#1
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Anybody see the pitbull bash in the gazette?
Thursday in the Montreal Gazette, somebody sent in a letter saying his cat was killed by a pitty and pitties shouldn't be allowed in the city. I can't find it on the net, but I'll type it up later...
I'm gonna write back. |
#2
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oh you're kidding,.. WTF! bet his alley cat was loose without a collar, peeing in somebody's garden, and the dog got upset and nature took its course? grumble grumble. as if labradors, dalmations and even spaniels can't kill cats!!
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#3
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No pit bulls near homes
Thursday September 14th, 2006
page A30 of the Montreal Gazette Quote:
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#4
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Most dogs aren't going to kill other domesticated animals. People who own dogs who have the propensity to kill other people's pets should understand that most other people don't see a dog who kills their pet as "nature taking it's course." They see that as a dangerously aggressive animal who has just killed one of their family members.
High levels of aggression directed at domestic animals is a temperament flaw. It should be no more acceptable for a pit bull breeder to breed a pit bull with killer levels of dog (or cat) aggression because "it's just part of the breed" than it is for a golden retriever breeder to breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia because "it's just part of the breed" . At least there aren't any golden retriever breeders who are breeding FOR hip dysplasia. Unfortunately we can't say the same about pit bull breeders and dangerous levels of dog aggression. If pit bull people want to serve pit bulls, they should stop thinking that people who object to the temperament flaw of animal aggression are unfairly "bashing" pit bulls and think of ways to eliminate it (at least among pit bulls not bred for fighting--obviously there is a huge contingent of pit bull breeders who LIKE animal aggression). A good place to start would be to make dog aggression a disqualification in the AKC AmStaff and staffordshire bull terrier standards and in the UKC American pit bull standard. Think of how much GOOD would come if these standards added a "Temperament" section that read: "A gushingly friendly temperament is characteristic of the breed. Dogs should wag their tails enthusiastically upon being approached by the judge (or any other human being). A dog who moves slightly because he is wiggling with happiness upon being touched should not be faulted, but a dog who is aloof or uninterested in the judge is not displaying proper temperament and shall be faulted accordingly. A dog who displays any degree shyness whatsoever shall not place. A dog who displays any aggression toward any person in the ring shall be disqualified. While American Staffordshire terriers was historically known as dog aggressive, dog aggression is completely incompatible with the modern role of the American Staffordshire terrier as a working companion animal. Consequently, any AmStaff who shows any dog aggression in the ring shall be disqualified." Think of the GOOD publicity that this would give "pit bulls" when the television announcer at Westminster says every year "AmStaffs and Staffordshire bull terriers are the only two breeds where failure to wag their tail at, and be happy to see, the judge is a fault." People would start to see pit bulls as FRIENDLY dogs (which they properly should be) rather than as menacing dogs. |
#5
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I once brought home a lab/beagle cross from the humane society and the first thing it did was kill my sister's kitten. We were so upset that I had to bring the dog back to the humane society (I ended up with a puppy instead from them)- but that was not a vicious dog at all; she just didn't know that the cat was a part of the family that she was to tolerate. It was my fault because I didn't train her or acclimatize her to the rules of her new home, I assumed that she would be ok with the cat. Just the other day my labx Sam just killed a mouse out of the woodpile. Does this mean he is an aggressive dog? Not in the least. I think it is right to blame the owner for letting his dog out of his control (ie loose and on someone else's property)- |
#6
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Well, the part about letting the dog roam free definitely tells us right away that this owner is less than responsible. It could have been any breed after that.
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#7
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oh my... that is just so wrong. i retract what i said before! but unless you live on street-level and your door is wide open (which is rare in a city specially that neighborhood) , how else would a stray dog enter your home? people! close your doors! the cat could as well have walked out of the appartment, crossed the street and gotten squished by a car. this story makes no sense. There are many inconsistensies in this story. so the dog was not agressive since it was hit by a crutch and didn't bite back, it was focussed on the cat (aka prey). how did it get in the home in the first place, did it ring the doorbell and ask to be let in? stupid owners.. grrrr. always the stupid owners.
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#8
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I disagree too . . . Many breeds are notorious for killing small, fleeing animals. (Huskies, greyhounds, whippets.) Half the dogs in the local daschund rescue have a note in their profile saying they can't have homes with cats. No, animal aggressiveness should not be encouraged or specifically bred for, but if it's there, that doesn't mean the dog is a threat to humans.
It does mean the owners should take the responsibility to keep the dog safely contained in their yard, of course. |
#9
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Looks are deceiving, I challenge the author of the letter to prove this was indeed a pitbull. I had a neighbor (not the sharpest tool in the shed mind you) ask me if Simon was a pittie, seriously, a pitbull. It occurred to me then and there, that there are folks willing to classify anything shorthaired and of medium build (30lbs+) as a pitbull if it serves a purpose to do so, mentally biased or just plain ignorant of what different breeds of dog actually look like. Also, you have to actually *get* ppl to either watch or attend dog shows en masse in order to change the mass opinion folks have of pits, AmStaffs and Bull terriers if it were as simple as an announcer;s/judge's verbiage
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"Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you" Ralph Waldo Emerson ~Those who KNOW better are responsible to TEACH better~ Jenn, Simon and Peaches 12/14/03 |
#10
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It seems that as soon as a dog attacks anything either human or animal it is immediately deemed a pitbull . Did we not have at least 3 mistaken IDs just before this pitbull ban came into effect ? The "less than Honourable" Mr Bryant even went on TV after 2 of these misIDs and stated that these attacks are why we need a ban . The problem was just after he went on his usual rant the dogs were properly ID'd and the public{at least any that were watching} seen him for what he is a grandstanding polititian{not the first}.
On another note my niece has a jackrussel terrier that has attacked many cats and killed at least one that i know of. Yet no one has called this dog a menace or that he should be banned from living in the city of Hamilton. If he was a pit I am sure that by now he would have been PTS. And I agree this storey is very incomplete . People as dog owners have a responsibility to keep their dogs from running at large . But in the same note if your door is left open who knows what might wander in or out ? As for the letter stating that the dog is likely to escape again and is dangerous . That is fair warning to the nieghbourhood . But stating that the next victim could be your child is "fear mongering" there is no basis for this statement . The dog attacked an animal not the woman that tried to get it off the cat . Even after she hit the dog there is nothing stating the dog turned on her or showed any human aggression whatsoever to her or the police.
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"One Nation controlled by the Media" GreenDay Last edited by seeker; September 18th, 2006 at 03:11 PM. |
#11
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Why should these cats be allowed to roam free in the city???? I've got at least a dozen cats right now that are teasing my dog - day in, day out - they do their business in my garden, pee at my front door, and screech at night. Yeah, I'm fed up with them and if my dog were to be left alone unsupervised in my yard - it wouldn't take long for my dog to jump any size fence up to 8' to get a hold of a cat that had just crossed the back fence of my yard.
If you're going to let your cat roam free - face the consequences. It can get hit by a car, killed by a dog, or even poisoned by some creep. It's not worth it. |
#12
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K9Friend,I agree,cats should not be roaming bothering other people but like with dogs running lose being the owners fault,the same goes for cats.
I don't know how this dog got access to the cat-owners house,sounds a little fishy to me. But if this was the case and the owner lets the dog run loose,she/he IMO has lost the priviledge to own a dog,unless the dog broke loose and was lost. I can understand the cat-owner being hysterical after witnessing something this horrible and knowing how many people view Pit-Bulls:sad:he uses the pittie breed, to frighten people. He is angry and sad after losing his 10yr old cat,as I would be,unfortunately he lashes out at all Pit-Bulls in general
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"The cruelest animal is the Human animal" 3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie |
#13
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When you are dealing with a trait that is completely and totally negative (as dog aggression is for pit bulls), it isn't enough to say that you aren't breeding FOR it. You really have to consciously breed away from it. After all, would it be good enough for you if a golden retriever breeder said "I don't breed FOR hip dysplasia in my dogs..." or should they actually test for it and eliminate the dogs with this genetic flaw from their breeding program? Why is the completely negative trait of dog aggression any different from hip dysplasia? And who said anything about dog aggression necessarily meaning "that the dog is a threat to humans?" What dog aggression means is that the dog is a threat to dogs. That certainly can up the chances that a human being will get hurt (we recently discussed an incident where a pit bull/mastiff bit off a woman's finger when she was trying to break up a dog fight to protect a child who was trapped), but even if you ignore that, just being a threat to other dogs is enough to make dog aggression a temperament flaw, isn't it? |
#14
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And who here hasn't EVER had a dog get loose? I am a highly responsible dog owner, and I have had loose dogs more often than I can remember. |
#15
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I certainly agree that dog aggressive dogs come in many breeds. I don't know the specifics of your pointer's attack on the bichon puppy, but if it was aggressive, (you seem to be saying it was defensive, and that he was "charged" by the puppy) I'd say that your dog doesn't have a proper pointer temperament. That isn't a crime, and it doesn't mean you can't love him, it just means that he shouldn't be bred. REsponsible pointer breeders would not breed a pointer who was dog aggressive, because pointers in the field need to be able to work cooperatively with a bracemate (often another unneutered male) whom they have never met before. They also should ignore small critters who might run in front of their noses, in favor of finding and pointing (not trying to catch and kill even then) birds. Dog aggression is a completely negative trait in a pointer, as it is in every breed. (The only possible exception I can think of is livestock guarding dogs). The difference is that responsible pointer breeders know that dog aggression is a negative trait. Pit bull breeders? Um...discouragingly, a lot of them say it is "just part of the breed." |
#16
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there is not enough info about this story in the media........one heresay letter from a supposed victim,as i posted in another thread,show me actual proof this is definitely a pit and not has like characteristics or similar looks....again this so far is heresay about the breed...and to say a dog who is alittle sheepish towards a strangers first approach is an aggressive dog is ridicules,animals get nervous just like people.....and stress on a show dog must change on a show by show basis.
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Wayne Dad To : George 18 year beagle, Rest in peace little buddy....love Beathoven 7 year old mutt Maggie 5 year jack russell Felix 15 year tabby Ozzie 12 year tabby Tigger 10 year long hair cat marley just a pup sasha grand pup___________________________________________________________ Lettin the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin it back in. Most of the stuff people worry about ain't gonna happen anyway. |
#17
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1) many of these alleged "pitbulls" are not even pitbulls 2) you don't know the backstory of ANY dog unless it's been your own from puppyhood I've seen other threads where you've quoted "statistics", unfortunately, most of these are assumptions and suppositions on your part, and not actually backed up by any reputable sources. I'd love to see this: Quote:
As wdawson put it, all the facts are not in, and per my story and point, no dog can be judged solely on it's breed, nor can that single judgement become a breed standard and grounds for a ban or bash.
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"Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you" Ralph Waldo Emerson ~Those who KNOW better are responsible to TEACH better~ Jenn, Simon and Peaches 12/14/03 |
#18
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And my 27 lb eskie with also chase and try to killed animals, she has caught birds and even managed to get hold of a full grown rabbit in the yard but was unable to hold it and she also is afraid of toddlers to the point of avoiding them rather than running and hiding, having a prey instinct does not mean a dog will go after people, Even my mom's shih tzu used to chase after rabbits and cats that were bigger than her. |
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Cygnet, I really must respectfully disagree with many of your points, and I do so as an owner of two pitbull crosses who would love to see the day when people stop crossing the street to avoid me, who's dog's have only ever had to fight for couch space and who's never allowed their dogs to hurt a fly, as much as they'd love to chase down all the cats in the area.
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Why should those who enjoy having drivey dogs, of whatever specific breed, be denied that becuase other's find the idea of chasing a squirrle up a tree distasteful? |
#20
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But I don't see anything approaching a concensus in even the "responsible" pit bull community that dog aggression is a temperament flaw and needs to be bred away from. Go here: http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833 None of these people are dog fighters. The general feeling is that dog aggression is just part of what makes a pit bull a pit bull. Unfortunately, it is also a big part of what makes so many pit bulls (and sometimes other dogs) dead. Another more recent poll on the same website asks about two hypothetical dogs, and asks which dog, if either, should be bred. One is a working, dog aggressive dog. The other is a show dog without the temperament flaw of dog aggression. Most people say that neither dog should be bred, and they give a variety of reasons, but hardly anybody says that dog aggression is a reason not to breed the working dog. (18% currently say it is fine to breed the working dog). Several specifically say that dog aggression should not be considered as a factor. If you can direct me to any pit bull bulletin board anywhere where pit bull people agree that they shouldn't be breeding dogs that are dog aggressive, I would be very interested to see it. At most, it seems to me that a few responsible people timidly point out that dog aggression is a horribly negative trait and they ought to be working to eliminate it, but they are immediately shot down by blowhards who say that it is part of the breed. |
#21
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#22
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well said pitgrrl
__________________
Wayne Dad To : George 18 year beagle, Rest in peace little buddy....love Beathoven 7 year old mutt Maggie 5 year jack russell Felix 15 year tabby Ozzie 12 year tabby Tigger 10 year long hair cat marley just a pup sasha grand pup___________________________________________________________ Lettin the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin it back in. Most of the stuff people worry about ain't gonna happen anyway. |
#23
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[QUOTE=OntarioGreys]For crying out loud, that has nothing to do with temperament, it is call instinct, the same reason birds fly south for the winter. Natural instinct for a dog is to chase and kill prey, in some dogs that instinct is stronger than in other, it can't simply be bred out, QUOTE]
I certainly agree that this discussion is muddling up prey drive and dog aggression and they are two separate things. I happen to believe that some dogs who kill cats are actually cat aggressive, NOT just "prey driven" but I agree that it is hard to figure out which an individual dog is, especially when it comes to cats. Plenty of dogs are dog aggressive in a way that has nothing whatsoever to do with prey drive. |
#24
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None of this has to do with my original post, IMO.
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#26
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cygnet
welcome its about time we had a professional on this board, i mean an animal behavioral analyst , a registered akc expert and a breed identification expert all in one........our lucky day.
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Wayne Dad To : George 18 year beagle, Rest in peace little buddy....love Beathoven 7 year old mutt Maggie 5 year jack russell Felix 15 year tabby Ozzie 12 year tabby Tigger 10 year long hair cat marley just a pup sasha grand pup___________________________________________________________ Lettin the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin it back in. Most of the stuff people worry about ain't gonna happen anyway. |
#27
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I realize that (in most cases) it takes a screwup for a dog to kill another dog. But most of us are human and we DO screwup. And if you doubt that lots and lots of pit bull owners are at least as apt to screw up as other dog owners, take a trip to death row of the nearest urban shelter and you will see all the living (at least until their time is up) evidence of pit bull owner irresponsibility. I love high drive dogs. (I have one). But I don't agree with the notion that aggression=drive. Some of the highest drive dogs I know are field bred labradors. They love to work, they don't quit and they are TOTALLY non aggressive toward man or beast. I know plenty of aggressive, sometimes dangerous, low drive dogs (many akitas and chows fit that description) as well. |
#28
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Sorry, but I disagree that dog aggression is "completely managable." Accidents happen. Even the most responsible dog owner in the world can have a dog get loose. I would wager that everybody or nearly everybody on this board has had a dog get loose at some time in his/her life. (The source of this belief: I was at a seminar of 200 highly responsible dog people, and the speaker asked how many in the audience had never had a dog get loose--ONE person raised her hand. If that is typical, we can say that 99.5% of RESPONSIBLE dog owners have had a loose dog at some point). |
#29
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Ok, can you discuss a thread on another board ON the other board? That is not what the intention of this thread was about. This is called "threadjacking". (and beating the dead horse over and over)
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#30
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Define screwup? Is it the husky who has spent his last two years living next door to a bichon and had playdates with it, who then picks it up while everyone is sitting around having drinks and devours it before it can be saved? Is that a screwup? Is it the Bouvier des Flandes who lived with cats for 5 years then one day decided to shred the two cats to death while the owner was at work? Is it the Great Pyrenese who decides after having the same dogsitter for two years to attack and scar the dogsitter for life? Is it the Golden Retriever who bit the toddlers nose off after having lived with children for 5 years through all ages? All known dogs, all considered well adjusted dogs, not rescues,from topnotch breeders not fight breeders. None screwups IMHO.
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"For every animal that dies in a shelter, there is someone somewhere responsible for its death". |
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