mixed breeds and dogs snobs

[fruithead]

my family and i plan to get a puppy this late winter and i have been doing quite a bit of research on my dog of choice, the schnoodle.

during my numerous internet searches, i am appalled to come across legions of "dog snobs", these people who don't condone the breeding of a mixed breed dog and consider any breeder of such an animal as a puppy mill.

these people are out of their minds. i know schnoodle owners and owners of other mutts and these are wonderful pets and companions. i see nothing wrong with a breeder breeding schnoodles for the sole purpose to sell them as pets. "dog snobs" often define puppy mills as any place where a profit is made. why shouldn't these breeders make a profit? how are these breeders any worse than those who don't breed dogs for pets and only for show purposes?

in my opinion, it's these purebred enthusists who parade their pets at dogs shows and ship them around the continent to show-off. they're no better than parents who push their little girls into beauty pagents.

i think schnoodles are beautiful dogs and i don't give a damn if they're recognized by the kennel club or not. at least they won't suffer the same health problems as some purebred with a tiny gene pool. i will buy a schnoodle and i will do it with a clear conscience.

[Bugsy]

Have you thought about adopting a homeless dog?

www.petfinder.com

[twinmommy]

when you say late winter....you mean late this year, or when winter's almost over? I don't want to tell you what to do, but there are alot of dogs that need loving homes after the "christmas rush", you could wait until then if you were planning to wait anyways.

[LavenderRott]

Well, you know what, with over 106,000 dogs sitting in shelters and rescue groups in this country, and thousands of dogs euthanized every day, you can call me whatever you like but stop breeding mutts for money! While every breeder of mutts may not be a puppy mill, they are irresponsible and certainly not looking after the health and welfare of their dogs.

Responsible breeders show their dogs to assure that they are within the stardard for that breed. Then they show them some more to be sure that the dog is capable of doing the job that it was bred for. Then they spend hundreds of dollars for health tests to be sure that the dog they are breeding won't pass on genetic diseases to their puppies. And more often then not, the puppies born aren't shown but sold to wonderful pet homes. After careful consideration, that is. A responsible breeder certainly wouldn't sell a dog to just anyone. I know several breeders of very fine dogs and you would have an easier time adopting a child then getting one of their puppies.

I promise you this, someone who is selling more then one breed of designer puppies is at the very least a commercial kennel. The dogs are kept in cages their entire lives with their only human interaction being feeding time. They never put their feet to grass, and the certainly don't run and play with the family children. Vet care is as close to non existant as it comes because that cuts into the profits.

And if you think that puppy mills are just a figment of the Animal Right Wacko's out there. Think again. I know a lovely woman that has a doxie that was born deaf and with no eyes. The first time she saw the dog, it was sold at 6 months at a dog auction AS A BREEDER. And the dog sold for a considerable amount of money! Why? Because at 6 months old, she was about to come into season.

I sure hope that when you find your schnoodle, the puppy's breeder was careful about breeding his/her dogs. Hybrid vigor is a myth and any genetic problems that can be found in the parents or the parents genetic lines, can be found in the pup. I found a couple of genetic issues you may (or not, if you truly buy into the hybrid vigor myth) be interested in looking into before you buy:mucopolysaccharidosis, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Renal Dysplasia and Patellar Luxation.

[Lucky Rescue]

What LavenderRott said.

This has nothing to do with being "snobs", and everything to do with people who care about the fact that millions of dogs are slaughtered in shelters every year because people like you want "designer" mixed breeds.

You need to educate yourself to the fact that there is a huge overpopulation of dogs, and not enough homes. You know why? Because people are willing to pay big bucks for badly bred dogs being pumped out for profit.

If you love dogs or care anything about them, you'll take a mixed breed from a shelter or rescue and give it a loving home.

In that way, you can be a small part of the solution, instead of being part of the problem.

[Sheriffmom]

I find it interesting that your very first post sounds like a bull going through a china shop. It sounds like you are just trying to stir the pot. If you read any posts prior to posting, you would've seen what the general consensus is on this board towards Puppymills, petstores and commercial kennels. Why bother posting here? You've already made up your mind, nothing we say will change it, and very few of us support your decision. Why not find a board more suited to your needs... because from your post we've already been judged as "snobs".

[Sheriffmom]

PS here are some listings for poodle cross puppies
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...=0&tmpl=&stat=
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...=0&tmpl=&stat=
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...=0&tmpl=&stat=

[TobsterMom]

First of all...those puppies are adorable...especially the last one :love:

Secondly, I have to agree...it drives me crazy that these people are cross breeding dogs and pumping out puppies for money. There is one particular website (not naming) from a pet establisment in PEI who are making a fortune from crossed breeds. I visited there last summer and the summer before, and each time, it broke my heart to leave those puppies there. I also check the website regularly, out of pure curiosity....they always have tons of puppies, which is sad because you just imagine where they come from.

Please adopt from a shelter.

[pitbulliest]

Shnoodles....Labradoodles...Shichis....darn..every other freak dogs you can imagine are all a product of BACKYARD BREEDING...

I like to call them "fad breeds"... kinda like a fashion craving that some people just have....pretty stupid huh? I agree!

There are tons of wonderful mixed breeds (which is what you'll be getting, and probably paying some BYB breeder around 600 at least for it!) in the shelter that need homes as we speak...

[Mom_Of_Two_Dogs]

More on the poo breeds, including the "schnoodle":

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/poodogs.html

[Lucky Rescue]

I want a Collapso - a collie x lhasa apso that folds up for easy transport.

[Shaykeija]

Originally Posted by LuckyRescue

I want a Collapso - a collie x lhasa apso that folds up for easy transport.

Now that one made me laugh until my face hurt. Good one Lucky..

[Delirium]

I already have one of those!!!! I'm amazed at the shapes my Toby contorts himself into while trying to find the perfect sleeping spot on the couch.

I'm not a snob, i'm a realist.

Dee

[Schwinn]

Just a question (please don't get upset with me), but, what is wrong with getting a dog from a pet store? I mean, I'm against puppy mills, and my wife and I both agreed we would only get a dog from a shelter or humane society, because we don't want to see those dogs go homeless. But for arguements, sake, let's suppose you want a specific dog, but not for showing. (I have a friend who paid a few hundred dollars for a specific breed of cat, but isn't going to show it. I think that's nuts). So you go to a pet store, because you can't find that breed of dog at the local shelter. I was thinking of this as I was looking at the Shelties at the Doogan's in Newmarket. I haven't seen them in our local shelter, so what if you want that specific dog? Yes, it may not be a "pure" sheltie, but it also wasn't several hundred dollars, either. Again, I'm only playing devil's advocate, but there are people who want a specific type of dog, but don't want to pay a tonne of money for it. And I've seen breeders who care for the dogs, and who aren't breeding hundreds of dogs and sticking them in tiny cages. Just a thought. Please don't eat me...

[Writing4Fun]

Lucky, your post had hubby and me literally rolling around, laughing.

"Dog snobs"? That is very laughable on this particular site! Anyone who read any of the posts would realize just how rediculous that term is when applied to the people here.

Schwinn, you can find oodles of posts in here on that particular subject. Here's a very recent one:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....+store+puppies

Here's another interesting read:
http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/wha...puppy_mill.htm

[Lucky Rescue]

what is wrong with getting a dog from a pet store? I mean, I'm against puppy mills,

And where do you think pet store puppies come from? They come from mills and disreptuble backyard breeders who don't give a damn who gets their puppies as long as they get the money.

Many people don't realize this as the pet store will never tell you.

Petstores are simply middlemen for the mills.

Anyone who buys a puppy OR kitten at a petstore is directly funding and condoning mills.

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by LuckyRescue

And where do you think pet store puppies come from? They come from mills and disreptuble backyard breeders who don't give a damn who gets their puppies as long as they get the money.

Many people don't realize this as the pet store will never tell you.

Petstores are simply middlemen for the mills.

Anyone who buys a puppy OR kitten at a petstore is directly funding and condoning mills.

I guess this is the crux of my question. Are all dogs from the pet store from puppy mills? Is it not possible they came from someone who doesn't happen to be an actual breeder of pure breds, but a dog breeder none the less? Or does that make them a "puppy mill"? And if so, are all puppy mills bad? Again, I'm just asking questions. My first reaction to the question of "are all puppy mills bad" is yes, absolutely. But what I consider a puppy mill is a place that churns them out like inanmimate objects, poor living conditions, etc. Is it possible that there are people who breed dogs for general consumption, but treat them as well as your average CKC registered breeder? I don't know. Just throwing the questions out there for debate. I'm not defending or condemning.


Writing4fun:thanks for the links. I've saved them for a chance to check them out.

[mastifflover]

Schwinn I think you can pretty well assume that all pet stores are supplied by BYB or puppymills and if they are supplying that many dogs to a store how ethical can they be. My friend bought a pug from a pet store the first weekend she spent 1800.00 at the vets after fighting with the store for the papers and vet costs she finally won but only after threatening and having her lawyer send a letter. Since then she has become a very vocal advocate for getting pets out of pet stores. Of course when I told her how adamant I was that she not buy a pup from a pet store that all went in one ear and out the other. So after spending more money on her pug which is healthy now she could have gone to a reputable breeder and bought not only a pup but a show quality pup with all the testing and papers. I have never seen her dogs papers but I am sure they are bogus.

[Sheriffmom]

Schwinn,
My way of thinking on this is if you go to a reputable breeder or a reputable rescue you have to answere a million and one questions, they completely check you out, including living conditions etc.... A petstore doesn't give a crap as long as you have the cashola, they don't offer guarentees, they don't give you pedigrees (not for showing but to prove mom and dad and grandparents were all healthy and free of defects/genetic problems), they will not give you breeder info (ask yourself), they don't check up on how your pup is doing, they don't answere questions if there is a problem with your dog. NO reputable breeder would ever subject their puppies to this, and why would they? Ask or call any reputable breeder, ask them why they don't sell to petstores? I was at Doogans at the Georgian Mall and was appalled at the condition of the pups, the size of their cages, how many were packed into one of those tiny cages... they were also moocho grande expensive (English Bullie for $5000, mixes betwwen $600 and $1000). Also you have to ask yourself.... what happens to the ones that don't sell before they have outgrown "cuteness"???
Ask the store where they go....
Just my 2 cents

[GsdDiamond]

Originally Posted by Schwinn

Are all dogs from the pet store from puppy mills? Is it not possible they came from someone who doesn't happen to be an actual breeder of pure breds, but a dog breeder none the less?

Anybody who breeds pet quality dogs for profit is a miller. A reputable show dog breeder will sell pet quality dogs for just enough to pay for the vet bills incurred, food the dog ate....and that's pretty much it. The breeder we got Diamond from only charged $800 for her, and that included 2 sets of shots, vet checkups, home visits, dog food to take home (breed specific too) and a verbal agreement to spay her (which we were going to do anyways). Reputable breeders don't make much, if any, profit on pet quality dogs. That's what makes them differ from BYB/millers.

BYB/millers don't supply vets for their animals, takes away profits.
They eat crap dog food, because the good stuff costs too much.

Pet stores, unless they're adopting out pets (call it selling if you like), will be from a BYB/miller unless they say they're from a local shelter. They encourage you to call the shelter if you don't see anything you want to adopt. Big name companies that sell puppies/kittens, don't give a rat's a$$ where they get their animals from, as long as they get to make a good chunk of change. When I was younger (and didn't know better) I bought a kitten from a big box pet supply company. The cat had ear mites so bad the Vet I brought him to wrote a letter to the pet supply company and demanded they reimburse me for the medication or she would contact the government agency responsible for granting licenses to sell animals and have theirs pulled! (I just loved that Vet!!!) People selling animals for profit don't care if the animal is sick when they sell it. Reputable breeders do care, and follow up the animal's journey to health again. I've even seen some breeders who won't sell an animal until it's 100% healthy again. That's caring!

[GsdDiamond]

Originally Posted by Sheriffmom

Also you have to ask yourself.... what happens to the ones that don't sell before they have outgrown "cuteness"???
Ask the store where they go....

Very true! You can usually judge a good pet store from a bad one by the animals you see going in and out of their cages.

One pet store we have at the end of our street has had the same cat for many months. The pet store works closely with the Humane Society here, so, not that I know for sure, I'd say they sell animals that are up for adoption. Makes me wonder....so I'll ask next time I'm there.

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by Sheriffmom

Also you have to ask yourself.... what happens to the ones that don't sell before they have outgrown "cuteness"???
Ask the store where they go....
Just my 2 cents

It's funny you say that. My wife asked me the same thing when we were in Doogan's in Newmarket. I said I thought they would take them to a shelter, but didn't know.

You know, this is definitly food for thought. I'm going to have to look into this further. I've always advocated the Humane Society for pets, but haven't really ever had an opinion either way on pet stores.

[LavenderRott]

Some pups that son't sell are returned to the broker, then to the breeder. These dogs are usually sold at auction to begin their own breeding careers.

[Sheriffmom]

Schwinn I encourage you to read this little blip on petfinders http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...25&tmpl=&stat=
This is in regards to a pup we were putting in to adopt :sad:

[CyberKitten]

Schwinn ,

I know this has already been answered but pet stores are where back yard breeders and puppy mills sell those poor abused, neglected dogs to unsuspecting customers. The ONLY way one can be assured of obtaining a purebred puppy (or kitten for that matter) that is registered with all the appropriate papers and know with some certainty that the animal's health and pedigree are adequate (if that is what you are seeking as opposed to some wonderful moggy puppies and kittens that may well be healthier overall) is to find a reputable breeder.

This is not an easy task as I discovered in my search for a Seal Point Siamese. (Yes I know there are wonderful moggy cats I could love but all my life I wanted this type if Siamese kitty and so thus I began my adventure in searching for a Siamese cat!)

You have to investgate every breeder - even the ones listed in the top dog and specific breed publications and online sites. It took me many months - and I was willing to adopt a special needs Seal Point or even Blue Point if necessary - but that fell through over some mixed signals.

Just because a breeder says they are CKC registered does not mean they are the healthiest puppies or that the breeder is recognized by the various breeders' associations. These groups (and I hesitate to use my own profession - the medical prfession - but it is similar. They self regulate and so it is buyer beware - though there is considerably more legslation covering doctors. Perhaps clinical psychologists would be a better example. In some states, practically anyone can call him or herself a psychologist (Dr. Phil for example - he is not a pychologist tho he is making great $$$ playing one on TV, lol).

Anyway, it is the same with these groups. You need to see the breeder, visit them, see the parents. A good breeder will show you the nursery - but be cautious about picking up the babies and will have no hesitation is sharing the medical history of the mom and dad (and of the shows they've participated in). Most breeders of this natire are not in it for the money. They spend a small fortune showing their pets and they breed the mom perhaps once so they can continue the line.

A reputable breeder will also recommend rescue groups and some of them even sell some of their adults who are no longer being shown in competition. (I at first was appalled by this and still am not keen on purchasing a pet in this way but someone on this Board pointed out that the adopted pet (and you will still pay a significant price for the animal - but it rarely covers the money spent by the breeder) - will get more attention and love from one family than in a home of show dogs or cats of which this one is not one!

I searched out the smaller breeders whose Queens are part of the family and are bred only once and at the most twice and NEVER too young! This is the kind of family I adopted Yin Yin from. They had two female Siamese kitties - and had three for sale, one Seal Point and two Blue Point. The mother and the other female cat both gave my little baby lots of love and attention and she was well socialized and used to family life. She was fed good cat food, they had good vet references and the mother and the father - who lived in another part of New Brunswick (I went to see him too) both had very sweet temperments. Both had won a plethora of competitions but that was not my objective. I purchased a Show quality kitten even though I wanted a pet because I found a kitten I fell in live with!!

Anyway, that's my two cents on puppy and kitten mills. Sorry for being so long winded!!

I don't think I need to describe by breeders or puppy mills who are in it for one motivation only - to make a profit!! (Just as are pet stores!)

I forget what breed you are searching for but I do wish you luck.

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

I forget what breed you are searching for but I do wish you luck.

Actually, I wasn't, I was just bringing up the questions, more out of curiousity than anything else. I have often wondered about the possibility of something existing between the abhorrant puppy-mill and the breeder. Myself, I would always get a dog from the shelter, even if I wanted a specific breed. If I couldn't find it, I would probably wait. Not saying that's the way it should be done, just what I would do. But I've always wondered what else was out there. I tend to ask the "what if?" questions a lot. Even if I don't believe in the answers. It's part of my boyish charm

Thanks for the info, everyone!

[Lucky Rescue]

Is it possible that there are people who breed dogs for general consumption, but treat them as well as your average CKC registered breeder? I don't know. Just throwing the questions out there for debate. I'm not defending or condemning.

Sure, there are people breeding dogs who treat them nicely,and maybe even spoil them. They probably got a male and female - no health testing, no titles - and put them together to make some money.

BUT, they are being totally irresponsible and adding to the overpopulation of badly bred dogs, and breeding them for money and nothing else.

Every time someone buys these puppies, these people are encouraged to keep pumping them out and many will end up on the pages of Petfinder, or worse since of course these people would never take them back.

These puppies may be CKC registered, but that means precisely nothing, other than that the parents are purebreds and of the same breed. This does not mean they are not being exploited, have a host of health or temperament problems, or that the breeders are remotely reputable.

[CyberKitten]

Re: I have a friend who paid a few hundred dollars for a specific breed of cat, but isn't going to show it. I think that's nuts

I just noticed this (must have read the post too quickly the 1st time).

I paid lots for Yin Yin but she is a pet and I have absolutely no plans to show her. And it is insulting - boyish charm notwithstanding - for you to suggest I am nuts. It is also judgemental. There are some comments here I find hard to take but often say nothing just because it is not worth it and I won't change anyone's opinion. But your comment is hurtful but I will hope that it is based on lack of knowledge rather than wanting to call anyone's sanity into question.

The family I purchased Yin Yin from spent a small fortune to breed their cat. It is no easy task if done properly. There are vet fees, late nights with mom, feeding the kittens properly, ensuring they eat properly, the cost fo breed with someone else's cat in the first place, other fees I am certain I am forgetting. Breeders who do it properly never get their money back but they achieve their objective of contuning the line. So while my fee may have been high, I have a gurenteed healthy kitten from a good home and while I do not care what line she is from, I do love my cat as much as the person who does want to show them. And really, that is up to them. Just because you or I would not engage in this, we have no right to be judgemental. Not does anyone have the right to question anyone's sanity. (In my workplace, it is consdiered harassment!)

I thought we had a policy about no flaming or uttering nasty comments on this site?

And if it was meant as a joke, I did not take it as such. We just recently layed off a CEO because of some comments he made that were hugely inappropriate and hurtful!!!

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

Re: I have a friend who paid a few hundred dollars for a specific breed of cat, but isn't going to show it. I think that's nuts

I just noticed this (must have read the post too quickly the 1st time).

I paid lots for Yin Yin but she is a pet and I have absolutely no plans to show her. And it is insulting - boyish charm notwithstanding - for you to suggest I am nuts. It is also judgemental. There are some comments here I find hard to take but often say nothing just because it is not worth it and I won't change anyone's opinion. But your comment is hurtful but I will hope that it is based on lack of knowledge rather than wanting to call anyone's sanity into question.

The family I purchased Yin Yin from spent a small fortune to breed their cat. It is no easy task if done properly. There are vet fees, late nights with mom, feeding the kittens properly, ensuring they eat properly, the cost fo breed with someone else's cat in the first place, other fees I am certain I am forgetting. Breeders who do it properly never get their money back but they achieve their objective of contuning the line. So while my fee may have been high, I have a gurenteed healthy kitten from a good home and while I do not care what line she is from, I do love my cat as much as the person who does want to show them. And really, that is up to them. Just because you or I would not engage in this, we have no right to be judgemental. Not does anyone have the right to question anyone's sanity. (In my workplace, it is consdiered harassment!)

I thought we had a policy about no flaming or uttering nasty comments on this site?

And if it was meant as a joke, I did not take it as such. We just recently layed off a CEO because of some comments he made that were hugely inappropriate and hurtful!!!

I apologize. I said that as a comment on my friend, and there is more to the story than what I stated. I didn't think my comment through when I was stating it, please don't take it as an affront to you. I made an off-hand remark, I will be more careful in my words.

And Lucky, you make a good point about contributing to the over-population. As I said, I'm just musing out-loud. And I've often thought I wouldn't buy from a pet store when there are so many animals needing good homes at the pound. Especially now when I see Daisy sitting there with her tail wagging, after she was found wandering the highway as a puppy, and was already rejected after one prospective owner took her home. I've seen what some of these puppy mills do to the animals, and it makes me sick. You've added another dimension to the arguement, however.

[CyberKitten]

Apology accepted!

Unfortunately, online we often make commets - and because relationships develop more quickly online There is an actual soc study on this, lol - that we assume others will understand. I am sometimes supersensitive but your comment seemed clear to me - I was nuts if I paid megabucks for a cat I have no intention of showing. (And it was such an epic stuggle to find the puurfect kitten/cat!!!), sighhhhhhh