Cesar Milan vs Brad Pattison

[pattymac]

He's in Victoria, just google Ben Kersen. I did a search on him and didn't find anything negative about him. I'd love to go out there but it's not an option for me right now...just a bit far away for now

[MommaKat]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

His website claims that his school is the only government accredited program in Canada. That's pretty sweet. His prices are not to shabby either. I hope to be one of his students in the future. I have met a few former students of his and they only said good things about the program. From what it sounds like, he is a really good trainer of people and dogs.

I like the picture of him (Ben Kersen) holding the bunny and cat and surrounded by calm dogs and happy owners, I also liked his vids on youtube.

Picture : http://www.wonderdogs.bc.ca/popups/oddly.html

Anyways, I expressed my views on both shows in this thread already, and many have mentioned similar stuff to what I have said so I won't ramble on again . I will say though (going a little off topic, sorry )that there have been posts in this thread from folks talking about having Brad as a trainer or attending one of his seminars and not being happy with the service he provided and sometimes feeling like he actually abused and mistreated the owners dogs. Even though, I am NOT in any way,shape or form a Brad fan, I find myself getting less and less sympathetic for these folks. There has got to be a point , unless you feel you were purposely misled on the type of training methods or tools to be used, that it's buyer beware . I find it very hard to believe that anyone who did proper and through research on Brad showed up at his training sessions and was still surprised.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything ,I know mistakes can be made , especially for first time dog owners (I can really relate ) but when people don't research a dog trainer, like anything else, it's the dog that suffers.

Here are some great articles about what to ask and look for in a trainer :

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/choose_trainer.aspx
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/tips.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article....2+2085&aid=800

Sorry for the rant .

[BenMax]

MommaKat - very, very good points.

[Blackdog22]

I agree 100% MommaKat.
Too many people assume because someone is well known, they will automatically be the perfect choice for their dog.

As a rule, I will not hand my dogs leash over to ANYONE unless I can fully trust them in all situations. That includes certified trainers whom are reputable. I'm responsible for any situation my dog encounters (be it directly or indirectly) and I will not sabatoge our relashonship because someone had an "off day".



Just personal opinion I guess.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by MommaKat

I like the picture of him (Ben Kersen) holding the bunny and cat and surrounded by calm dogs and happy owners, I also liked his vids on youtube.

Picture : http://www.wonderdogs.bc.ca/popups/oddly.html

Anyways, I expressed my views on both shows in this thread already, and many have mentioned similar stuff to what I have said so I won't ramble on again . I will say though (going a little off topic, sorry )that there have been posts in this thread from folks talking about having Brad as a trainer or attending one of his seminars and not being happy with the service he provided and sometimes feeling like he actually abused and mistreated the owners dogs. Even though, I am NOT in any way,shape or form a Brad fan, I find myself getting less and less sympathetic for these folks. There has got to be a point , unless you feel you were purposely misled on the type of training methods or tools to be used, that it's buyer beware . I find it very hard to believe that anyone who did proper and through research on Brad showed up at his training sessions and was still surprised.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything ,I know mistakes can be made , especially for first time dog owners (I can really relate ) but when people don't research a dog trainer, like anything else, it's the dog that suffers.

Here are some great articles about what to ask and look for in a trainer :

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/choose_trainer.aspx
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/tips.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article....2+2085&aid=800

Sorry for the rant .

AMEN!!!

[ZiggysWife]

BenMax, no I didn't take away anything good from the session. I don't remember anything good about it. There may well have been some good points, some people may have taken away some useful information, I'm not saying that there wasn't any, there could have been but I was so upset over the near strangulation of my dog and the knife incident, that I can't think of anything good. And for those two reasons alone, I don't think Brad Pattison should be on the air, training dogs or giving advice to anyone.

I admit, I didn't know much about him before we met him. I had only seen two episodes, thought he was kind of a jerk to the people but never thought he'd be so physically abusive to the dogs. We were convinced to go by some friends of ours who apparently thought the world of him but had no idea of his abusive tendencies to the dogs. If I had known that, I never, ever would have put them in his hands. I honestly thought he would give us some confidence building exercises for our feral puppy because everything frightened her. That's why I feel the need to let other people know. So that they're well informed and they don't have to go through the same thing. I had nightmares for months. I don't care how good Brad Pattison or his fans say he is, you don't physically abuse a dog to train it. We fortunately met a wonderful trainer who knows how to handle dogs properly, who was gentle and kind and intelligent and she helped our dog and today, she is the most beautiful, amazing dog ever. She is loved very much and we can't imagine the world without her.

And for the record, Brad Pattison told us she would be so savage and so out of control that she would have to be euthanized by the time she was 11 months old. Nothing could be farther from the truth from what she is today. What kind of a trainer speaks like that? Not a good one. I have a lot to say on the topic but I'm not going to say it here. If you would like to know what happened and why I am so offended by what Brad Pattison did, please send me a private message and I will tell you the full story.

[ZiggysWife]

Bailey, first, how dare you tell me where I can post my opinion on Brad Pattison. I can voice my opinion on that anywhere I want.

Secondly, I am not enabling my dogs aggressive behaviours at all since they were never aggressive to begin with. Why don't you shut your mouth before you say something about dogs you've never met, never encountered or know anything about.

Thirdly, you don't know ANYTHING. Full story my ass! I don't know who the hell you think you are or what you think you've heard but just because you've read the ramblings of some of Brad's groupies on his fan page, doesn't give you the right to say you know anything about what happened or what my dogs went through. You don't anything about them, their history, their progress, NOTHING. So you don't know the FULL story.

You're a typical Brad groupie and I don't have the time to come on here and debate his outstanding ethics. Any trainer who believes in strangulation as a method of training is just an abusive jerk hiding behind a profession. I won't tolerate it. Not from him and not from you. I have better things to do then defend myself or my dogs to you. I feel sorry for you.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by ZiggysWife

Bailey, first, how dare you tell me where I can post my opinion on Brad Pattison. I can voice my opinion on that anywhere I want.

Secondly, I am not enabling my dogs aggressive behaviours at all since they were never aggressive to begin with. Why don't you shut your mouth before you say something about dogs you've never met, never encountered or know anything about.

Thirdly, you don't know ANYTHING. Full story my ass! I don't know who the hell you think you are or what you think you've heard but just because you've read the ramblings of some of Brad's groupies on his fan page, doesn't give you the right to say you know anything about what happened or what my dogs went through. You don't anything about them, their history, their progress, NOTHING. So you don't know the FULL story.

You're a typical Brad groupie and I don't have the time to come on here and debate his outstanding ethics. Any trainer who believes in strangulation as a method of training is just an abusive jerk hiding behind a profession. I won't tolerate it. Not from him and not from you. I have better things to do then defend myself or my dogs to you. I feel sorry for you.

Haha, Wow. I'm feeling a lot of defensiveness and anger from you ZiggysWife, and I'm sorry if you feel you need defend yourself to me. I in no way care what you think of Brad, or what anyone else thinks of him, because *I* don't even care about him. I learned a lot from the man, many training methods that I don't agree with and many that I do. I'm not sure if that makes me a GROUPIE, but if your interpretation of someone that has been able to learn something from Brad Pattison means that they are his 'groupie' then so be it.

In your situation, I was told the other side - which gave me your perspective on things, and Brads. And I just don't see why a professional trainer, who owes you nothing, would tell you that you have a potentially aggressive dog if you DID NOT? That just does not make any sense to me, and therefore I would believe the trainer over the word of the emotionally invested owner. Sorry if that offends you.

Not to mention that I don't understand why ANYONE would get a second dog if they were not able to control the first dog - an older and very dominant animal who had already bitten it's owner.

But you are totally right, ZiggysWife. I have not met your dogs. I would expect any clients of mine to do their research into my training methods before coming to one of my classes. If they didn't, and did not like what they saw, then I would also expect them to leave. It seems like you're more on a tyrade than anything; so I just feel sorry for Brad Pattison. It sucks that people don't do enough research before trusting their dog with someone, and then turn into serious haters, avoiding looking at the bigger picture - like the fact that Brad informed you that you need to step it up for your dogs BEFORE they developed serious behavioral aggression from too much coddling.
I respect the fact that you don't like Brad, ZW, that's not an issue.

Feel sorry for me? What about your own dogs. Find a trainer that you actually like, instead of focusing so much energy on hating the one you don't. Just a thought.

[luckypenny]

This bickering back and forth only serves to distract readers from the gist of the thread...not to mention lack of respect for the op, members and guests alike who would, I'm sure, prefer to learn the difference between these two reality show hosts methods.

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Find a trainer that you actually like, instead of focusing so much energy on hating the one you don't. Just a thought.

Seems to me she already did and is quite satisfied with her choice. We all live and learn. How 'bout we just leave it at that before this thread gets closed preventing other members from having the chance to voice their valuable opinions?

[JennieV]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

This bickering back and forth only serves to distract readers from the gist of the thread...not to mention lack of respect for the op, members and guests alike who would, I'm sure, prefer to learn the difference between these two reality show hosts methods.



Seems to me she already did and is quite satisfied with her choice. We all live and learn. How 'bout we just leave it at that before this thread gets closed preventing other members from having the chance to voice their valuable opinions?

I second that!

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

This bickering back and forth only serves to distract readers from the gist of the thread...not to mention lack of respect for the op, members and guests alike who would, I'm sure, prefer to learn the difference between these two reality show hosts methods.



Seems to me she already did and is quite satisfied with her choice. We all live and learn. How 'bout we just leave it at that before this thread gets closed preventing other members from having the chance to voice their valuable opinions?

Couldn't agree more.

LuckyPenny, I personally don't appreciate having judgement calls made about me or my own training methods or my character as a person, espeially when this particular OP knows nothing about me aside from the fact that I know Brad; which is why I felt the need to say what I have - and always will if I feel myself or anyone else is being unduly judged. It's not for lack of respect of this thread or the other commenters. Just wanted to add that.

[aslan]

OMG, would you just drop it now. This thread isn't about you or the OP you've both had your say, let it go now.

[Bailey_]

Aslan, you're a bit late. It's been dropped.

Did anyone see the Mom Show yesterday? Ceaser Milan was on. I didn't realize he did Canadian interviews!

[Stewart]

Never seen the other guy over here........ But Ceaser gets my vote as he is quite calm in getting humans to empower themselves over animals in thier care for the best for both lives, Animal and owner.We had a dog obediance trainer over here years back on T.V.who was like a Sergent Major.Ceaser is so much more in touch with life.

[momto2]

Originally Posted by les

I way prefer Cesar over Brad. Although they both get results and I like what both are doing, I can't stand the yelling and screaming Brad does ... personally, I just find it annoying.

Cesar is not so much a dog trainer either - I mean he doesn't teach sit, down, come ... he does teach how to be the pack leader which is probably most important =) Alright ... Cesar is my idol

Totally have to agree with you on this one.....he's my idol too! I use a lot of his tips and tricks with our dogs and it's turning out great

[Margo Kram]

It seems to me that both Brad and Cesar employ variants on the "traditional' methods of training ie. dominance, etc. I wish there was a good show on TV where someone used more "modern" methods especially on dogs with severe behavioual problems. I always read about how the modern school disses the traditiional school when it comes to training but I've not seen any evidence of how successful a purely modern method works with out of control dogs. I'm not saying clicker training can't stop or prevent a dog fight, but I just haven't seen it and it would be good to have a show on TV that presented that side of things.

[Rottielover]

Honestly when it comes to dog fights and aggression, I do not think clicker training would be useful, as the dogs tone out everything, sound wise.
Most important when it comes to those issues is control, and reading the dogs body language before it escalates to anything.
Personally you have to find the methods that will work with your dog, different behaviors will require different methods.
Point is to know your dog. I have used the exercise, discipline, affection with Harley, in between that and knowing what stresses him out, he is finally becoming the dog I need him to be. As seen at the st patty's parade.
For Harley what really works is working, he needs to work to control his mind.

[Promethean]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

His website claims that his school is the only government accredited program in Canada. That's pretty sweet. His prices are not to shabby either. I hope to be one of his students in the future. I have met a few former students of his and they only said good things about the program. From what it sounds like, he is a really good trainer of people and dogs.

Save your money, buy some DVDs from ww.tawzerdogvideos.com/ you'll be much better off with accurate up to date information than the fabrications that you're likely to hear in his seminars/show.

Margo Kram, unfortunately there will never be a show on modern, methods (or at least not a national one) because modern methods that employ our best understanding of cognitive science, ethology, learning theory are rather boring. People want conflict and drama on TV. It doesn't matter if they get it from a balding abrasive know-nothing who hangs dogs and hits them as long as it is exciting to watch.

The clicker can't STOP a fight, but it can prevent one if you trained the dog properly.

[Blackdog22]

Seminars are fantastic!
I'm the type of person who wants to go to EVERYONES seminar. I believe one can learn more from others then any dvd can teach. I intend on going to as many seminars as possible in a wide range of topics. I do not know the man personally and I have never been in his program....but I have met others who have. As a foundation base in training, I think you have to figure that one out yourself and yeah, learning 'all you know' from the man may not be wise. But as far as a piece of paper goes (to become a 'certified' trainer) I think his program would be a great start. Canada really has limited options when it comes to 'training schools'......out of all of them I have looked into so far, I would go to his program above the others. Because we have such limited selection in training schools, it's very easy to get into contact with former students and for me, it's easy to tell who had what kind of training. For me it is an absolute must that any program I partake in has a program dedicated to the training of sport dogs. Not many schools offer this, but Ben Kersen apparently does. My ultimate dream school would be the tom rose training academy......but that's just a dream, not a realistic goal. Many factors go into choosing schools. Nobody can really generalize 'which school is better' as each person has individual needs.

All that being said, I will not be going to school for sometime.......I have far too much to learn. I'll start thinking about become a certified trainer in 20-30 years, lol.

[Promethean]

His piece of paper is worthless. Basically anyone can hand out a "certification"; if you own a printer save yourself the money. I've never met Pattison either, but I've heard what he and his 'certified" trainers say and so much of it is blatantly and demonstrably wrong. For the same price you can enroll in a few college courses in animal behavior and psychology, attend a few seminars and still have money left over to buy some really good instructive books and DVDs. You should also be aware that neither Pattison nor any of his cohorts have ever achieved anything in the obedience field or in any dog sport, AFAIK.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Promethean

Margo Kram, unfortunately there will never be a show on modern, methods (or at least not a national one) because modern methods that employ are best understanding of cognitive science, ethology, learning theory are rather boring. People want conflict and drama on TV. It doesn't matter if they get it from a balding abrasive know-nothing who hangs dogs and hits them as long as it is exciting to watch.

The clicker can't STOP a fight, but it can prevent one if you trained the dog properly.

Thank you for this simply put, yet accurate post Promethean .

I didn't notice an intro thread so I'd like to say...welcome to pets.ca .

[Bailey_]

In that case, I'm curious how a clicker trainer would approach an aggressive dog that had not previously been trained. I can understand that it can prevent a dog fight if trained properly, but what about the dogs that have been introduced to clicker in their later years, after a certain behavior is already established?

Also, what is everyone's thoughts on the clicker causing a dog to be neurotic? A client of mine has her dog in agility at the moment - the class is clicker based, and it's causing her dog to freak out during every lesson. She seems to hate the clicker, barks at it - and gets very anxious and loses focus on her owner when the dog hears the clicker from across the room. This is a normally very docile dog (2 years) and during these classes has bit her owner twice. I don't think the agility trainer has given her any suggestions, so I just told her to see if she could bring a toy to class for the positive reinforcement instead of using the clicker/treat. I'm not a clicker trainer, so I don't know if this is normal?

[Promethean]

A clicker won't stop a fight because a clicker is not an interrupt signal. Anyone trying to use a clicker to stop a fight, knows nothing about clicker training.

A clicker trainer would never even let the fight occur in the first place because they know when trying to establish new behavior patterns, it is best if the subject doesn't get to practiced the old undesirable behaviors; they understand the importance of environmental control when dealing with such a situation. A clicker trainer would also know about stimulus thresholds, so again they wouldn't let their dog get close enough to start a fight.

Cross training a dog from traditional methods to clicker is fairly easy, though there can be some problems because pack/alpha methods tend to produce dogs that do nothing/shut down when they are uncertain. Using a clicker to reward for cut off signals, or any pro social behavior as well as othe incompatible behaviors has proven successful. Emma Parson's Click to Calm gives an excellent overview of what this entails.

[pattymac]

I got my Ben Kersen dvd's watched a bit..too busy these days to sit and just watch. Also got Brenda Aloff's new book, Get Connected with Your Dog, comes with a dvd. Now her I like! So that will come before Ben Kersen. I figure the more I know about what's out there, then the more knowledgeable I'll be.

Promethean, my Click Your Way to Rally O, has that suggestion to practice w/o your dog. I think while she's running around in the dog park, I'll practice my heeling walk..maybe I'll look a bit silly, but then there aren't usually many people there anyway

[happycats]

I like Stanley Coren as well, he's great with dogs.
http://www.stanleycoren.com/

[jakhi]

Originally Posted by Promethean

Margo Kram, unfortunately there will never be a show on modern, methods (or at least not a national one) because modern methods that employ our best understanding of cognitive science, ethology, learning theory are rather boring.

Actually there is such a show. It's called 'It's Me or The Dog', and I quite liked it. You can search it and watch a few online. Unfortunately it seems to be a very small program right now, it doesn't air where I live, but it was really good. I can't remember the trainers name but she did use clickers and was british. There's an american version as well as a british one if I remember right.

[Promethean]

Originally Posted by jakhi

Actually there is such a show. It's called 'It's Me or The Dog', and I quite liked it. You can search it and watch a few online. Unfortunately it seems to be a very small program right now, it doesn't air where I live, but it was really good. I can't remember the trainers name but she did use clickers and was british. There's an american version as well as a british one if I remember right.

It's Victoria Stillwell. Unfortunately for every educated trainer like Victoria or Stanley Coren there are dozens of Pattisons, Millan's, Martin (Dog Borstal) and Sullivans telling people you need harsh, punitive methods to ensure dominance over your dog.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Promethean

It's Victoria Stillwell. Unfortunately for every educated trainer like Victoria or Stanley Coren there are dozens of Pattisons, Millan's, Martin (Dog Borstal) and Sullivans telling people you need harsh, punitive methods to ensure dominance over your dog.

How would you describe 'harsh'?

Please advise.

[MommaKat]

Since this thread got bumped again I thought I would link this video I found http://videocalgary.citytv.com/ (it's not a direct link, just type "Brad" in the video search to the right and click on his video below) .

Many people on this forum have pointed out that the way someone acts on a show may not be who they are in real life. What I like about this interview is you get a clearer picture of what he's about. Without a family for him to holler at you get to see him talk about his methods and how he views dogs in a family.

Even in a one on one setting I found him to be really negative . In this interview, he is telling some scary story about a little girl being bitten by a dog for a sandwich and that's why you shouldn't "treat train" your dog or give it table scraps . These kind of stories in BP interviews are not uncommon. I think Brad is very good at reading people and knowing what their fears are (like doggie biting someone,humanizing doggie etc) and I think he plays on those fears a little bit to "help" them see his line of thinking. I also didn't love that he leash popped the puppy when it was laying quietly by that lady, or that he seems to recommend using an ear pinch to get a puppy to stop chewing instead of redirecting them to a toy. Apparently using toys instead is negotiating?

Anyways, that's my on this interview and Brad, I would love to hear other opinions .

[Lynne_B]

I understand that to someone this video can look like it's negative. However, I'm more of the opinion that it's informative. Think of it this way. Everyone out there who treat trains are not going to have aggressive dogs that constantly go after food. Brad knows that. But, some will if the circumstances are right. So, since Brad is in the public eye, and people want to follow his methods, he's not going to say, "you shouldn't treat train, it can cause these problems, but not in all dogs". People will hear that and not take it seriously. If he takes the stance that you should absolutely never treat train because of these reasons, people take that more seriously. He has seen it happen before, and knowing that he will never recommend treats in training.

Picture this scenario...you're at the dog park, there's a kid there that has something in his hand, icecream cone, dog treat, cracker, whatever. Dog or puppy comes up, goes to snatch it out of the kids hand, and a tooth accidentally scratches the kids hand, maybe he gets knocked over and starts crying. Mom or Dad freaks out, reports your dog as having bit their child, and sues you. Not a great scenario, but it happens. Maybe they don't sue you, but then you have to pay the added fee for a license for a "dangerous dog" and have him wear a muzzle from now on out in the public. Still no fun.

As for the ear pinch, I think that's a great exercise to do with a puppy, along with tugging on the ears, the fur, etc. This teaches your dog bite inhibition, and is especially valuable if your dog is going to be around kids that haven't learned how to be gentle yet. I have been at the offleash park a lot where someone brings their kids, and they're running around playing with the dogs, and some kid grabbed a handful of my dogs fur, and he didn't react at all, so very very valuable.