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  #31  
Old July 1st, 2009, 01:24 AM
Mia101 Mia101 is offline
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Originally Posted by growler View Post
Since the vet has already indicated, as shown on the bloodwork, she has elevated kidney enzymes, reducing the amount of phosphorus in the food now will reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do in order to process & eliminate phos from the body.

Because the BUN is already high and the creatinine is more than half of normal, she's lost almost a pound of weight in the last couple of years, she's a senior at 18 years old and you have noticed her peeing more, it is a good idea not to put any more strain on the kidneys that may cause faster deterioration of their function. Feeding low phos right now will not prevent kidney failure but it will slow the progression of kidney disease & make less of an impact on the kidneys. She may not have damaged kidneys right now but there is a high chance she has pre-renal atozemia ~ damage in the area of the tubes that feed into the kidneys, when this disease progresses farther it becomes kidney failure.

Her BUN is high, her MCHC is high, her creatinine is on the high side of normal ---- right now this indicates she's dehydrated - not getting enough water to compensate for the amount she is peeing out.





Adding 4 oz of water to her food is not enough to flush out toxins in the bloodstream, certainly not enough to reverse dehydration.

On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.

A cat with any indications of kidney disease needs more water than that per day to help combat dehydration, flush the system and replace the water lost through increased urination.




You don't have to feed only 1 flavour day after day, rotate through the 3 different flavours.




Does she finish all the food in her dish per meal?

How much of the can(s) is she eating per day?
rotate which three? the chicken and herring you said ais out. chicken and beef is OK?

Sorry - I'm in a tizzy b/c this cat is special to me and I'm upset I didn't get her more hydrated sooner.

b/f her levels were high, I listened to the advice here and switched her to canned mostly. But I didn't do enough to add water and get her to drink more.

High protein can also cause this? She was eating Wellness complete health and Core for dry, and wellness canned.

She wasn't peeing more until I was making gravy to drink. So I don't think that is a symptom?
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  #32  
Old July 1st, 2009, 01:28 AM
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oh and the food is 77% moisture so I take that into account also.

She eats varying amounts. One day only a 3 oz can,the next day she eats 2 of those cans.

Today she is 75% through a 5.5 oz can and seems to be done for the night.

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooo much for sharing all the detail it would take me forever to research. If I had it I'd get your paypal and send you money. Vets don't get this details.

I can't really afford wellness canned everyday but I'm going to anyway! I am upset because in the latter stages I cannot afford IVs or any of that. If she gets secondary hyperthyroidism I can't treat it.
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  #33  
Old July 1st, 2009, 01:33 AM
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On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.
She's getting a little over 4 oz just from a can of food plain (now that it's strictly wellness). So if I'm adding 4-6 oz that is 8-10. Isn't that too much?
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  #34  
Old July 1st, 2009, 02:36 AM
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rotate which three? the chicken and herring you said ais out. chicken and beef is OK?

Sorry - I'm in a tizzy b/c this cat is special to me and I'm upset I didn't get her more hydrated sooner.

b/f her levels were high, I listened to the advice here and switched her to canned mostly. But I didn't do enough to add water and get her to drink more.

High protein can also cause this? She was eating Wellness complete health and Core for dry, and wellness canned.

She wasn't peeing more until I was making gravy to drink. So I don't think that is a symptom?
The 3 are turkey, chicken, beef & chicken - those are the lowest phos Wellness canned.

The old theory is that high protein is bad for kidney cats and they should be eating low protien low phos food. The problem with that is cats are carnivores they need meat, if you lower the protein too much their body starts burning body muscle/fat and they lose too much weight, also a lower protein food is not as tasty and cats eat what smells/tastes good - if they don't like the taste of a low protein food they're not going to eat which defeats the purpose of the food. So you find a food they like & will eat that has normal or slightly lower protein levels that is lower in phos.

She was likely peeing a little more when you swtiched over to a mostly canned diet, even before adding water to it because of the higher moisture content.

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Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
oh and the food is 77% moisture so I take that into account also.

She eats varying amounts. One day only a 3 oz can,the next day she eats 2 of those cans.

Today she is 75% through a 5.5 oz can and seems to be done for the night.

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooo much for sharing all the detail it would take me forever to research. If I had it I'd get your paypal and send you money. Vets don't get this details.

I can't really afford wellness canned everyday but I'm going to anyway! I am upset because in the latter stages I cannot afford IVs or any of that. If she gets secondary hyperthyroidism I can't treat it.
See if you can tempt her into eating a little more on the days she only eats 3 oz. In general the average cat should eat 4-6 ounces of canned food per day split between 2-3 meals.

If your store carries the 12.5oz cans it's actually cheaper to buy the bigger ones. You can freeze half of the food from the can in a storage container such as Ziploc Single Serve, and feed it another day.

If you aren't doing so already the food from the cans with a pop tops/pull tab lid should be stored in a glass dish or ziploc plastic container, not stored in the can in your fridge. There was a health study done some years ago about the adverse effects when the lining of the cans with pull tab lids is exposed to the air & leaching into the food potentially causing HyperT in cats.

Don't worry about what ifs right now, it's early yet, but I would suggest since she is a senior & you also have another pet, if you can putting some money aside each paycheck into an account for vet expenses - this is a good idea for anyone who has pets healthy or not, just in case.

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She's getting a little over 4 oz just from a can of food plain (now that it's strictly wellness). So if I'm adding 4-6 oz that is 8-10. Isn't that too much?
Given that her bloodwork shows dehydration I would say it's not too much

Is she still drinking water from the tap/independantly from what's in the food?
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  #35  
Old July 1st, 2009, 03:09 AM
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Sorry to be so OCD about this - yes she needs more than she was getting, but I fear I've gone overboard. i.e. half of what I'm adding would be moe than she was getting and adequate to re-hydrate and what I'm actually giving is too much.

8-10 oz???????????

She never drinks from any other source since I started adding water to her wet food.

There is no money to put aside. I procrastinated about pet insurance and I am devastated about that now.

Just feeding them premium food and the regular vet visits and the flea/heartworm/etc. coverage is breaking me. I have concrete where floors should be because every time I'm going to get new ones the dog has an ear infection or the cat needs a dental.And she has to have the geriatric blood panel every year and be groomed (Persian).

The dog may have kidney issued too. The bloodwork came back normal but her urine was too dilute. I still think it's from forcing water when she had a UTI but the next urine test will tell us more about her.
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  #36  
Old July 1st, 2009, 04:50 AM
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When calculating the amount of water a cat is drinking you don't actually count the moisture level in the food.

So if you are adding 4-6 oz of water per day & the recommended amount of water consumption for her weight is 5.14-6.56oz per day she's getting a good amount.
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  #37  
Old July 1st, 2009, 02:13 PM
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When calculating the amount of water a cat is drinking you don't actually count the moisture level in the food.

So if you are adding 4-6 oz of water per day & the recommended amount of water consumption for her weight is 5.14-6.56oz per day she's getting a good amount.
OK. I filled up 6 oz last night to start with today. I'll try 2 oz per feeding. TY again!

I really wish I had known that before. All I got from here was switch to wet food. I had the impression the point was to get close to all of her water consumption from that. 'Cats evolved in the desert and got their moisture from prey'.

I'm not complaining, I'm just upset that something so easy could have prevented this.

She seemed to drink a lot. Would be at that tap for a long time a few times a day.
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  #38  
Old July 1st, 2009, 03:29 PM
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OK. I filled up 6 oz last night to start with today. I'll try 2 oz per feeding. TY again!

I really wish I had known that before. All I got from here was switch to wet food. I had the impression the point was to get close to all of her water consumption from that. 'Cats evolved in the desert and got their moisture from prey'.

I'm not complaining, I'm just upset that something so easy could have prevented this.

She seemed to drink a lot. Would be at that tap for a long time a few times a day.
It is true that they do get most of their water from the canned food as they would from prey, however a cat normally drinks after it eats therefore they still get additional water that way.

Switching to canned & not adding extra water is likely not the cause. Age & natural slowing down of bodily functions has probably played a big part in this. A lifetime of dryfood that has a max moisture level of 10% also doesn't help. Many dryfood fed cats are chronically dehydrated even though they seem to drink alot of water.
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  #39  
Old July 1st, 2009, 05:03 PM
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how bad is tuna? A bit of that in a bowl of water is a sure way for her to drink.
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  #40  
Old July 1st, 2009, 05:06 PM
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For some reason the dog doesn't like to drink and tuna is how I trick her. So I gave the cat like 1/10or 1/20 of a can in 4 oz of water because she is not interested in her 'canned food soup' today.
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  #41  
Old July 1st, 2009, 05:07 PM
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They both always pass the skin test. Yet another mystery.
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  #42  
Old July 1st, 2009, 05:09 PM
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If you mean using the meat then definately no tuna. That's the one food guarenteed to make them stop eating all other foods. It is very addicting to cats and if they eat exclusively tuna it creates an imbalance of vit e in their bodies.

If you are using a small amount of the low or no sodium tuna juice in the water that's fine just watch for any signs that point to her not eating as much as before.
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  #43  
Old July 1st, 2009, 05:38 PM
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For the dog drinking problem (a thread I need to start) I read to use a bullion cube for flavor.

I was thinking to put a tuna chunk (low sodium) in the dog's water for flavor, and then make tuna flavored water for the cat.

She has never been permitted much tuna because of the mercury. Maybe once a week 1/4 of a can as a treat.

Is tuna anti-kidney?

She is good about eating her regular food after tuna, but I will certainly keep that in mind when using it to encourage drinking.
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  #44  
Old July 10th, 2009, 03:46 PM
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She's not eating enough. It takes her two days to eat a 5.5 oz can.

She used to eat her dry when she got tired of her canned, but I'm trying not to give her much.

How bad is Sheba? It's not a complete diet anyway, but as an add-on? It is the only wet food in existence she will eat all of the 2.5 oz in one sitting.

Also I remember she really like blue buffalo, but I chose Wellness even before the kidney issue based on better ingredients. I think it was the carb content I didn't like in BB.

But maybe she needs a bit more carbs. She's lost a pound ever since I switched her food. She does not actually have CRF, so that is not the reason for the weight loss.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 01:06 AM
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Sheba cat food their website won't even state the full ingredients in the food - I'd find something else quick

Wellness, Nature's Variety, Evo, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merricks, California Naturals, Innova are all much better choices.
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  #46  
Old July 11th, 2009, 04:58 AM
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Sheba has awesome ingredients, it's just not a nutritionally balanced food so unsuitable for the main meals. I just didn't know about phosphorous content.

I need her to eat or she is going to waste away.

I have tried so many brands. W/o dry added in her diet, she simply won't eat enough of canned unless it is bad for her like fancy feast and the like.

*crying*
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  #47  
Old July 11th, 2009, 05:02 AM
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Does anyone know if 'Wellness complete health' dry is OK or good on phosphorous? You said 'Core' is not. Weird I was talked into that one here, but that is beside the point now.

I guess Iams is not - she really likes that and Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul. (dry for both).

If I have to use dry to have her eat enough, I think she is getting enough water with it added to her canned and the tuna-flavored water I put out.

Thanks so much for all the help! I need as many years with this precious cat as possible.
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  #48  
Old July 11th, 2009, 05:07 AM
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Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.
Maybe the beef FF will help her to eat more. Only a bit on the Core? How high above desired is it?

I don't even know if she loved that. Before the kidney issue I thought it was good for her and mixed with the 'complete health'.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 03:04 PM
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Only a bit on the Core? How high above desired is it?
Core has 338mg of phosphorus per 100 calories. If a cat did have kidney issues, it would be preferable to keep the phosphorus below about 200-240mg (which roughly equals 1% dry matter). It's not a crucial issue if CRF isn't present, although I still think it's a good idea not to feed foods outrageously high in phosphorus even to a healthy cat (by outrageous, I'm thinking above 400mg/100cal).

If the Core gets her to eat more, it might be worth adding a small amount to her diet. Have you tried pulverizing it and dusting the canned with it? How much does she weigh (forgive me if you've mentioned it before)? Does offering her a different flavour of canned for each meal keep her more interested?
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Old July 11th, 2009, 04:40 PM
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I don't have any of the CORE left. She didn't really love it. I was the one wanting her to eat it. I think the phosphorous issue was raised at that time, so I mixed it with Wellness Complete Health.

I've tried rotating, thank you for the suggestion. She just doesn't like to eat all canned all the time, it seems. I think I need to find a dry that is good on phosphorous and keep adding water to her canned for hydration.

Right now her dry is a hodge-podge of Felidae, Chicken Soup, and Iams. (long story).

She weighs just over 6 pounds which is down from her usual 7.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 11:00 PM
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Does anyone know if 'Wellness complete health' dry is OK or good on phosphorous?
As I mentioned earlier:

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Originally Posted by growler View Post
Wellness Complete Health Chicken and Rice Dry runs at 1.12 dry matter phos and the Wellness Complete Health Salmon and Turkey Dry runs at 1.01 dry matter phos.

Canned is by far better but if you must feed some not all dry either one is okay, the Salmon has better dm phos numbers but you want to be aware of the addictive fish aspect. Some cats once they start on fish will only eat fish & it becomes darn near impossible to get them to eat anything else - that is one other reason to limit the fish intake.
Wellness Complete Health Salmon & Turkey Dry has a slightly better phos level than Wellness Complete Health Chicken & Rice Dry both are good phos levels, if you can keep some canned food and not feed exclusively dry even better.

With the secondary protein Turkey in the Salmon & Turkey dry it will counteract much of the negatives of feeding fish to cats with kidney issues or potential issues.
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  #52  
Old July 12th, 2009, 03:22 AM
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She doesn't like Salmon, so that won't be an issue.

So far, it looks like I can rotate the wellness canned (certain varieties approved) with Fancy Feast beef, and dry Wellness chicken and rice.

Is the chicken and herring wellness canned really bad? She will eat more of that than the others.

I need her to maintain her weight too........this is hard.

I guess the Felidae/chicken soup/Iams dry mixture is all bad?
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Old July 12th, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Is the chicken and herring wellness canned really bad? She will eat more of that than the others.
Wellness chicken & herring isn't soooo bad. Phosphorus is 303mg/100cal, not the best but nowhere near the worst. Again, if your can't hasn't officially been diagnosed with renal insufficiency, it's fine to feed it, especially if it gets her eating.

This might seem weird, but have you tried feeding the 3oz cans instead of the 5.5oz ones? I've heard of a number of cats (mine included) that for some reason prefer the food in the smaller cans. No idea why, except that the "leftover factor" might have something to do with it (many cats will like a food fresh out of the can, but not after it's been refrigerated - even if you warm it up first).

If her ideal weight is 7 lbs, and the rough guidelines for feline caloric intake are 20-30 calories per lb per day, then you should aim for her to eat somewhere between 140-210 cal/day. Most of the Wellness flavours are around 35-40 cal/oz (with chicken being the highest).
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  #54  
Old July 14th, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Even the little ones. She will eat half sometimes and have nothing to do with the rest. it's been hard ever since I switched her to canned. I've tried every trick in the book.

Where can I find out the phosphorous levels of Iams, Chicken Soup, and Felidae?

That is the mixture of dry in the house right now. The place I get Wellness isn't sticking the dry anymore.

If I don't let her have dry she just flat doesn't get enough to eat

Also, how bad are the other varieties of fancy feast? It seems like when she was getting a different flavor every day she ate more.

Maybe like you said get small cans of wellness and enough others so that she doesn't get sick of any of them.

I'm trying to walk some kind of line over here....hydrating her and not hurting her kidneys but also keeping her weight up.
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Old July 14th, 2009, 02:21 AM
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You can see some of the Fancy Feast varieties listed here: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/CanFoodNew.html The foods with less than 200 or upto 240 listed under the Phosph (mg) column are a good phos level ~ doesn't necessarily mean all the ingredients in the food are the best though.

The Felidae website has all of their canned formulas at the same dry matter phos level of 0.9% which is very good - however I would prefer to see the guarenteed analysis off the can to be sure it is actually the same, since every variety usually has different levels, especially since the site above has differing levels for the 2 Felidae varieties listed.

As for Iams & Chicken Soup they don't have phos listed on the web either on their own site or a couple others I checked You would need to give me from the guarenteed analysis on the can 1) the moisture content 2) the phosphorus content then I can calculate the dry matter phosphorus which is one of the only ways to compare the phos in different varieties/brands of food.
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  #56  
Old July 14th, 2009, 04:06 AM
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TY. The Iams, Felidae, and Chicken Soup are dry. That's what she has for dry right now.

I know fancy feast is not the best ingredients, but I can't get her to eat enough of a low-phosphorous canned food with the best ingredients.

I think the best I can hope for is to get her to eat enough canned period w/o too much phosphorous.

Or add water to her canned to make up for the amount of dry she eats and make sure it's all low-phosphorous.
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Old July 14th, 2009, 11:41 PM
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Okay I thought you had those 3 as canned foods, here is the same style list for dryfood http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html, again anything upto 240mg phos/100kcal in the phos column is okay. Unfortunately they don't have any of the Iams phos values listed, the Chicken Soup Adult has acceptable phos levels and the Felidae isn't listed & their site doesn't list the phos for the dryfood.

If you have the bags, look on the side or the back for the Moisture % and the Phosphorus %, then I can let you know where they are in terms of dry matter phos compared to other foods.

As for the FF canned the ones listed on the site given in the previous post are all over 240mg phos/100kcal - if you have a flavour not listed there and still have the cans let me know the moisture % and the phosphorus % & I can convert it for you. If she will eat some of the other foods listed there are a number of them under 240.
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  #58  
Old July 15th, 2009, 01:06 AM
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TY. The Felidae bag doesn't tell the phosphorous content. I think right now so she doesn't lose weight I will let her eat whatever she will eat.

I will look at your sites and stock up on low-phosphorous foods and see what I can do to get her to eat them!

I think this all-canned thing is not going to work, which bothers me but I'm more worried about her dropping weight.

IDK, this is very hard. I've been up for 7 hours and all she's eaten is less than a handful of dry and 1/8 of a 5.5 oz can. This can't continue. Overnight she ate like 1/16th of her canned that had water in it to keep it moist.

She's not even going for the canned food soup like she was at first

I'm about to give her a dome of Sheba because she will eat that until it's gone.

I hope to discover the phosphorous content of that food. It will be a blessing if it's low.
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Old July 15th, 2009, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growler View Post
Okay I thought you had those 3 as canned foods, here is the same style list for dryfood http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html, again anything upto 240mg phos/100kcal in the phos column is okay. Unfortunately they don't have any of the Iams phos values listed, the Chicken Soup Adult has acceptable phos levels and the Felidae isn't listed & their site doesn't list the phos for the dryfood.

If you have the bags, look on the side or the back for the Moisture % and the Phosphorus %, then I can let you know where they are in terms of dry matter phos compared to other foods.

As for the FF canned the ones listed on the site given in the previous post are all over 240mg phos/100kcal - if you have a flavour not listed there and still have the cans let me know the moisture % and the phosphorus % & I can convert it for you. If she will eat some of the other foods listed there are a number of them under 240.
Good news on the Chicken Soup. That's a decent dry that she will eat!
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Old July 15th, 2009, 01:16 AM
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growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
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You can always try emailing Sheba and ask for a guarenteed analysis for the flavours that she will eat, specifically mention you are interested to know what the phosphorus content is, they should email you back with that info.
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