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Old January 26th, 2012, 07:13 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Animal companions & why “buying” them is brutal ~ graphic images

I know many members who are heavily into rescue are no longer here, but I thought this blog was very important and hopefully will change the mind of at least one person thinking of buying a dog or cat:


http://theveganomaly.com/2012/01/25/...ers-manifesto/

Animal companions & why “buying” them is brutal: an adopters’ manifesto

25
JAN
Anna is one of my dearest friends, and she is a hero to animals everywhere. We do lots of things when we’re together. Mostly we eat and then talk about what we just ate. But recently, we wrote this piece on an issue very close to our hearts: companion animals.

What do you call it when someone painlessly ends the life of another who is suffering from an incurable condition (often at the patient’s own request)? Unfortunately, this isn’t the set up to some hilarious joke. What you get, according to the trusty Oxford Dictionary, is euthanasia.

The people who wrote the Oxford Dictionary are probably pretty smart, and they seem to think that euthanasia is killing someone for his or her own good, because death has become a better option than incurable suffering. But we find ourselves a wee bit confused: why do we describe shelters as “euthanizing” healthy animals? That doesn’t sound like euthanasia to us or to the Oxford Dictionary for that matter. That sounds more like killing: to deprive of life or vitality; to put to death; to cause the death of (Oxford, FTW!).

Ever the stalwarts of accurate discussions, we use the word “kill” when we discuss this issue, because that is what we are doing to companion animals. And we hope this doesn’t make you uncomfortable. We’ll leave it to you to speculate as to why the euthanasia euphemism has become so commonplace (but it likely has something to do with the uncontrollable guilt that would come with acknowledging that we kill perfectly healthy animals en masse, despite as a culture claiming to value them).

According to the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies, in 2008:

54% of the cats taken in by shelters were killed.
19% of the dogs taken in by shelters were killed.
But let’s get one thing straight right off the bat: this is not the fault of shelters. By and large, shelters are running on tight budgets, staffed by generous and compassionate volunteers, and doing largely thankless (and emotionally depleting) work that remains invisible to most of us (which is just fine for most people).

Shelters all too often find themselves in a nightmarish predicament of providing shelter for some animals while taking the lives of some other animals, to make room for still other animals. Is there really such a shortage of space for animals, you ask? Consider this: in Toronto alone there are between 100,000 and 300,000 homeless cats, many of whom were dumped on the streets by guardians who lost interest in caring for them. Extrapolate that number out, and you can see that the number of animals in need of homes is so enormous that purposely bringing more animals into existence just to make a buck is, quite literally, insane. Oxford-dictionary-style insane.

If aliens were to come to earth (and decide not to obliterate/colonize us) they’d have some serious questions that we may not have decent answers for. After no doubt expressing disgust at the way we harm and kill animals for food even though we don’t have to, they’d probably say (telepathically of course): “why create more life when there are already so many who need the love and companionship of a human family?” And despite our own demonstrable capacity for intelligence and empathy, most people would seem like absolute fools when we can’t even answer. We’d completely embarrass ourselves in front of the aliens, who would have it confirmed in an instant that not only are we not the smartest beings in the universe, we’re not the most empathetic either.



And before you say, “Well I’m not a breeder, so I’m off the hook!” we’ve got news for you, courtesy of every Economics 101 class that’s ever happened, ever: if you demand it, the market will provide it. That means that if you think it’s acceptable to purchase animals from pet stores or private breeders, some idiot out there will supply your demand. And the opposite is also true. Take a look at Albuquerque, New Mexico, which banned the sale of cats and dogs in 2006. Animal adoptions have increased by 23 per cent, while the rate of animals killed at shelters has decreased by 35 percent.

Let’s break down some of the problems with our system of creating animals, abandoning them in shelters or on the streets, killing them, and then creating more new animals:

Animals aren’t here for us. This is axiomatic. While we mutually enjoy life with companion animals, their actual existence has nothing to do with us.
If we acknowledge that animals don’t exist for us, then we also must acknowledge that it is not our right to choose when they die.
If we acknowledge that because animals don’t exist for us and therefore we shouldn’t have control over when they die, we must also acknowledge that a system that decides how one in every two cats dies, and how one in every five dogs dies, is a flawed system in dire need of a committed, emergency overhaul.
It also illuminates an inconvenient, but unavoidable reality: your superficial want for a Labradoodle is grossly outweighed by the right to live that all animals have. Frankly, it’s just too damn bad for you.

Oh, and it’s also too damn bad for the “responsible breeder” (hereby dubbed the ‘responsibreeder’). Why aren’t we more empathetic to the well-intentioned responsibreeder, you ask? Truth bomb: The responsibreeder is fictitious. Non-existent. Think Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or that sister you invented to get out of office work parties. There is no such thing as a responsibreeder, as the very definition of “responsible” means “having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, part of one’s job or role”. If we consider notions of responsibility on a community level (as we ought to), then the only responsible breeder is a breeder who is not breeding.

OK, so you’ve read this far. And you may even be in a position of wanting to bring home a new furry family member. Before heading out to meet Sandy, who owns the certified-accredited-organic-fair-trade-gluten-free-pedigreed Sunny Oakridge Autumn Harvest Labralove Kennel, we dare you to Google your local animal shelter or humane society and check out all the wonderful individuals who are literally waiting for their second chance.

If even after looking into the eyes of an animal who may be sentenced to an unnecessary death (read: killed), you choose to purchase an animal from Sandy, the charismatic responsibreeder (who assures you she’s doing it for the love of dogs), there’s not much we can do. But one thing we can say with absolute certainty is that you are not an animal lover. You’re an animal collector.



And for those of us who opt out of the canine version of Toddlers and Tiaras, remember that there is always an animal out there who is wonderful and who needs a home. Your home. You can be a total superhero for that animal. As for what we, as animal advocates, can do, this is some stuff we prioritize:

Fix your companions! There is no excuse. By understanding there are more animals already than there are people willing to adopt, fixing your companion will ensure you’re not contributing to their already staggering population.
Don’t reward superficial people with superficial comments! One thing we always try to keep in mind is that people who purchase dogs do so in large part because of the dogs’ aesthetic qualities (their squished faces, for example). We make a point of never dwelling on an obviously purebred feature (especially once that compromises the animal’s wellbeing) when talking to their humans because we feel like doing so validates the humans’ decision to buy instead of adopt. That doesn’t mean we are not super tender with the actual animals, we just refuse to reward their human companions for shallowness. (As one reader pointed out however: keep in mind that there are breed-specific rescue groups though!)
Rescue talk! When people remark about our animals, or even when strangers simply find out that we live with animals, we always make a point of talking about where we adopted them from. Remember– even though it seems bizarre to us, there is a serious stigma surrounding rescue animals. Every second we talk about our companions is an opportunity to myth-bust!
Insure your pet! Having an illness or injury that is expensive to treat should never be a reason to end a companion’s life. By insuring your pet (or setting up a savings system so you’re already emergency-ready), you’re ensuring a long and happy life together by taking away much of the stress of covering expensive medical costs. And if you’re considering adopting an older animal, expect medical bills and for insurance to be a bit more expensive.
In closing, shopping is what you do when you need a new toothbrush, or run out of balsamic vinegar. It is not what you do when looking for a companion. So be a superhero. Adopt! Rescues rule!
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Old January 26th, 2012, 07:16 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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I have highlighted some of the points that I feel very strongly about. Please don't buy from breeders, they really don't have dogs' or cats' best interest at heart, there are too many dying in shelters and on the streets.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

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Old January 26th, 2012, 09:45 AM
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Although I personally adopt from shelters and 100% advocate for adopting from shelters whenever possible.... I also 100% disagree with the point that there are no responsible breeders.

I know exactly where the article's author is coming from though. I too have spent time in shelters and have seen firsthand that animals are often put to death simply because they are unwanted. This saddens me to the core. The author (and many members here) are very passionate about animals, so am I.

BUT - In every profession, there are good people, bad people and average people. To categorize them all as bad, imo, is letting the heart overtake the head at a 100% level. When this happens, imo, the spreader of the message gets LESS support, not more.

I 100% agree that it's best that all pets be spayed/neutered. It's better for the animals and it's better for society. This line of thinking needs WAY more publicity in the mass media. We need more' Bob Barkers' and other high profile people to spread this message.
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Old January 26th, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Although I personally adopt from shelters and 100% advocate for adopting from shelters whenever possible.... I also 100% disagree with the point that there are no responsible breeders.
I guess I just can't get my head around why any breeder would breed when there are so many pets dying. That, to me, shows no compassion for those animals and a lack of empathy for life.

The stats posted in this blog about New Mexico, show what is possible if people stop breeding:

Take a look at Albuquerque, New Mexico, which banned the sale of cats and dogs in 2006. Animal adoptions have increased by 23 per cent, while the rate of animals killed at shelters has decreased by 35 percent.

And I know you can't fix every cat and dog because biologically we would wipe out the species, but just stop breeding for a couple of years. Allow us to get the animal overpopulation under control so healthy animals are not being killed.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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Old January 26th, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
.......

Take a look at Albuquerque, New Mexico, which banned the sale of cats and dogs in 2006. Animal adoptions have increased by 23 per cent, while the rate of animals killed at shelters has decreased by 35 percent......
This is AWESOME. And it's a fab start and I wish more cities would join! This ban though (AFAIK) does not stop breeders from breeding, it only prevents pets from being sold in pet stores. It's a big start though and Kudos to Albuquerque and other progressive cities.
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Old January 26th, 2012, 10:56 AM
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This is AWESOME. And it's a fab start and I wish more cities would join! This ban though (AFAIK) does not stop breeders from breeding, it only prevents pets from being sold in pet stores. It's a big start though and Kudos to Albuquerque and other progressive cities.
You are right, but it is a step in the right direction to get homeless pets adopted.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

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Old January 26th, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
And I know you can't fix every cat and dog because biologically we would wipe out the species, but just stop breeding for a couple of years. Allow us to get the animal overpopulation under control so healthy animals are not being killed.
I wont lie and say I actually read this entire thing right now,but do plan on it and admittedly at first I thought " here we go again" but I will say I 110% agree with this statement that I saw.
I wont go into why good breeders are important right now, firstly because my point has been said a thousand times but I do agree that ALL people with the best interest of animals, dogs, cats, their breed ect... at this time of crisis SHOULD take a break. I myself theoretically could have bred a litter this past fall, and all plans were made, suitable sire chosen, deposit given for him ect, however, at that EXACT time a whole lot of well deserving dogs were sitting in shelters in my area alone and being a part of a group of people who were working with the puppy mill dogs from Paws R us at the time, I could not have lived with myself at that moment to have brought up to 11 more puppies into the world/area at that time.
I had to make a choice, one that I could feel good about and one that I could sleep at night. My time, money efforts ect were better suited to the dogs in need both locally and that came here from further away.
There is indeed a major problem, its not a new problem by far and it will not be a quick fix.
however if all breeders be them, COE, reputable, back yard, hobbyist, what ever category they fall under would just take a few years ( this way you could focus on proving your breeding dogs more, focus on health more, focus on a lot of more important things other than the time span between litters) then I really think we could get this undercontrol a bit more.
However, even though as a breeder I am instantly looked down upon by MANY rescue people, Idon't care what the perception of me is, and I don't care if I breed this year coming or not, i don't care that I didn't breed last year or the year before and financially it does not affect me in any way, but... I don't exploit my dogs for financial gain, breeding is NOT what puts food on my table, food in my dogs bellies or pays the bills. Its the people that are puppy farming that we need to stop, the people that could care less about what they are doing, the health, the quality of life their dogs have, and so on. Unfortunately by good breeders, better than me breeders, working dog breeders stopping, it just increases the flow of traffic to these farming breeders as our society is a want what we want and when we want it society. Until the average pet owners are fully aware of what they are supporting and the damage they are causing, sadly every reputable breeder ceasing breeding will do nothing to help the crisis.
This is a various edged sword and by dulling one edge, there are still other edges that cut and cause problems.
Just my 2 cents as I walk out the door.
I will go back and read the OP later on.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 07:53 AM
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Who on this forum needs this? Certainly not Erykah, who just showed how responsible she is. Are there puppy mill owners I haven't twigged are on here yet? Aah, but wait , could it be my mention of breeding Jarrah that bought this on?
Well, just in case , and FYI, Love4himies, I didn't stop breeding for two years, my last ACD litter was 24 years ago! My last Sheltie litter was 7 years ago ! Am I still a breeder, yes, I have been a member for over 35 years of our Canine Council and still hold my breeding prefix. Will I breed with Jarrah? Despite the rant, yes I will if I consider, after her health checks, that it'd be a real loss to the breed to desex her. This breed has struck something of a genetic bottleneck in its country of origin due to the popular sire syndrome. She carries total outcross lines and her dam's lines are not freely available unfortunately. But that matters not at all unless she is DNA tested free of PRCD, BAER tested and found to have full hearing, and comes back with a good elbow and hip score. That article tells people to be prepared to insure and expect medical bills for old dogs, but it's the reputable breeders who are trying to breed sound dogs that hopefully won't be dumped in shelters and cost people a lot to look after. Many people don't mind paying for the fully tested pups knowing they will not go blind, be deaf etc.. Their money, their choice, and they shouldn't be made to feel bad about that. It's a gaurantee after all, a bit like that insurance that needs paying for . Her tests btw will cost more than I paid for her. But, we'll see, a failed test and she's out the gate. LOL. JOKING!! She becomes just another (expensive) pet to be spoilt silly.

Here btw they are cracking down on puppy farmers by making it law that you can't advertise pups or kittens for sale unless they are microchipped. Newspapers refuse to accept the ad's unless microchip numbers are included. Interesting to see a whole column of pets for sale and the only kittens(no pups) are to give away free.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 08:15 AM
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I don't think this thread is all about you Goldfields. I think it is just alittle insight and not geared towards anyone in particular. Anyways, breed away. No one is trying to educate you at all.
How sad that something informative turned into a 'pointing at someone thread'. I mean really?

I think that what is suggested is to simply empower yourself with as much information possible. Make good choices and look into alternatives when choosing a fur companion. True it is hard for those that rescue to even fathom the thought of going to breeders for pets when there are so many within the system nationwide. Everyone in rescue scrambles and networks to extents that you cannot imagine just to literally pull dogs just in the nick of time out of gas chambers or out of danger lists in shelters and/or pounds. But again - this is not about a rescuers ordeal or daily calling.

In general I do believe however that reputable and respected breeders are certainly against millers and other sources of breeding. They are committed to maintain good genetics and lineage of their dogs. I would think that they along with those in rescue would be ideal in educating the public. I would actually love to see this collaboration as I think this is the key.

I am not opposed to breeding by reputable breeders. I would however like to see more involved on the rescue side to help their breed and I would also wish that the rescues and these breeders unit to work together to educate and help rehome.

My for what it is worth...(maybe one cent).
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Old January 27th, 2012, 08:49 AM
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I don't think this thread is all about you Goldfields. I think it is just alittle insight and not geared towards anyone in particular. Anyways, breed away. No one is trying to educate you at all.
How sad that something informative turned into a 'pointing at someone thread'. I mean really?

I think that what is suggested is to simply empower yourself with as much information possible. Make good choices and look into alternatives when choosing a fur companion. True it is hard for those that rescue to even fathom the thought of going to breeders for pets when there are so many within the system nationwide. Everyone in rescue scrambles and networks to extents that you cannot imagine just to literally pull dogs just in the nick of time out of gas chambers or out of danger lists in shelters and/or pounds. But again - this is not about a rescuers ordeal or daily calling.

In general I do believe however that reputable and respected breeders are certainly against millers and other sources of breeding. They are committed to maintain good genetics and lineage of their dogs. I would think that they along with those in rescue would be ideal in educating the public. I would actually love to see this collaboration as I think this is the key.

I am not opposed to breeding by reputable breeders. I would however like to see more involved on the rescue side to help their breed and I would also wish that the rescues and these breeders unit to work together to educate and help rehome.

My for what it is worth...(maybe one cent).
Excellent post, BM .

For me, I too would love to see "rep" breeders to help more in rescuing, it would prove to me that they really do care about the others in need of a home.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 08:57 AM
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I too don't see this as a post to point fingers. Not at all actually.

What I love about this post though is that I found out that there are more progressive cities than i had thought and it shows the power of cities and city laws. I am SO impressed with these progressive cities...and cities are made of PASSIONATE people that help get these laws passed.

Some cities that get Kudos include; West Hollywood California, South Lake Tahoe, California, Albuquerque new mexico, Richmond B.C, Even Toronto, Ontario and the bourough of Rosemont petit-patrie in Montreal I believe. pets are no longer sold in stores in those cities. Still a long way to go for sure...but things are moving in the right direction.

This is very progressive thinking and I hope it catches on like a virus.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 09:01 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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I too don't see this as a post to point fingers. Not at all actually.
Good because it's a great thread and I do not feel that anyone has been singled out contrary to what one believes.

Infact Marko, there are certain municipalities in Montreal that are making steps towards good ownership all with the collaboration with the SPCA.

Last edited by Carnac; February 2nd, 2012 at 06:49 PM. Reason: added "[" to fix quote
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Old January 27th, 2012, 09:18 AM
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I too don't see this as a post to point fingers. Not at all actually.

What I love about this post though is that I found out that there are more progressive cities than i had thought and it shows the power of cities and city laws. I am SO impressed with these progressive cities...and cities are made of PASSIONATE people that help get these laws passed.

Some cities that get Kudos include; West Hollywood California, South Lake Tahoe, California, Albuquerque new mexico, Richmond B.C, Even Toronto, Ontario and the bourough of Rosemont petit-patrie in Montreal I believe. pets are no longer sold in stores in those cities. Still a long way to go for sure...but things are moving in the right direction.

This is very progressive thinking and I hope it catches on like a virus.

I do love to hear about cities that are changing their thinking about animal control. To just allow animals to breed just to put them to death is just not humane. We humans should be smarter and more compassionate than that.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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Old January 27th, 2012, 01:08 PM
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I too did not read it all,but can understand by reading everyones responses and I know something has to be done about all the over-crowded shelters,stop healthy animals from being killed..
Stop Pet-Stores from selling pups and kittens is a good start,as I know 2 "pet-stores"who went out of business,after numerous complaints,no more"pet-stores"here in Oakville.
The problem is they are still being sold on Kijiji and other sites,it looks however like Kijiji is trying to change that.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 06:37 PM
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Excellent post L4H. Thank you for sharing.
BenMax, I love your points. You always have such good ones.
erykah1310, thank you for your post. I always find them interesting - in a good way for the most part.

I believe those numbers from 2008 to be much worse now. The numbers for this area alone are sickening. It's hard to wrap your head around. And yet, they keep on breeding. Wonderful!
I speak to many breeders in my line of work. A lot of them buy their food from us. It's sad. They close their eyes to what's around them and keep on keeping on. And "they do it for the love of the breed" pulls no weight. Most are quite open with the fact that they do it because they can make good money at it. Wonderful!!! Now how can we keep on believing those who say "they don't make money at it" when so many have told me differently?
One is a Siamese breeder. She is finally getting out of business after 20+ years and, to her credit, she admits she has made a good profit off these cats. We have had great conversations. She sees what is going on - finally. Wonderful! One down - many to go.

Again L4, thank you my friend for posting. It needs to be repeated time and time again.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 08:05 PM
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Excellent post L4H. Thank you for sharing.
BenMax, I love your points. You always have such good ones.
erykah1310, thank you for your post. I always find them interesting - in a good way for the most part.

I believe those numbers from 2008 to be much worse now. The numbers for this area alone are sickening. It's hard to wrap your head around. And yet, they keep on breeding. Wonderful!
I speak to many breeders in my line of work. A lot of them buy their food from us. It's sad. They close their eyes to what's around them and keep on keeping on. And "they do it for the love of the breed" pulls no weight. Most are quite open with the fact that they do it because they can make good money at it. Wonderful!!! Now how can we keep on believing those who say "they don't make money at it" when so many have told me differently?
One is a Siamese breeder. She is finally getting out of business after 20+ years and, to her credit, she admits she has made a good profit off these cats. We have had great conversations. She sees what is going on - finally. Wonderful! One down - many to go.

Again L4, thank you my friend for posting. It needs to be repeated time and time again.
So nice to hear from you again 14+ I am so glad this person has gotten out of the breeding business .

Oh yes, they make a profit from breeding. The start up costs for a new "rep" breeder may high, but if you have a litter of 5 at about 1500K each, that is 7500 bucks. That should about cover the costs. Every litter after that is gravy.

Now I don't doubt the breeder thinks they love the breed they are breeding. But, to me, to truly love a breed (or species), you would not want to have some of that breed thrown into a gas chamber to die a horrid death. You would want all of them to have homes that they are well taken care of. So while the breeder is breeding said breed and allowing those 5 cutie pies to be born, 5 cutie pies of the same breed are dying in shelters. The puppies breeders create are no more deserving of a loving home than those who are in shelters, hoping somebody comes to their rescue before their time is up.

Very sad that pets, who we claim to love, are treated really no better than our cars.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post

Oh yes, they make a profit from breeding. The start up costs for a new "rep" breeder may high, but if you have a litter of 5 at about 1500K each, that is 7500 bucks. That should about cover the costs. Every litter after that is gravy.
Oh yes there is a profit from even your first litter depending on the size. I have gone head to head about this exact topic with some show breeders over the past year and I have flat out laughed when they said there was no money made from them breeding! First thing I had to ask was... "what did you drive to get here" most of the time it is a fancy RV or nice top of the line pick up.
Yes I "made" money on my first litter, but since then I have put double that back into my dogs in some way or another not including feeding or general care that I would have spent on owning the number of dogs I choose to own. Does that mean I made no money off my dogs? No! and I assure you I could have been greedy and pushed to make even more now that I have 2 females and a male of my own.
Last year I could have had one litter, This year I could have had 2 litters and no stud fee's if that is what I cared about. The way I see it, my dogs are young, lets have fun first.

I don't know why it is so taboo for a breeder to admit that by breeding they make enough money to support their passions, be it conformation, sporting or what ever you are in to.

I personally have no problem with someone being honest about profiting but proving to me in some way or another that their dogs do not merely sit in a crate the rest of the week when not at a show, or having pups.

I get a little upset when I hear of "ethical show breeders" who don't make money breeding yet have 20+ dogs in a small barn or shed on their property and only pull them out to put them in the ring or send them for breeding. Then when their breeding dogs get too old or they decide to change lines, they put their dogs in rescue! It happens FAR too much in the show world than I would like to believe, sport dog venues I have been involved with so far seem to "place" dogs more into pet homes when the pup doesn't seem to have the right drive for x sport after they grow them a bit.

So, even sometimes what is generally believed to be the only kind of breeders you should go to... they can be just as harmful to the pet over population problem as a byb or puppy farmer.

Each puppy or kitten a breeder brings into this world they NEED to be responsible for FOR the ENTIRE life of said animal.

Cut back on the numbers of litters, stop breeding dogs right at 2 just because you can and start taking FULL responsibility.
this BS of not making money breeding really gets me going, its non sense.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 11:03 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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Also...
Now that I have actually read the original post and being that I am all over the place and referred to as the canine equivalent of toddlers and tiaras, and a resonsibreeder or what ever. As someone who is quite active with their dogs and some of the sports I love really does require a dog bred with specific points in mind and while a rescue or "hand me down" dog can "do" most sports, sometimes especially in bitework sports you need a very solid temperament, a nervy dog is a danger in far more ways than one. There are importances to specified breeding programs. But again, one could argue that there is no need for dogs to anything more than lay on our couches and go for a daily walk with us, but that depends greatly on breeds and each and every owners lifestyle.

I personally would rather know darn well that a dog I am doing this sort of stuff with is coming from a long line of mentally stable and drivey dogs.
This is one of the best vids that show all aspects of a sport that requires more obedience and training that most other sports out there... Sorry about the Eminem song... not my vid so there is foul language to the music...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CQeV...eature=related

To say that the breeders who take this stuff seriously should not breed because some byber got a Mal or Dutchie and decided to breed nervy dogs would ruin an entire sport and fast.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
So nice to hear from you again 14+

Sorry. I've been a tad bit busy with a few kitties......... I'll try to do better with staying in touch. I'll post some new pics soon somewhere besides FB.

Oh yes, they make a profit from breeding. The start up costs for a new "rep" breeder may high, but if you have a litter of 5 at about 1500K each, that is 7500 bucks. That should about cover the costs. Every litter after that is gravy.
My hubby and I have been joking about what breed we should get - eventually. I am not ready for another dog yet and when I am would like to get an older rescue pup. He keeps saying he wants three wiener dogs that are small enough to fit in his pockets. Of course he's joking. But he has been watching a lot of dog shows on TV and looking at different sites. Of course one of them is kijiji. He can't get over the price of dogs on there. If he even suggests we get one from there .......... it won't happen! But we will not go the breeder route. When and if we do get another dog we will go to the shelter or through a rescue.
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Old January 28th, 2012, 02:02 AM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Welcome back to the triad.

Erykah, I'm with you on it being careful breeders who should be breeding certain types of dogs. My sister would agree also, after her experiences with Dobermans. Because of past experiences I also want more information than any shelter can hand out on a rescue cattle dog. Though they can appear friendly, they are protective, so will it just hold an intruder or visitor with a warning till you come home, as many do, or is it savage when you aren't home? Is it a trustworthy personal guard dog? Has it any working ability, does it just want to chase stock through fences, does it heel low enough to avoid a fractured skull, does it bite too hard? Is it good with children? Some would never harm a child, in fact they would guard stranger's children if father wanted to smack the child for being naughty, yet others could seem okay and all of a sudden turn nasty. Is it a latent cat killer? So many things to consider, but so much a breeder can tell you about the parents, grandparents , earlier full or half siblings etc..

Love4himies, I doubt if Erykah or I move in circles where people are out to breed litters at the rate you mention. Only one of mine ever had a second litter, smallish litters being shelties, very much in demand, the demand far exceeds the supply here, yet I have two pups from each litter. Mattie and Toby, Dundee and Bo. Love them all, could have placed Dundee easily as he got the sympathy vote because of his birth defects, could have refused to have Bo back when his owner had to part with him, could have resold him , LOL, but they are sooo hard to part with. Nothing you say will ever take away one ounce of the pleasure I get from seeing how much the others are loved by their owners. I stopped breeding them basically for the same reason I did the cattle dogs, not enough people did health checks for me to believe I could breed sound dogs. That situation is now improving in leaps and bounds. Customers help when they demand tested puppies. Our canine councils helped by getting the message through to customers.
I don't know how you need to get your message out. I think it needs to be to the customer though, you won't shame a dedicated, money making byb into quitting their shameful but lucrative ways. Do your local papers allow half a page of photo's of shelter dogs and cats like ours do? Our Pound manages to place many of the animals, in fact for those who care, that Kelpie I handed in .... owner did not come looking for her but the Ranger, who is loathe to destroy her, told me he's given her to a farmer to try as a worker. she is going to behave. Naturally I will follow that up, she was a sweetie.
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  #21  
Old January 28th, 2012, 07:10 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
My hubby and I have been joking about what breed we should get - eventually. I am not ready for another dog yet and when I am would like to get an older rescue pup. He keeps saying he wants three wiener dogs that are small enough to fit in his pockets. Of course he's joking. But he has been watching a lot of dog shows on TV and looking at different sites. Of course one of them is kijiji. He can't get over the price of dogs on there. If he even suggests we get one from there .......... it won't happen! But we will not go the breeder route. When and if we do get another dog we will go to the shelter or through a rescue.
I do go on your FB page to look at all your pics , but admittedly, I am not a FB fan.

I, too, can't believe the price people pay for dogs on kijiji . Can you imagine if they adopted from the local shelter and donated the remainder of the funds they saved to them? The shelters would be able to do so much more for those poor unfortunate cast offs that breeders and those who don't fix their pets, continue to produce.

BTW, I need your advice on trapping possibly 2 cats. I will post elsewhere though
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  #22  
Old January 28th, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Shaykeija Shaykeija is offline
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I believe that we should be like Germany and have a mandatory law to spay neuter all animals. If you should want to breed for any reason, you have to apply for a licence. In Germany there is not the same problem as we have here in Canada and other uninformed countries with over population and high kill. In Germany, old and sick animals are often adopted out and get to live their lives with kindness. An expensive licence for every litter would weed out the crappy back yard breeders with the hybrid mixes. Only the true breeders that are doing it to better the breed would be able to do this... just my 2 cents....
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Old January 28th, 2012, 10:15 AM
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We are so far behind Europe's treatment of animals, it is unbelievable. During my 4 years that I lived over there as an adult, I learned so much on how humans should be living and respecting companion animals. They are not thrown out like trash, they are treated as part of the family.
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Old January 28th, 2012, 11:00 AM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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I'd vote for something like Germany has, not only does it save many many animals, but it would also greatly help people looking for a specific sport/ working dog by not having to weed through smoke and mirrors sites and breeders.
A per litter licence is a great idea! Costly enough to really make you think and discourage millers but not so much that you drive people underground.
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Old January 28th, 2012, 11:05 AM
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Name:  404199_10150507338303813_81663388812_8889721_1625779069_n.jpg
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Size:  11.5 KB i like this
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Old January 28th, 2012, 11:22 AM
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Attachment 76752 i like this
Me too
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
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In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

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  #27  
Old January 28th, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Erykah,I have always known you to really care and love your animals,be it dogs,cats or horses.
Yout TM's are gorgeous and unethical breeder is not a word I would use describing you and I applaud your honesty.
I don't know much of the show-circuit,but often wonder when I watch a dog-show,what if the dog is not perfect??
I believe with cats it's a little bit different,a family up the street from me has been breeding cats,supplying pet-stores for years,I was glad when the stores closed,but she's still breeding.
The husband asked me if I wanted a kitten,since they have a litter now.
He said,it's a Russian Blue,except he's orange..that just tells you how much they know.
Now,their daughters sell them in school,they advertise in the paper and probably on Kijiji if they have a computer.
They have no idea to what kind of homes the kittens are going,it angers me to no end,since at that time our Humane Society had about 200 cats and I told him so,if you love cats,you do not breed!
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  #28  
Old February 2nd, 2012, 12:07 PM
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If I may reply here

I had mini Schnauzers, CKC registered, (also had a kennel) and several of our friends and neighbours wanted that particular breed of dog, so I did breed, raise and sold pure bred dogs for awhile, however, before even considering to breed my females, a deposit had to be had on the puppy. Then a check was made on the person, if not known personally, was made and if I felt or saw anything that might constitute any abuse to the puppy, the deposit was returned. If there was no interest then the females were not bred that year. (Actually, both females were only bred for 3 years, then spayed, and my stud neutered.)

At the time I had 2 females, and only bred them once a year, and used the females alternately. The puppies were raised in the house, and kept until they were 12 weeks, and by the time they were raised were well on the way to being house trained.. Actually, mom would do the training, as I would send them out at the same time. It worked very nicely for me. All puppies were socialized before leaving and were also groomed a couple of times so they didn't have the scary feature of the big bad groomer coming at them.

I had people sign a contract that they would spay/neuter the pup, and I had to have a copy of that certificate. Also in the contract, it stated that if I saw or heard of any abuse to the animal, I would come and claim it back, which did happen..

I know that some people are not as stern as I was in my breeding, and are looking only for the money, and I object strongly to the fact that folks and pet stores are breeding and asking huge prices for cross bred dogs. I have had some clerks tell me that a yorkie/schnauzer cross was purebred, had that happen one time when grooming a dog..... well yeah, duh, I must have a huge sticker on my forehead saying, Loser. I procede to tell them that they are crazy and walk out.

Have also adopted a couple of dogs, which are no longer alive, but now have two adopted cats in my home. For me, adopting now is a huge pleasure, and I support it fully. If anyone talks to me of wanting to buy a dog, I always encourage them to do the research of that particular dog, and to always look at adopting.

Just wanted to have my worth.
take care
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  #29  
Old February 2nd, 2012, 04:22 PM
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Masha Masha is offline
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When I joined this board, I just bought our guy from a breeder. I was one of the people that always believed that as long as you do research and get your dog from an ethical breeder, that it is ok - essentially I supported breeders as long as they were ethical (at least whatever that term meant to me at that point in my life).

After being a member (albeit not too active) of this form, I can honestly say that I feel that my eyes have been opened to the sever over population of dogs and cats. I now cannot ever see myself ever purchasing a puppy ever again - my husband and extended family are all on board as well - we will rescue and adopt when we decide to expand our family further.

I agree with L4H that as long as there are so many amazing dogs and cats that are being put down, that there is no point in breeding... is it to 'preserve' a breed? well all a breed is, is something that us humans created anyways... who cares what breed your dog is? If you are getting a dog because you simply want a dog of a certain 'look' maybe a dog is not for you.... i think the ONLY way i see an exception to this is when dogs are bread for work but as a pet... i dont think anyone needs to go the breeder route and I believe that no matter how 'ethical' the breeder is or how responsible they are, at the end of the day they are still adding to the over population of cats and dogs... and that to me, is not what being ethical is.
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 04:28 PM
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Masha! it is so nice to see you again!!! I loved your explanation.

It makes one think. I will not comment because I honestly dont know enough about breeding to comment.

I do know that my 2 beautiful kitties were rescued from being fed to a snake and that my 2 dogs now have both been rescued and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way.
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