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  #31  
Old August 17th, 2009, 09:04 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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we were watching a show the other day on the mass slaughter of animals to the point of extinction. Can't remember what the one animal was at the moment but it went from being in most of Africa in the numbers of the millions and is now down to are you ready for it. 2,500. Just boggles my mind how man can think that this is ok, and that we have the right to just take and take and take.
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  #32  
Old August 17th, 2009, 09:19 PM
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I find it said that we have become a society that turns our back on other species. We are suppose to be the most compassionate, but are the least...all due to greed, power and superior.

I also find it sad that we as a society protest and rise in anger in alterring a wild specie, when we do it everyday to your domestic animals, for our own self needs.

Remember, society domesicated the dog.

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  #33  
Old August 17th, 2009, 09:23 PM
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if you think about it ACO we do it to our own species all the time, the jews, iraq, the blacks, and so on. If something is in our way, we kill it, period.bbbbbbbb
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  #34  
Old August 18th, 2009, 02:47 AM
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  #35  
Old August 18th, 2009, 09:08 AM
bluestar bluestar is offline
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I generally stay out of these kind of discussions and seriously doubt I will sway anyone's opinion here, but I will lend some support to BM although I would suggest to her that if you do decide to debate anything on a public forum to try to keep things as emotionless as possible and not to take anything said against you to heart as people will always react irrationally on public forums.

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Originally Posted by chico2 View Post
Why do you think the whole world are in uproar,every Seal-"hunting"season?
The world is in an uproar every hunting season because some celebrities decided to use their fame to sway public opinion because they take issue with an industry that hunts an animal that is cute and cuddly in their eyes. These same people are not as adamant about other forms of life that are cruelly slaughtered like a chicken or cow. There are things that are far worse in this world that these people could focus their attention on, but nothing creates a more poignant image than a pair of large baby seal eyes. They may say they are against all forms of animal cruelty, but they do not actively and publically berate those industries because the images do not have as great an impact on the public.

The only good that has come from their involvement is at least it has created enough outcry to change the hunting practices in the industry and to force the government to regulate the industry and focus on ensuring that the seal population is not threatened which is the most important factor in any industry that uses natural resources, be it fishing, hunting or logging.

There will always be fools in any industry that do things that are not legal nor morally right (generally when a camera is placed in their face and cash handed over), but it is up to the government to monitor the industry and enforce the laws so that these things do not happen. But painting every person involved in the industry with the same brush makes no sense. Just because you see one person doing something illegal does not mean everyone involved in the industry does. Any fool that is out there risking their life to look good for the camera deserves anything that happens to them while on the ice. Clambering over the ice and taking their life into their hands to club a seal is the most idiotic thing a person can do.

The seal fishery is a minute industry that really impacts a small minority of people. It is only used as supplement for most people during the offseason. Yet people treat it as if it were a multi-billion dollar industry that is destroying people's lives and the planet. This is hardly big tobacco or oil, yet has more public outcry. As long as it is done with a focus on conservation and a market exists, I personally believe there is nothing wrong with allowing it to continue. Were that market to disappear, then there is nothing wrong with closing it down, or keeping a smaller food fishery open, but the industry itself is not an issue as long as it is done properly. A few images of a few people behaving improperly certainly does not mean everyone is.
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  #36  
Old August 18th, 2009, 09:43 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Bluestar - I hope you are not implying that anyone in this thread has acted out irrationally. If so, I don't see it.

Also, it is the mannerism by which these seals are killed which is the most distrubing. If celebraties want to take up this cause why not? They take up other causes such as diseases, promoting fundraising for the less priviledged or the homeless. Whatever their passion is, they speak. I don't know why this area should be exempt from them discussing and promoting their concerns, interest or promoting public awareness.

Everyone has somesort of passion. Passion is emotional and that's just the way it is.

In rescue, I fundraise. I am passionate about domestic animals. I am not going to make excuses for this emotional rollar coaster. I own it. I also am working on some important work about gas chambers in this country. It's ugly and I will speak of it. I also am involved in stopping puppymills and the selling of animals in petstores. The truth is ugly and I will educate, scream, kick and bite if I have to. It's my passion. I will educate, I will expose the nasty truth. I am also challenged quite frequently and told that there are more important 'human' issues and interests. When fundraising I have dealt with hostility because 'humans' are suffering. Should I cease my efforts and ignore my passion? Not on your life.

There is room for everyone that has a passion for whatever that is. That's our right and my passion will follow me personally to my grave.
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  #37  
Old August 18th, 2009, 09:44 AM
aslan aslan is offline
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Bluestar, Babymomma has known many of us for a very long time and has many conversations with us.

As for the seal hunt, i don't give a crap who gets out of their heated limo to trudge out onto the ice to have their picture taken. I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.

An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest. Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.
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  #38  
Old August 18th, 2009, 10:11 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
Bluestar, Babymomma has known many of us for a very long time and has many conversations with us.

As for the seal hunt, i don't give a crap who gets out of their heated limo to trudge out onto the ice to have their picture taken. I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.

An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest. Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.
Here, here. (or is it hear, hear) ..either way, I agree.
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  #39  
Old August 18th, 2009, 11:01 AM
bluestar bluestar is offline
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Bluestar - I hope you are not implying that anyone in this thread has acted out irrationally. If so, I don't see it.
By irrational I mean by allowing emotion to cloud their objectivity. Staying rational allows you to consider any arguments against you not just how better to refute them, but how the argument may lend credence to your own point of view. I am not speaking of anyone specifically, I just find when people debate a topic that creates such controversy, they tend to let emotion become too overblown and refuse to even consider the other party's arguments, simply spouting their own arguments with no rebuttal. Debating to me is all about looking at it from the other person's point of view and working backwards towards your own goal.

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Also, it is the mannerism by which these seals are killed which is the most distrubing.
The point in case is that the mannerism used in killing these seals has changed. A few may still continue to use these methods, but it does not equate to the fact that everyone does. This is where I would perceive irrationality, in assuming the few represent the whole. Steps have been taken in this industry to stop these methods and persecute those who commit them, yet it is assumed that everyone that particpates in the industry is still involved in them.

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Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
I DO care that an animal, any animal is being slaughtered for its pelt. The remainder of the animal isn't as important to them. In this day and age there is no need to kill an animal for the sake of clothing.
Unfortunately, the market still exists. I don't necessarily see the purpose in a fur industry, but it is a way of living for a few people. I do not begrudge those who make a living from it as long as it is not harmful to the seal population. Perhaps for me I view any unused parts of the seal as being returned to nature, the same way an animal dying of natural causes would.

Besides which the entire industry is not all about the pelt, there is a food industry for the seal, yet it is never differentiated. But people take issue to the killing correct, so it would stand to reason that how the seal is used is really a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
An animal killed by another animal is used to its fullest.
Not all animals kill simply for hunger. Animal deaths happen for other reasons, territory disputes, mating, simple survival, etc. Nature is cruel as we view it, but subscribing our morality to a force like nature makes little sense. It simply exists outside of our moral compass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
Man basically destroys everything in his path, then sulks when the animal is almost or completely extinct. We don't even hesitate to kill our own kind. This is what most of us on here care about, not the method used to do it.
This would be a valid argument if the seals were anywhere close to being extinct. They are not, and the scale of the industry is not endagering them. If this is the case, then it should be safe to assume it shouldn't matter how they are killed as long as we are responsible in ensuring the population is not put at risk, correct? To me it appears we have one invalid argument which seems to contradict the previous arguments that it is the methods of the industry, which is also an invalid argument.

I am only saying that I agree to an extent with most people about the industry, but rationally I believe I cannot be against the industry completely if it is done responsibly. There will always be those who do not act responsibly, and we need to remain vigilant to ensure they are prosecuted.

This is all extremely off topic.
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  #40  
Old August 18th, 2009, 11:46 AM
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I'm not touching the seal thing, but I do find the original article interesting.

What strikes me is the "ethics" commentary that seems to be stated (or implied) in the story. It would appear that its "bad" that these animals are responsible for some deaths of livestock (although the evidence to support the claims are pretty shaky). It would also appear that it's "bad" that these animals exist in the first place.

As a biologist, I always find it curious how value statements get attached to natural phenomena, how humans tend to anthropomorphosize other species or behaviours. The fact is, evolution and the development of new species are directed by species' environments. It happens all the time, whether humans want or intend it to, or not. It's not bad or good, it just is what it is...evolution and natural selection.
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  #41  
Old August 18th, 2009, 11:56 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Just to comment on the above. If you read my posts I stated that I did go to observe a hunt. I saw and I base my opinions and 'feelings' on my own observations.
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  #42  
Old August 18th, 2009, 02:54 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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Quote:
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This is all extremely off topic.
you're right it is absolutely off topic. This thread is about Coywolves, not whether or not needlessly killing animals( not just seals) is ok. And if you look back at one of my responses, i commented on the coywolves.
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  #43  
Old August 21st, 2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post

As a biologist, I always find it curious how value statements get attached to natural phenomena, how humans tend to anthropomorphosize other species or behaviours. The fact is, evolution and the development of new species are directed by species' environments. It happens all the time, whether humans want or intend it to, or not. It's not bad or good, it just is what it is...evolution and natural selection.
Amen Sista

If we turn the world into a place where three headed fish can flourish, we shouldn't be surprised if three-headed fish take over.

Now, if only we could convince the people who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 4000 years ago.

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  #44  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 09:43 PM
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The point in case is that the mannerism used in killing these seals has changed. A few may still continue to use these methods, but it does not equate to the fact that everyone does. This is where I would perceive irrationality, in assuming the few represent the whole. Steps have been taken in this industry to stop these methods and persecute those who commit them, yet it is assumed that everyone that particpates in the industry is still involved in them.

Here here to you my friend! It has changed.. Yep, alot of idiots use the wrong methods.. But those methods are ussually used by people whom dont actually make a living off of it and do it for the pure "joy of the hunt" Ive grown up with this, literally.. Have heard the side of everystory. Talked to MANY sealers.. And have yet to find one that uses a stick to kill the animal. They all use guns.


Unfortunately, the market still exists. I don't necessarily see the purpose in a fur industry, but it is a way of living for a few people. I do not begrudge those who make a living from it as long as it is not harmful to the seal population. Perhaps for me I view any unused parts of the seal as being returned to nature, the same way an animal dying of natural causes would.
Besides which the entire industry is not all about the pelt, there is a food industry for the seal, yet it is never differentiated. But people take issue to the killing correct, so it would stand to reason that how the seal is used is really a moot point.

Alot of people here eat seal.. Its not like most of the boats go out, kill the seal, skin it and leave the rest of it out on the ice. We use all we can of the seal. Aboriginals in this provnce still use EVERY part of the seal that they can. Granted these people are few and far between (unfortunatly).



Not all animals kill simply for hunger. Animal deaths happen for other reasons, territory disputes, mating, simple survival, etc. Nature is cruel as we view it, but subscribing our morality to a force like nature makes little sense. It simply exists outside of our moral compass.

I dont understand this either.. We are animals.... We have instinct. We need to eat.. Granted we are intelligent but common, we are still animals... I dont see how cutting up a steak on your kitchen counter is much better then going out an killing a seal or a cow.. An animal had to die For YOU to cut it up and eat it. It died because YOU are putting out a demand for meat. Yea I love animals.. But im not blind... I still think that somebody who eats meat and still argues how they could NEVER hurt an animal, is a hypocrit. I know when I eat a steak that I put an animal thru great suffering. I will not deny that.


This would be a valid argument if the seals were anywhere close to being extinct. They are not, and the scale of the industry is not endagering them. If this is the case, then it should be safe to assume it shouldn't matter how they are killed as long as we are responsible in ensuring the population is not put at risk, correct? To me it appears we have one invalid argument which seems to contradict the previous arguments that it is the methods of the industry, which is also an invalid argument.

This is all extremely off topic.
They are far frm extinct. this winter we had close on to 150 seals out on the ice almost in front of our house.. People we going out and shooting them..

If there wasnt a sealing industry. SO SO SO many other marine wildlife would be extinct right now. Take the cod fish for example... Humans killed most of them off. Not just us, alot of the problems come from foreigners as well.. Since the sealing idndustry has gone down, the cod has gone WAY down as well.. we have the cod Moratorium in place, but they dont have a chance at repopulating because of the seals. And the fact that there greatest spawning ground is still allowed to be fished out by foreigners, mostly poachers. But thats another thread.

And because there isnt much food, I watch hundreds of dead seals roll up onto the shore each spring because of starvation. Granted some died from other reasons. But the people sent to clean up all the dead seals do studies and such.
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  #45  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 10:06 PM
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In case anyone has forgotten what the original thread was about.

An emerging new species . . . . the Coywolf --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Toronto Star article on the emerging Coywolf . . . . a result of human impact on the planet . . .

The larger, highly adaptable animals "have the wolf characteristics of pack hunting and aggression and the coyote characteristics of lack of fear of human-developed areas," says Trent University geneticist Bradley White, who's been studying the hybrids for 12 years.

We're seeing "evolution in action," he says.

But that combination of genetic material from both species has spelled trouble for farmers, who are losing a growing number of livestock to predators.

They report attacks by animals that are bigger, bolder and smarter than regular coyotes. They say hunting in packs to prey on sheep and cattle in broad daylight is becoming a common behaviour.

Durham Region farmers have suffered the most damage to livestock in the province. Last year the food and agriculture ministry paid out a total compensation of $168,000 in the region for 545 dead or injured animals.

Commonly called eastern coyotes, the creatures are actually a mixture of western coyote and eastern wolf that comes from a constantly evolving gene pool, says White, chair and professor of biology in Peterborough.

Going back 100 years, deforestation, wolf control programs and changing habitat, ecosystems and prey conspired to drive down the wolf population. Meanwhile, the number of coyotes whose original range was in western North America grew, thanks to their ability to adapt and reproduce with ease. The two species started to interbreed, White explains.

"In many ways, this animal is a creation of human impact on the planet," says White.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/681632
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  #46  
Old August 23rd, 2009, 08:19 AM
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Old August 24th, 2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
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Now, if only we could convince the people who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 4000 years ago.

Rick C
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I worked in the Canadian Museum of Nature for some time, they have a marvelous fossil collection on display. You wouldn't beleive how many times I'd be holding a 68+million year-old hadrosaur bone when someone would say, "you know what theory of extinction I like? The one where the flood came and destroyed all the dinosaurs...they were too heavy to swim so they died. " Um, yeah. Uh huh. Those people were pretty much lost causes when it came to educating them, but I DID try...
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