#31
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When you become frustrated with a dog - YOU STOP. Period. End of discussion. At the point he become frustrated, he should have handed the dog back to the owner and offered to try again away from the crowd. You can not accomplish any type of training with a dog that is stressed out and you are frustrated. It is like arguing with a toddler over a piece of candy.
AT NO POINT SHOULD A CORRECTION FOR A SIT INVOLVE LIFTING A DOG'S FRONT FEET OFF OF THE GROUND. A dog with dog aggression issues should never have been in the situation to start with. It should have been worked one on one away from other dogs until it could focus on the handler in that crowd. Sorry, but you are not going to convince me that he is a good trainer. Especially after hearing some of his other advice which includes hitting a dog to teach it.
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Sandi |
#32
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[QUOTE=LavenderRott;801259]When you become frustrated with a dog - YOU STOP. Period. End of discussion. At the point he become frustrated, he should have handed the dog back to the owner and offered to try again away from the crowd. You can not accomplish any type of training with a dog that is stressed out and you are frustrated. It is like arguing with a toddler over a piece of candy.
AT NO POINT SHOULD A CORRECTION FOR A SIT INVOLVE LIFTING A DOG'S FRONT FEET OFF OF THE GROUND. A dog with dog aggression issues should never have been in the situation to start with. It should have been worked one on one away from other dogs until it could focus on the handler in that crowd. QUOTE] I have to agree 100%. |
#33
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I was looking for the whole video, I'm glad you posted an account, LynneB.
I was curious what happened between him saying "you're annoying" and him smacking the dog. I THOUGHT I caught what seemed to be the very tail end of an open-mouthed lunge by the dog handled by Brad, towards the dog handled by the woman in the grey hoodie (who, incidentally, appears to knee her own dog in the head, although she may have intended to block "Brad's" dog, hard to say). It seems that was the case after all. I have to say, if my dog lunged to bite at another dog, she would be corrected also. I still don't agree with the smacking of the nose, but a leash correction would be completely appropriate IMO. I also have to agree that lifting the dog up on his hind feet with the collar is not appropriate or safe. Lifting a dog by his chest with your own arms to stop a dog fight is another thing entirely. I do not think that a dog should have sustained pressure on the neck by any kind of training tool.
__________________
Owned by: Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11) Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9) Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4) Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3) Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months) Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months) __________ Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011) Riley and Molly |
#34
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#35
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"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant |
#36
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I have to agree. If you are correcting a behaviour you must ensure the the scenario is staged well as not have to resort to lifting the dog in seconds to prevent a fight. Everything must be done orderly and ensuring everyone is at a safe distance. Regardless, the other dog was far too close and this should have been addressed.
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#37
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For all I know, it was addressed and just not shown. But the fact of the matter is, out in the real world, you aren't always going to have control of your surroundings. You aren't going to know the history of every dog you walk by, but that doesn't stop you from going to the off leash park and letting your dog socialize, or letting your dog say hi to another dog you don't know on the street. All it takes is one owner that doesn't know anything about aggression, or can't control their dog. You can't always limit access either, because if you're assuming that every dog is aggressive, your dog would never get socialized. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by limiting access? From what I understood watching it, he wasn't walking to the dog that was attacked. He was standing nearby, the dog lunged, and he pulled him back. What's your recommended distance, because a dog can pull and lunge across a pretty far distance in a short period of time. Sorry it just sounds kind of silly to me. I would be more of the opinion that if the owner knew that the dog had some aggression problems, she should have attended the seminar with a muzzle, it's not like Brad is a mind reader on what kind of issues a dog has when he's had very little time to observe them. This was Day 2 of a 2 day seminar in Toronto that he did, it was not a class where he knew all the dogs and students. First day was inside with 5 dogs (attendees submitted their dogs for consideration, 5 were picked to work with), second day was outside where everyone was invited to bring their dogs.
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#38
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If you have a class of students - humans and dogs - you ensure everyone and everything is safe. This dog if infact that aggressive should be in private classes first and then would move into a scenario where he will be accessed. Brad missed watching the body language of the dog because he was too busy addressing the woman. He lost control - and he is not suppose to.
He set the mood, and the dog reacted - this is ABC. Set the right mood, be alert, be assertive but composed. He did none of the following now did he. |
#39
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Lynne.. ok ok, we know you think he is wonderful, but come on, really I think it is time you take off the rose colored glasses. That behavior that he did is not acceptable PERIOD! training is a time to bond with your dog to get positive results. His little attitude where he tosses back the dog, and struts off with his snooty comment, AND you don't have a 6 foot leash! Did you see how the people around him are scared of him? Even on his show that is the way he acts, he is a very aggressive person. I know you agree with him, but Lynne, others don't, and there is no way you will convince me that what i saw in that video is acceptable. Brad thinks he is too good, and the sad thing is that people on soapboxes usually fall hard. |
#40
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Hey, I've been a good girl and stayed out of this one!! Mr Nino is taking up more of my time. Bayley is being such a good girl with him...man though that cat can scream like a Bobcat, although he only did that once today!! We're making progress here!!
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#41
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Ok possibly I should NOT post until I am done reading the thread, but I could not resist... Should he not be training the people to train their own dogs? He is yelling enough he doesn't want to hear it at the start, to someone that is presumably talking about THEIR dog, they should not be told to be quiet. He should then instruct the different ways the owner can correct the dog, he has control of that dog. Also he is very tense and angry, he could have just created issues with that dog. I am open to listening and learning from him, but when we talk about situations like this that happen all too often, I listen to them too, I am not going to brush off these dozen different things, and say hey! he is the best dog trainer.. no way would I ever take an opportunity to have a class with him. Don't know who he thinks he is treating the owners that way, and hitting a dog, and yanking it around like that, then throwing it to the owner and walking away, that is very poor treatment of a dog, that is NOT the way to deal with it at all, scare the dog, jeepers creepers! |
#42
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Lynne B - please hang out with other trainers and just observe their methods. You will see the difference and I think you will know then why so many of us are not Brad fans. Listen, I am an old school kinda gal - I learnt more and better techniques from others whether trainers or even through ordinary people - LP being one of them since she is a positive guru and convinced me of a few things. I grew and continue to grow.
Brad ain't da man - he just isn't... |
#43
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LynneB, i'm aware you are a pro Brad person and that's fine, i'm aware you are a member of his web site, that is also fine. Not everyone likes him and they too are entitled to their opinion. You state that you are just making sure we know the truth. I hate to correct you, but no your not. You are stating your opinion of the truth. The only way any of us will see your version of the truth is to see the original version of the video. As this can't supposedly be produced, then this is becoming a he said, she said story. Brad is quite obviously irritated, and he does storm off, you see him lift the dog off the ground, and i have no doubt he smacked the dog. To me it doesn't matter what happened before, durring or after this incident. HE SMACKED THE DOG. This is not an acceptable training method in my books.
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#44
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So help me god, IF that moron ever touched my dogs in that way, I would pound the living snot out of him. He should be charged with animal abuse. @sshole....
__________________
The more I get to know people, the more I love my dog... There ain't no cure for stupid ...... but we should make sure we laugh and point it out to everyone else |
#45
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Lynne if the best way to deal with a dog that is lunging is to pull them back so hard their feet lift up then I am in trouble. I have a dog with dog aggression, and she is WAY stronger than me. I have been able to get tons of improvement with positive training methods. I need to stop her without force. I really feel Brads actions are not justidied I don't care what the dog was doing. If the dog refused to sit and hung up his own front paws.. ( that sounds a little wierd to me...) then there is another way to make it work, what he was doing obviously did not work. That was someone elses dog, not his, that is a big difference. He should have had that dog taken away from the group for a minute walk so they both could chill out. I really hate the way he says about the leash and gives back the dog, and the way the owner is acting she looks scared and shocked. Him using that energy, and building the dogs energy will cause all the dogs in that group because they are so close to get worked up, it is asking for trouble! Training should be by the owners, a bonding experience that is positive for everyone. This is not the first thing Lynne, Sorry, there have been many, and some people are going to disagree..
I do not think the video is doctored that much. I agree there is repeat, and that it is a few seconds of a couple different situations lumped together, but by the amature quality I don't think sound and everything else has been changed to the point you say it is. I am sure Brad will get all in a tizzy about it, that is the way he is. He has already shown people they should not piss him off, only speak when spoken to attitude.. If he came out with an explenation of the situation in a positive way, and admit to over reacting, then I would respect him. But going all crazy and trying to sue people or whatever, just makes me think even worse of him. I can get that he is human and he should just admit that maybe he should have handled the situation differently, the video does not accuratly represent what happened and give his side, all would be cool, but he is going to call more attention to it and have people think worse of him reacting the way he is. Ok, I am done now! i read the whole thing!! This one really bothers me..... |
#46
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IMHO - knowing that people with dogs with behavioural issues often watch his show and attend his seminars, the first thing out of his mouth on that second day should have been the question "Is there anyone here who has a dog aggressive dog?"
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Sandi |
#47
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I like the way our last trainer handled the DA dogs in the class. Bayley tends to be dog aggressive on leash and in new situations. We stayed away from the other dogs, especially one who was more reactive than Bayley. As classes went along, we moved closer and closer till we could sit on the same side of the room and still have our dog's pay attention to us. So nice on graduation, Bayley and Dovey did a down/stay off leash beside each other.
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#48
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I have spent lots of my hard earned dollars to attend seminars on specific topics like dog aggression with top notch trainers, and I don't mean the ones on TV and not one has ever behaved this way for one, for two never in my days has one suggested I lift a dog up. To each his own but I am so thankful for the mentors I have had, the experiences I have had and the dogs that have helped me learn. I am sure if I treated them that way and with that energy I wouldn't be able to help dogs the way I do.
There are so many wonderful training techniques available to us and so many knowledgeable trainers who have spent lifetimes perfecting, studying and are still learning, it's important to know that there is no cookie cutter way to train, but being aggressive or abusive is just not proper and never has been, as well won't gain you or your dog anything. There isn't a single dog that is the same and you can't train them all like little robots. A man this upset and telling a client that she's irritating him is not a professional. Hissy fits are for kids and I worry what damage has been to dogs he's had his hands on. Love what trainers you will but be very careful with that love and admiration, because it does affect another life.
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ www.nopuppymillscanada.ca |
#49
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I understand that not everyone agrees with or likes Brad, or his methods. That's ok, I'm not here to tell you to change your mind. I was trying to put a different perspective on the video, as it has been altered and it's not fair to flame someone without knowing the facts (or at least the facts that I am aware of). I freely admit that I wasn't there, I don't know what happened at the rest of the seminar, all I know is the feedback that we got on Brad's website, and it was all positive. Brad has a "strong personality" , and not everyone responds well to that. I can only share what my experiences have been, and you can take that for what it is, agree with it or not, and move on. I'm a pretty practical person, and I'm fine with other people disagreeing or even disliking me. My husband and I have a lot of respect for Brad, we enjoyed his classes, and he's a friend, as such we don't like seeing his name dragged through the mud, and we don't like it when people make assumptions on what his training methods actually are, as there are hugely wrong assumptions out there. At the same time, I know that some of you feel very strongly that as a trainer, he shouldn't do some of the things he does. As for myself, I don't agree with what other types of trainers recommend either. Maybe Brad talked to that owner afterwards, maybe he addressed the frustration, who knows, it's only a 30 second video. And guess what, some trainers make mistakes too, that's life. The issue is that we don't know what happened afterwards, or beforehand, or what they were even discussing to begin with.
If anyone knows of any good seminars coming up in Calgary, let me know, I'd love to see other trainers in action, I think you know that BenMax, so thanks for bringing it up. Hehe and I know some of you think that I'm wearing rose colored glasses, or putting Brad on a pedestal, and it does make me laugh a little. But if that was the case, I'd be saying that all other training methods are bad and Brad's are the only way to go, and listen to him blindly agreeing with everything he says. That's very far from the truth. I give him a hard time right back with my sarcastic humor, and I ask a lot of questions of him before I make any decisions on what my opinion is. I sometimes give out advice on his site as a moderator, and he agrees sometimes, but not always. I think some of Brad's methods line up very well with some aspects of PRT, but not all obviously. And like someone else stated, all dogs are different and have different personalities, so you have to adjust your training methods accordingly, even Brad. PS - Pattymac, I'm glad to hear you're having success with Bayley, sometimes there's nothing better than the feeling of overcoming a hurdle with your dog, so I'm happy you have found something that works for both of you. |
#50
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I can understand you defending a friend Lynne B - it is understandable.
If he were my friend (and that is a big 'IF') I would advise him to cool his jets and adjust that attitude of his. He will loose his footing soon as everyone is watching since he is now a celebraty of sorts. The rise is fast and furious, but the fall is hard and unforgiving. |
#51
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Alrighty, so this was brought to my attention from one of the other moderators on Brad's site, it was posted by the lady that Brad yelled at. So I was wrong on one of my points, as she said that her dog was also trying to jump Brad, so that must have been in part of the video that was cut out. Anyway, this is also posted on Brad's site if anyone wants to search for it, and this is what her opinion of the whole thing was, and you can draw whatever conclusions you want from it. I have also seen her make comments on some of the episodes on the show on Brad's blog on Slice.
"I'm the lady from video #6 from Toronto Seminar in Oct., where Brad told me to stop talking because I was annoying him, and my dog whom you all think he hit.Well, let me tell you all, that it was a very quick swift movement by his nose, you cannot see it since it was obscured but you all jumped to conclusion that Brad hit him (Rex).Had you been there you would have seen Rex trying to jump Brad, trust me he hasn't tried that ever since and yes I have had to use it a couple of times since. Either Brad was rude or not I was there for my dogs, not for my ego. All I want to say is whatever works for your dog either Brad's or someone else's methods, as long as you find something that works.I saw 3 differnt trainers before Brad, all worked on treats,and none worked with my dogs, spent plenty of money on the way.I also have several physical problems that at times hinder me to do certain things, but Brad's training methods have made it easier on me physically. Yes I put a lot of work into it, but at times I physically can't but I don't give up. Just remember if you want to see the real Brad, go to his seminar and don't judge him for his TV PERSONA. If your ego is easily hurt, STAY AWAY. IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG, GO!! STOP INSULTING EACH OTHER. BE RESPECTFUL. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND SO ARE OUR DOGS. maria salutari Mtl. Qc. Tuesday, 30 December 2008 21:57 PM EST" |
#52
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Lynne B - I speak for myself. Anything short of this man being attacked does not merit a smack, wack, brushing the dog's fur the other way or anything else that does ANYTHING in front of the face of that dog is unwarranted.
Brad is very lucky to have followers that are willing to stand by him. This explanation made by the woman does not change anything for me. In my opinion, Brad being humped.............never mind I will not comment. |
#53
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Sorry but I've seen him smack dogs in the face on his show too, I'm not against physical interruption in training but this guy is not my cup of tea...
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#54
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Just a sad commentary that abusing our animals is an acceptable method of training. While the whack on the nose is dismissed, the choking out the dog isn't even commented on.
Sorry, but if you plan on lifting my dog off of his feet by his collar - he had better have flesh in his mouth. Because that is the only thing that warrants such a correction.
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Sandi |
#55
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Here's another training video, please watch it with the sound off.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=32083761264 I have a friend who spent her money on one of brads seminars and she was NOT impressed therefore I don't need to waste my money and based on what I have seen of him on TV etc, there is absolutely nothing I would learn from him.
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ www.nopuppymillscanada.ca |
#56
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Hehehe BenMax, I think she meant her dog jumped up at Brad (not sure if it was aggressively or not), not humped....sorry you just made me giggle out loud picturing that!
Also, I was asking around to see what they were arguing about to begin with, because I couldn't remember, and another person (who was there) thinks it was because she kept on saying that she couldn't do some of the training, referring to her physical limitations, she kept on saying "But I can't" and Brad was stopping her and being abrupt telling her that she was making excuses, or something along those lines. I realize that it doesn't change anything for you guys, that's alright, but in case it helps anyone else that's reading to understand more about what happened, it's there....from what I've seen of Maria's comments in other forums, she's done really well and had a lot of success in training her dog, and has worked very hard at it. |
#57
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Lynne_B, perhaps you are okay with treating a dog like that, but I'm not, and I seriously doubt anyone here is going to come around to your way of thinking.
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There are only two rules at my house: House rule #1. Cats rule. House rule #2. See rule #1. http://nuriaandthegang.shutterfly.com/ |
#58
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And, so why did you want people to watch that with the sound off? It's kinda key to the video to have someone explain what they're doing. Rudy is one of the coolest little dogs I've ever met, and man is he ever smart! One of the first classes we went to, Brad was demonstrating some of the training exercises with Rudy, and at that point all that was going through my head was, wow, I hope my dog can be that well trained when I'm done.
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#59
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As for coming around to my way of thinking, I'm not asking you to. All I'm doing is giving you all the facts as I know them, and you can make your own decision. I'm a big girl, I can take it . As for "my way of thinking"....There are a lot of training aspects that I don't agree with either. I don't agree with using prong, shock, or spray collars. I don't agree with shock fencing for perimeter work, I don't agree with using treats to train dogs in obediance as I think that a lot of people out there don't know how to use them correctly, and end up doing more harm than good. I don't think that every dog will need a physical correction, I do believe in pack mentality and the presence of dominance (or submission), and the concept of being alpha. I think that it's important to learn as much as you can so you can make an informed decision, whatever that decision is. But I will say that my dog does get treats, just not for doing something in training. I also think treats can work well for teaching tracking, or bird dogs. There are lots of different ideas and options for training out there, and all have their benefits and pitfalls. I think praise is hugely important in training, as well as building the bond with your dog. I think that all dogs have different needs that fall into the categories of social, physical, mental stimulation, and that having fun is important. So that is "my way of thinking" and you can choose to agree in part or disagree, I just hope you have as good of a relationship with your furry buddy as I do! Last edited by Lynne_B; July 16th, 2009 at 02:54 PM. Reason: forgot to add last part |
#60
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I guess we didn't see the same video. I saw a man pull a dog up by the leash, from the down position, with a bit more enthusiasm than it warranted.
I think this can go around and around and nobody will change their opinions, at least I know I won't.
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There are only two rules at my house: House rule #1. Cats rule. House rule #2. See rule #1. http://nuriaandthegang.shutterfly.com/ |
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