cats. So I'll say this one more time: whatever your folks stubbornly claim has worked for their cats in the past, is clearly not working for the cats they have now. They are both sickly, and in both cases, it's because of their diet.