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Old September 17th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Anybody see the pitbull bash in the gazette?

Thursday in the Montreal Gazette, somebody sent in a letter saying his cat was killed by a pitty and pitties shouldn't be allowed in the city. I can't find it on the net, but I'll type it up later...

I'm gonna write back.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 10:49 PM
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oh you're kidding,.. WTF! bet his alley cat was loose without a collar, peeing in somebody's garden, and the dog got upset and nature took its course? grumble grumble. as if labradors, dalmations and even spaniels can't kill cats!!
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Old September 17th, 2006, 11:28 PM
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No pit bulls near homes

Thursday September 14th, 2006
page A30 of the Montreal Gazette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters to the editor, The Gazette
Last month, an unlicensed pit bull running loose invaded our home, mangling and killing our daughter's 10 year old cat.

My wife, recovering from an operation, was in danger but tried to beat the animal off with a crutch. It would not let go of the cat. The police captured the animal and returned it to its owner.

We were told the owner was charged with several offences - possible penalties amount to a few hundred dollars.

The authorities refuse to tell us the name(s) and address of the owner(s) despite our official request for a copy of the police report.

We wish to warn N.D.G. residents near the intersection of Hampton and Terrebonne that there is a vicious dog in the neighborhood. It will eventually escape again and its next victim could be your child.

The dog is dangerous and should be put down. Owning a pit bull should not be allowed in densely populated areas.

Charles Aronowitz
Notre Dame de Grāce
Send letters to: letters@thegazette.canwest.com
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Old September 18th, 2006, 07:52 AM
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Most dogs aren't going to kill other domesticated animals. People who own dogs who have the propensity to kill other people's pets should understand that most other people don't see a dog who kills their pet as "nature taking it's course." They see that as a dangerously aggressive animal who has just killed one of their family members.

High levels of aggression directed at domestic animals is a temperament flaw. It should be no more acceptable for a pit bull breeder to breed a pit bull with killer levels of dog (or cat) aggression because "it's just part of the breed" than it is for a golden retriever breeder to breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia because "it's just part of the breed" . At least there aren't any golden retriever breeders who are breeding FOR hip dysplasia. Unfortunately we can't say the same about pit bull breeders and dangerous levels of dog aggression.

If pit bull people want to serve pit bulls, they should stop thinking that people who object to the temperament flaw of animal aggression are unfairly "bashing" pit bulls and think of ways to eliminate it (at least among pit bulls not bred for fighting--obviously there is a huge contingent of pit bull breeders who LIKE animal aggression). A good place to start would be to make dog aggression a disqualification in the AKC AmStaff and staffordshire bull terrier standards and in the UKC American pit bull standard. Think of how much GOOD would come if these standards added a "Temperament" section that read:

"A gushingly friendly temperament is characteristic of the breed. Dogs should wag their tails enthusiastically upon being approached by the judge (or any other human being). A dog who moves slightly because he is wiggling with happiness upon being touched should not be faulted, but a dog who is aloof or uninterested in the judge is not displaying proper temperament and shall be faulted accordingly. A dog who displays any degree shyness whatsoever shall not place. A dog who displays any aggression toward any person in the ring shall be disqualified. While American Staffordshire terriers was historically known as dog aggressive, dog aggression is completely incompatible with the modern role of the American Staffordshire terrier as a working companion animal. Consequently, any AmStaff who shows any dog aggression in the ring shall be disqualified."

Think of the GOOD publicity that this would give "pit bulls" when the television announcer at Westminster says every year "AmStaffs and Staffordshire bull terriers are the only two breeds where failure to wag their tail at, and be happy to see, the judge is a fault." People would start to see pit bulls as FRIENDLY dogs (which they properly should be) rather than as menacing dogs.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnet
Most dogs aren't going to kill other domesticated animals.
I don't agree. It is in ALL dogs' natures to have a predator instinct. It can be trained out of them to some extent through exposure while young to different animals and through obedience training.

I once brought home a lab/beagle cross from the humane society and the first thing it did was kill my sister's kitten. We were so upset that I had to bring the dog back to the humane society (I ended up with a puppy instead from them)- but that was not a vicious dog at all; she just didn't know that the cat was a part of the family that she was to tolerate. It was my fault because I didn't train her or acclimatize her to the rules of her new home, I assumed that she would be ok with the cat.

Just the other day my labx Sam just killed a mouse out of the woodpile. Does this mean he is an aggressive dog? Not in the least.

I think it is right to blame the owner for letting his dog out of his control (ie loose and on someone else's property)-
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:03 AM
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Well, the part about letting the dog roam free definitely tells us right away that this owner is less than responsible. It could have been any breed after that.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:36 AM
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oh my... that is just so wrong. i retract what i said before! but unless you live on street-level and your door is wide open (which is rare in a city specially that neighborhood) , how else would a stray dog enter your home? people! close your doors! the cat could as well have walked out of the appartment, crossed the street and gotten squished by a car. this story makes no sense. There are many inconsistensies in this story. so the dog was not agressive since it was hit by a crutch and didn't bite back, it was focussed on the cat (aka prey). how did it get in the home in the first place, did it ring the doorbell and ask to be let in? stupid owners.. grrrr. always the stupid owners.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 11:14 AM
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I disagree too . . . Many breeds are notorious for killing small, fleeing animals. (Huskies, greyhounds, whippets.) Half the dogs in the local daschund rescue have a note in their profile saying they can't have homes with cats. No, animal aggressiveness should not be encouraged or specifically bred for, but if it's there, that doesn't mean the dog is a threat to humans.

It does mean the owners should take the responsibility to keep the dog safely contained in their yard, of course.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Most dogs aren't going to kill other domesticated animals. People who own dogs who have the propensity to kill other people's pets should understand that most other people don't see a dog who kills their pet as "nature taking it's course." They see that as a dangerously aggressive animal who has just killed one of their family members.
My English Pointer almost shook a Bichon Frise puppy to death last fall, as said pup was running amuck and charged my dogs barking and growling. You've made a gross assumption about a dog's propensity to kill based on breed, since technically, my Simon should classified as "dangerously aggressive" according to that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
"A gushingly friendly temperament is characteristic of the breed. Dogs should wag their tails enthusiastically upon being approached by the judge (or any other human being).
If you met Simon on the street, you'd get that exact response from both him and my Shepherd/Chow mix Peaches. You'd never guess that he darn near killed another dog.

Looks are deceiving, I challenge the author of the letter to prove this was indeed a pitbull. I had a neighbor (not the sharpest tool in the shed mind you) ask me if Simon was a pittie, seriously, a pitbull. It occurred to me then and there, that there are folks willing to classify anything shorthaired and of medium build (30lbs+) as a pitbull if it serves a purpose to do so, mentally biased or just plain ignorant of what different breeds of dog actually look like.

Also, you have to actually *get* ppl to either watch or attend dog shows en masse in order to change the mass opinion folks have of pits, AmStaffs and Bull terriers if it were as simple as an announcer;s/judge's verbiage
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  #10  
Old September 18th, 2006, 03:08 PM
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It seems that as soon as a dog attacks anything either human or animal it is immediately deemed a pitbull . Did we not have at least 3 mistaken IDs just before this pitbull ban came into effect ? The "less than Honourable" Mr Bryant even went on TV after 2 of these misIDs and stated that these attacks are why we need a ban . The problem was just after he went on his usual rant the dogs were properly ID'd and the public{at least any that were watching} seen him for what he is a grandstanding polititian{not the first}.
On another note my niece has a jackrussel terrier that has attacked many cats and killed at least one that i know of. Yet no one has called this dog a menace or that he should be banned from living in the city of Hamilton. If he was a pit I am sure that by now he would have been PTS.
And I agree this storey is very incomplete . People as dog owners have a responsibility to keep their dogs from running at large . But in the same note if your door is left open who knows what might wander in or out ? As for the letter stating that the dog is likely to escape again and is dangerous . That is fair warning to the nieghbourhood . But stating that the next victim could be your child is "fear mongering" there is no basis for this statement . The dog attacked an animal not the woman that tried to get it off the cat . Even after she hit the dog there is nothing stating the dog turned on her or showed any human aggression whatsoever to her or the police.
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  #11  
Old September 18th, 2006, 03:26 PM
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Why should these cats be allowed to roam free in the city???? I've got at least a dozen cats right now that are teasing my dog - day in, day out - they do their business in my garden, pee at my front door, and screech at night. Yeah, I'm fed up with them and if my dog were to be left alone unsupervised in my yard - it wouldn't take long for my dog to jump any size fence up to 8' to get a hold of a cat that had just crossed the back fence of my yard.

If you're going to let your cat roam free - face the consequences. It can get hit by a car, killed by a dog, or even poisoned by some creep. It's not worth it.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 04:13 PM
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K9Friend,I agree,cats should not be roaming bothering other people but like with dogs running lose being the owners fault,the same goes for cats.
I don't know how this dog got access to the cat-owners house,sounds a little fishy to me.
But if this was the case and the owner lets the dog run loose,she/he IMO has lost the priviledge to own a dog,unless the dog broke loose and was lost.
I can understand the cat-owner being hysterical after witnessing something this horrible and knowing how many people view Pit-Bulls:sad:he uses the pittie breed, to frighten people.
He is angry and sad after losing his 10yr old cat,as I would be,unfortunately he lashes out at all Pit-Bulls in general
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  #13  
Old September 18th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1313
I disagree too . . . Many breeds are notorious for killing small, fleeing animals. (Huskies, greyhounds, whippets.) Half the dogs in the local daschund rescue have a note in their profile saying they can't have homes with cats. No, animal aggressiveness should not be encouraged or specifically bred for, but if it's there, that doesn't mean the dog is a threat to humans.

It does mean the owners should take the responsibility to keep the dog safely contained in their yard, of course.
Interesting that half the dachshunds in rescue can't be around cats. I will wager that, for at least some of these dogs, animal aggression is the reason they lost their homes and need to be rescued. Dachshunds, however, are lucky since they are highly adoptable and have a devoted fanbase and few die in shelters for want of a home. Sadly for pit bulls, MANY die in shelters, and dog aggression is an automatic death sentence in most shelters, even if the dog is lucky enough to land in one of the (few) shelters which adopt out pit bulls at all.

When you are dealing with a trait that is completely and totally negative (as dog aggression is for pit bulls), it isn't enough to say that you aren't breeding FOR it. You really have to consciously breed away from it. After all, would it be good enough for you if a golden retriever breeder said "I don't breed FOR hip dysplasia in my dogs..." or should they actually test for it and eliminate the dogs with this genetic flaw from their breeding program? Why is the completely negative trait of dog aggression any different from hip dysplasia?

And who said anything about dog aggression necessarily meaning "that the dog is a threat to humans?" What dog aggression means is that the dog is a threat to dogs. That certainly can up the chances that a human being will get hurt (we recently discussed an incident where a pit bull/mastiff bit off a woman's finger when she was trying to break up a dog fight to protect a child who was trapped), but even if you ignore that, just being a threat to other dogs is enough to make dog aggression a temperament flaw, isn't it?
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Old September 18th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chico2
K9Friend,I agree,cats should not be roaming bothering other people but like with dogs running lose being the owners fault,the same goes for cats.
I don't know how this dog got access to the cat-owners house,sounds a little fishy to me.
But if this was the case and the owner lets the dog run loose,she/he IMO has lost the priviledge to own a dog,unless the dog broke loose and was lost.
I can understand the cat-owner being hysterical after witnessing something this horrible and knowing how many people view Pit-Bulls:sad:he uses the pittie breed, to frighten people.
He is angry and sad after losing his 10yr old cat,as I would be,unfortunately he lashes out at all Pit-Bulls in general
Frankly, dogs who kill other animals aren't usually "let run loose." It only takes one or two instances where the dog kills somebody else's animals before something happens and the animal aggressive dog dies too, generally. So if you are going to give owners of animal aggressive dogs the "he just got out this once" or "the gate didn't latch" or "the nine year old child didn't close the front door all the way" excuse, you can pretty much say that all they have to do is say "accidents happen" and that is good enough if their dog kills your dog.

And who here hasn't EVER had a dog get loose? I am a highly responsible dog owner, and I have had loose dogs more often than I can remember.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jawert1
My English Pointer almost shook a Bichon Frise puppy to death last fall, as said pup was running amuck and charged my dogs barking and growling. You've made a gross assumption about a dog's propensity to kill based on breed, since technically, my Simon should classified as "dangerously aggressive" according to that statement.

If you met Simon on the street, you'd get that exact response from both him and my Shepherd/Chow mix Peaches. You'd never guess that he darn near killed another dog.

I certainly agree that dog aggressive dogs come in many breeds. I don't know the specifics of your pointer's attack on the bichon puppy, but if it was aggressive, (you seem to be saying it was defensive, and that he was "charged" by the puppy) I'd say that your dog doesn't have a proper pointer temperament. That isn't a crime, and it doesn't mean you can't love him, it just means that he shouldn't be bred. REsponsible pointer breeders would not breed a pointer who was dog aggressive, because pointers in the field need to be able to work cooperatively with a bracemate (often another unneutered male) whom they have never met before. They also should ignore small critters who might run in front of their noses, in favor of finding and pointing (not trying to catch and kill even then) birds. Dog aggression is a completely negative trait in a pointer, as it is in every breed. (The only possible exception I can think of is livestock guarding dogs). The difference is that responsible pointer breeders know that dog aggression is a negative trait. Pit bull breeders? Um...discouragingly, a lot of them say it is "just part of the breed."
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Old September 18th, 2006, 05:49 PM
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there is not enough info about this story in the media........one heresay letter from a supposed victim,as i posted in another thread,show me actual proof this is definitely a pit and not has like characteristics or similar looks....again this so far is heresay about the breed...and to say a dog who is alittle sheepish towards a strangers first approach is an aggressive dog is ridicules,animals get nervous just like people.....and stress on a show dog must change on a show by show basis.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
(you seem to be saying it was defensive, and that he was "charged" by the puppy) I'd say that your dog doesn't have a proper pointer temperament. That isn't a crime, and it doesn't mean you can't love him, it just means that he shouldn't be bred. REsponsible pointer breeders would not breed a pointer who was dog aggressive, because pointers in the field need to be able to work cooperatively with a bracemate (often another unneutered male) whom they have never met before. They also should ignore small critters who might run in front of their noses, in favor of finding and pointing (not trying to catch and kill even then) birds. Dog aggression is a completely negative trait in a pointer, as it is in every breed. (The only possible exception I can think of is livestock guarding dogs).
You're right, I am saying it was defensive because it was. He's fixed, so no worries about breeding there and since he's a rescue dog, I don't have all the facts about his breeding, but I do know his story and no, the abuse done to him has rendered him not right. My point to all of that is this:
1) many of these alleged "pitbulls" are not even pitbulls
2) you don't know the backstory of ANY dog unless it's been your own from puppyhood

I've seen other threads where you've quoted "statistics", unfortunately, most of these are assumptions and suppositions on your part, and not actually backed up by any reputable sources. I'd love to see this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
The difference is that responsible pointer breeders know that dog aggression is a negative trait. Pit bull breeders? Um...discouragingly, a lot of them say it is "just part of the breed."
quantified with some statistically significant number other than "I don't have the info off the top of my head"

As wdawson put it, all the facts are not in, and per my story and point, no dog can be judged solely on it's breed, nor can that single judgement become a breed standard and grounds for a ban or bash.
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  #18  
Old September 18th, 2006, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
High levels of aggression directed at domestic animals is a temperament flaw. It should be no more acceptable for a pit bull breeder to breed a pit bull with killer levels of dog (or cat) aggression
For crying out loud, that has nothing to do with temperament, it is call instinct, the same reason birds fly south for the winter. Natural instinct for a dog is to chase and kill prey, in some dogs that instinct is stronger than in other, it can't simply be bred out, I had 2 greyhound that bother spent a couple years on the track, they both share some of the same ancestors in their pedigree, one has a strong prey drive the other had no interest in chasing live animals but her sister did. Most dogs are not going to know the difference between a cat and rabbit unless they were raised around cats. My dogs know the cats in the house are part of their pack and they learned to accept them as such, but if a stray cat came into my yard and it started running the dogs would chase and attempt to kill it , not knowing what it is from a distance to them it would be simply prey. and one of the current 2 of mine is extremely shy and sensitive she will run and hide from a toddler and the other loves kids and will let little tot look in his mouth and lay on him.

And my 27 lb eskie with also chase and try to killed animals, she has caught birds and even managed to get hold of a full grown rabbit in the yard but was unable to hold it and she also is afraid of toddlers to the point of avoiding them rather than running and hiding, having a prey instinct does not mean a dog will go after people, Even my mom's shih tzu used to chase after rabbits and cats that were bigger than her.
  #19  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:15 PM
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Cygnet, I really must respectfully disagree with many of your points, and I do so as an owner of two pitbull crosses who would love to see the day when people stop crossing the street to avoid me, who's dog's have only ever had to fight for couch space and who's never allowed their dogs to hurt a fly, as much as they'd love to chase down all the cats in the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Most dogs aren't going to kill other domesticated animals. People who own dogs who have the propensity to kill other people's pets should understand that most other people don't see a dog who kills their pet as "nature taking it's course." They see that as a dangerously aggressive animal who has just killed one of their family members.
Although I have the deepest sympathy for those who have ever lost a pet, especially due to other's negligent behavior, I actually see it as a problem that we have so lost touch with the fact that our "fur babies" are, in fact, still animals, that we would be horrified at any expression of their instincts. Dogs are dogs, they hunt, rollin dead stuff, lick thier butts when guests are over, and in the attempt to live with them in very populated urban areas, we should not forget that they are what they are, even while we act responsibly and keep them out of trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
High levels of aggression directed at domestic animals is a temperament flaw. It should be no more acceptable for a pit bull breeder to breed a pit bull with killer levels of dog (or cat) aggression because "it's just part of the breed" than it is for a golden retriever breeder to breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia because "it's just part of the breed" . At least there aren't any golden retriever breeders who are breeding FOR hip dysplasia. Unfortunately we can't say the same about pit bull breeders and dangerous levels of dog aggression.
Prey drive is not a temperment flaw, and in the breed in question, as with many others, neither is dog aggression. In pitbulls neither speaks to the stability of the dog's temperment in regards to people, and are manageable with some training and effort on the part of the owner. One of my dogs is extremely prey driven and is dog aggressive. We live in an very busy area, yet he has never so much as laid a paw on a cat and is trained to ignore passing dogs. Although I don't love the fact that he would love to chase cats and fight with other dogs, it would be a sad day, to me, when we would start producing dogs with no drive to do anything because they're easier for John Q Public to own with little effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
If pit bull people want to serve pit bulls, they should stop thinking that people who object to the temperament flaw of animal aggression are unfairly "bashing" pit bulls and think of ways to eliminate it (at least among pit bulls not bred for fighting--obviously there is a huge contingent of pit bull breeders who LIKE animal aggression). A good place to start would be to make dog aggression a disqualification in the AKC AmStaff and staffordshire bull terrier standards and in the UKC American pit bull standard. Think of how much GOOD would come if these standards added a "Temperament" section that read:

"A gushingly friendly temperament is characteristic of the breed. Dogs should wag their tails enthusiastically upon being approached by the judge (or any other human being). A dog who moves slightly because he is wiggling with happiness upon being touched should not be faulted, but a dog who is aloof or uninterested in the judge is not displaying proper temperament and shall be faulted accordingly. A dog who displays any degree shyness whatsoever shall not place. A dog who displays any aggression toward any person in the ring shall be disqualified. While American Staffordshire terriers was historically known as dog aggressive, dog aggression is completely incompatible with the modern role of the American Staffordshire terrier as a working companion animal. Consequently, any AmStaff who shows any dog aggression in the ring shall be disqualified."

Think of the GOOD publicity that this would give "pit bulls" when the television announcer at Westminster says every year "AmStaffs and Staffordshire bull terriers are the only two breeds where failure to wag their tail at, and be happy to see, the judge is a fault." People would start to see pit bulls as FRIENDLY dogs (which they properly should be) rather than as menacing dogs.
So you've just described a pitbull, minus dog aggression. Again, I'm not really arguing for dog aggression, but rather for drive in general. I love my dog's drive, they put it into almost everything they do. Why would I want that watered down? The same thing that makes them want to chase cats can be channelled into more appropriate behaviors, and frankly, it's awsome when you accomplish that. If one doesn't like that kind of dog, or isn't prepared to deal with all that comes along with responsibly owning one, why not just get another breed?
Why should those who enjoy having drivey dogs, of whatever specific breed, be denied that becuase other's find the idea of chasing a squirrle up a tree distasteful?
  #20  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jawert1

I've seen other threads where you've quoted "statistics", unfortunately, most of these are assumptions and suppositions on your part, and not actually backed up by any reputable sources. I'd love to see this:


quantified with some statistically significant number other than "I don't have the info off the top of my head"

As wdawson put it, all the facts are not in, and per my story and point, no dog can be judged solely on it's breed, nor can that single judgement become a breed standard and grounds for a ban or bash.
Statistics? Well, we absolutely know that lots and lots of pit bull breeders breed for dog aggression, don't we? For dog fighters, (and wannabe dog fighters, which may even be a bigger group) dog aggression (and "gameness" which means attacking without provocation and not stopping until somebody is dead) is pretty much the ONLY trait that they breed for.

But I don't see anything approaching a concensus in even the "responsible" pit bull community that dog aggression is a temperament flaw and needs to be bred away from. Go here: http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833 None of these people are dog fighters. The general feeling is that dog aggression is just part of what makes a pit bull a pit bull. Unfortunately, it is also a big part of what makes so many pit bulls (and sometimes other dogs) dead.

Another more recent poll on the same website asks about two hypothetical dogs, and asks which dog, if either, should be bred. One is a working, dog aggressive dog. The other is a show dog without the temperament flaw of dog aggression. Most people say that neither dog should be bred, and they give a variety of reasons, but hardly anybody says that dog aggression is a reason not to breed the working dog. (18% currently say it is fine to breed the working dog). Several specifically say that dog aggression should not be considered as a factor.

If you can direct me to any pit bull bulletin board anywhere where pit bull people agree that they shouldn't be breeding dogs that are dog aggressive, I would be very interested to see it. At most, it seems to me that a few responsible people timidly point out that dog aggression is a horribly negative trait and they ought to be working to eliminate it, but they are immediately shot down by blowhards who say that it is part of the breed.
  #21  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:21 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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If you can direct me to any pit bull bulletin board anywhere where pit bull people agree that they shouldn't be breeding dogs that are dog aggressive,
How about this one?
  #22  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:23 PM
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wdawson wdawson is offline
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well said pitgrrl
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  #23  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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[QUOTE=OntarioGreys]For crying out loud, that has nothing to do with temperament, it is call instinct, the same reason birds fly south for the winter. Natural instinct for a dog is to chase and kill prey, in some dogs that instinct is stronger than in other, it can't simply be bred out, QUOTE]

I certainly agree that this discussion is muddling up prey drive and dog aggression and they are two separate things. I happen to believe that some dogs who kill cats are actually cat aggressive, NOT just "prey driven" but I agree that it is hard to figure out which an individual dog is, especially when it comes to cats. Plenty of dogs are dog aggressive in a way that has nothing whatsoever to do with prey drive.
  #24  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:28 PM
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None of this has to do with my original post, IMO.
  #25  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Go here: http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833 None of these people are dog fighters. The general feeling is that dog aggression is just part of what makes a pit bull a pit bull. Unfortunately, it is also a big part of what makes so many pit bulls (and sometimes other dogs) dead.
That thread is discussing rescue, pitbull rescue, so it would seem somewhat dillusional to believe one could only work with completely cold dogs. Dog agression has nothing to do with the tempermental stability of a dog and especially if you are focusing your efforts on a breed that is typically DA, one needs to accept it, be responsible about it and move on. It is competely manageable if training and time is put into the dog.
  #26  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:35 PM
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wdawson wdawson is offline
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cygnet

welcome
its about time we had a professional on this board, i mean an animal behavioral analyst , a registered akc expert and a breed identification expert all in one........our lucky day.
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Dad To :
George 18 year beagle, Rest in peace little buddy....love
Beathoven 7 year old mutt
Maggie 5 year jack russell
Felix 15 year tabby
Ozzie 12 year tabby
Tigger 10 year long hair cat
marley just a pup
sasha grand pup___________________________________________________________
Lettin the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin it back in.

Most of the stuff people worry about ain't gonna happen anyway.
  #27  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:43 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitgrrl
Cygnet, I really must respectfully disagree with many of your points, and I do so as an owner of two pitbull crosses who would love to see the day when people stop crossing the street to avoid me, who's dog's have only ever had to fight for couch space and who's never allowed their dogs to hurt a fly, as much as they'd love to chase down all the cats in the area.



Although I have the deepest sympathy for those who have ever lost a pet, especially due to other's negligent behavior, I actually see it as a problem that we have so lost touch with the fact that our "fur babies" are, in fact, still animals, that we would be horrified at any expression of their instincts. Dogs are dogs, they hunt, rollin dead stuff, lick thier butts when guests are over, and in the attempt to live with them in very populated urban areas, we should not forget that they are what they are, even while we act responsibly and keep them out of trouble.



Prey drive is not a temperment flaw, and in the breed in question, as with many others, neither is dog aggression. In pitbulls neither speaks to the stability of the dog's temperment in regards to people, and are manageable with some training and effort on the part of the owner. One of my dogs is extremely prey driven and is dog aggressive. We live in an very busy area, yet he has never so much as laid a paw on a cat and is trained to ignore passing dogs. Although I don't love the fact that he would love to chase cats and fight with other dogs, it would be a sad day, to me, when we would start producing dogs with no drive to do anything because they're easier for John Q Public to own with little effort.



So you've just described a pitbull, minus dog aggression. Again, I'm not really arguing for dog aggression, but rather for drive in general. I love my dog's drive, they put it into almost everything they do. Why would I want that watered down? The same thing that makes them want to chase cats can be channelled into more appropriate behaviors, and frankly, it's awsome when you accomplish that. If one doesn't like that kind of dog, or isn't prepared to deal with all that comes along with responsibly owning one, why not just get another breed?
Why should those who enjoy having drivey dogs, of whatever specific breed, be denied that becuase other's find the idea of chasing a squirrle up a tree distasteful?
I don't "find the idea of chasing a squirrel up a tree distasteful." I find the notion that I might find myself living next door to one of the ten percent of pit bulls (according to this poll of RESPONSIBLE pit bull owners http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833 )whose dogs want to "kill every other dog on sight" slightly worrisomel, though. Wouldn't you? It doesn't make me feel better for you to tell me to "just get another breed" since I am not worried about the dog I get. I am worried about the dog my neighbor gets and its capacity and desire to kill my dogs.

I realize that (in most cases) it takes a screwup for a dog to kill another dog. But most of us are human and we DO screwup. And if you doubt that lots and lots of pit bull owners are at least as apt to screw up as other dog owners, take a trip to death row of the nearest urban shelter and you will see all the living (at least until their time is up) evidence of pit bull owner irresponsibility.

I love high drive dogs. (I have one). But I don't agree with the notion that aggression=drive. Some of the highest drive dogs I know are field bred labradors. They love to work, they don't quit and they are TOTALLY non aggressive toward man or beast. I know plenty of aggressive, sometimes dangerous, low drive dogs (many akitas and chows fit that description) as well.
  #28  
Old September 18th, 2006, 07:54 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitgrrl
That thread is discussing rescue, pitbull rescue, so it would seem somewhat dillusional to believe one could only work with completely cold dogs. Dog agression has nothing to do with the tempermental stability of a dog and especially if you are focusing your efforts on a breed that is typically DA, one needs to accept it, be responsible about it and move on. It is competely manageable if training and time is put into the dog.
Who said "that thread is discussing rescue?" I didn't see that anywhere. Lots of people on that board have rescued pit bulls, lots of them have pit bulls from breeders. And, actually, some rescues DO only rescue non-dog aggressive pit bulls. This, sadly, means that they put down a whole lot of pit bulls.

Sorry, but I disagree that dog aggression is "completely managable." Accidents happen. Even the most responsible dog owner in the world can have a dog get loose. I would wager that everybody or nearly everybody on this board has had a dog get loose at some time in his/her life. (The source of this belief: I was at a seminar of 200 highly responsible dog people, and the speaker asked how many in the audience had never had a dog get loose--ONE person raised her hand. If that is typical, we can say that 99.5% of RESPONSIBLE dog owners have had a loose dog at some point).
  #29  
Old September 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Ok, can you discuss a thread on another board ON the other board? That is not what the intention of this thread was about. This is called "threadjacking". (and beating the dead horse over and over)
  #30  
Old September 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM
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BMDLuver BMDLuver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
I realize that (in most cases) it takes a screwup for a dog to kill another dog. But most of us are human and we DO screwup. And if you doubt that lots and lots of pit bull owners are at least as apt to screw up as other dog owners, take a trip to death row of the nearest urban shelter and you will see all the living (at least until their time is up) evidence of pit bull owner irresponsibility.
I'll address this first then wade through the rest.

Define screwup?

Is it the husky who has spent his last two years living next door to a bichon and had playdates with it, who then picks it up while everyone is sitting around having drinks and devours it before it can be saved? Is that a screwup?

Is it the Bouvier des Flandes who lived with cats for 5 years then one day decided to shred the two cats to death while the owner was at work?

Is it the Great Pyrenese who decides after having the same dogsitter for two years to attack and scar the dogsitter for life?

Is it the Golden Retriever who bit the toddlers nose off after having lived with children for 5 years through all ages?

All known dogs, all considered well adjusted dogs, not rescues,from topnotch breeders not fight breeders. None screwups IMHO.
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