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View Poll Results: Who do you prefer, Brad or Cesar?
Brad 17 14.17%
Cesar 71 59.17%
Neither 29 24.17%
Both are equal 3 2.50%
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  #61  
Old November 11th, 2008, 03:23 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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I actually think that both trainers have some good and some bad points as do most real life trainers as well. I do hear you on the whole alpha roll thing but I believe there is something to be said for being a "pack leader". Perhaps Caesar oversimplifies the issue but even very well respected trainers (Patricia McConnell, Suzanne Clothier) talk a lot about being a leader to your dogs so obviously it does apply.

I do believe that there are dogs that don't work with ALL positive type training. Riley is perhaps one of those (gonna get flamed here I think). He is a very confident, high energy dog who really needed to learn some self control. He is not super food motivated and toys just served (especially balls) to increase his stimulation level. There is a way to combine both the positive stuff but still use some "negative" methods and get results.
TeriM - use whatever works. I am perhaps not the best trainer but I do pat myself on the back because I do get alot of positive results and do get called back for more assistance....and I do it for glass bottles of coke and a donation made to a shelter or rescue of their choice.

Sometimes all this positive stuff works and sometimes it doesn't. I just re-homed a dog with severe food aggression and trust me - it was not all positive training that went into it. It was patience and time outs if you will - but it worked like a charm.
  #62  
Old November 11th, 2008, 03:35 PM
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Thanks Benmax .

I also sometimes am surprised that people are soooooo opposed to any consequences for bad behaviour. You wouldn't expect to be able to raise a child by only bribing and rewarding the good behaviour . I am NOT ADVOCATING any form of abuse or beating in any way, shape or form but a correction is not necessarily a bad thing.
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  #63  
Old November 11th, 2008, 03:40 PM
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Thanks Benmax .

I also sometimes am surprised that people are soooooo opposed to any consequences for bad behaviour. You wouldn't expect to be able to raise a child by only bribing and rewarding the good behaviour . I am NOT ADVOCATING any form of abuse or beating in any way, shape or form but a correction is not necessarily a bad thing.
Listen I have a great kid because it was not all positive reinforcement I can guarantee you that! My main ingrediant to succesful training is trust. (it certainly is not my spelling).
  #64  
Old November 11th, 2008, 03:48 PM
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Listen I have a great kid because it was not all positive reinforcement I can guarantee you that! My main ingrediant to succesful training is trust. (it certainly is not my spelling).
I totally agree . Trust is so important in building a good and mutually respectful relationship with our dogs .
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  #65  
Old November 11th, 2008, 03:59 PM
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I totally agree . Trust is so important in building a good and mutually respectful relationship with our dogs .
And now I am learning to apply this to people....
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Old November 11th, 2008, 04:05 PM
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animals are much easier and generally much more deserving of our trust .
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  #67  
Old November 11th, 2008, 04:29 PM
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Hey.. I remember you.. And your gorgeous dog. Are you going to the Rally at Superdogs on the 23?

I am all for a leadership role. Someone has to lead the dance. BUT not because I am the bigger, meaner, nastier dog. I lead because I am the controller of resources.

I am a leader of dogs, not a pack, as domestic dogs don't pack.

As I said the stuff I do like is not unique to him, nor is it new. I do not think it is acceptable for ANY TRAINER to risk serious injury to dogs, just to see what will happen. That is totally irresponsible. I loved how the owner of the dog was smart enough to grab the little dog and keep it out of the fight. She had better instincts than Mr Dog Whisperer herself.

I have dogs who fight, who have done SERIOUS damage to each other. I work with them to make them 'better' but I would never ever ever just let them all run together 'just to see what would happen!' It was pretty obvious when the people walked in what was going to happen (well after they were not allowed to greet their dog).

I agree with not rewarding jumping up. BUT the dog is happy to see its owners. Think of it this way. If it had been a child staying at someomes house and it had come out running "yay you are back" and went to throw their arms around the people... would it have been apropriate to push the child away and ignore it? He should have told them HOW to greet their dog. How to teach it to greet. Then the dog could have done what is hardwired into all dogs (greet leaders) in an acceptable manner. That at least would have lowered the dog's stress level.

These are large dogs who bite and hold. Where were the break sticks? This fight actually wasn't really all that bad as fights go. BUT it was bad enough the Milan told them their dog was horrible and he would trade them for one of his. Thank goodness the people said no.



I totally agree it is trust. BUT punishing your child/dog without them truly understanding the rules is the best way to break trust. I am a mostly positive trainer. But I am not adverse to the odd aversive. BUT if you need to apply an aversive more than 2 its not effective. AND you have to be prepared for fall out. I never use averives with my fosters. EVER.

Now positive does NOT mean permissive. You can be very harsh and be positive. Ruff Love is a book that many people think is waaaayyyy too harsh, but its 100% positive. I know of a lady who did the program with one of her (very out of control dog) it worked-but she was in tears with how harsh it was for her dog! Many trainers who work with those crazy high drive impulse challenged dogs seem to be able to gain phenomenal control...all with out correcting the dogs.

IMO if you wouldn't expect a 3 year old child to understand, or you wouldnt' do it to 3 year old child then don't do it to your dog. The smartest dog on earth isn't anywhere near the average 3 year old human.
  #68  
Old November 11th, 2008, 04:38 PM
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I agree with not rewarding jumping up. BUT the dog is happy to see its owners. Think of it this way. If it had been a child staying at someomes house and it had come out running "yay you are back" and went to throw their arms around the people... would it have been apropriate to push the child away and ignore it? He should have told them HOW to greet their dog. How to teach it to greet. Then the dog could have done what is hardwired into all dogs (greet leaders) in an acceptable manner. That at least would have lowered the dog's stress level.

I totally agree it is trust. BUT punishing your child/dog without them truly understanding the rules is the best way to break trust. I am a mostly positive trainer. But I am not adverse to the odd aversive. BUT if you need to apply an aversive more than 2 its not effective. AND you have to be prepared for fall out. I never use averives with my fosters. EVER.

IMO if you wouldn't expect a 3 year old child to understand, or you wouldnt' do it to 3 year old child then don't do it to your dog. The smartest dog on earth isn't anywhere near the average 3 year old human.
But they are not children, they are dogs. I had a 130 lbs Rott and he was thrilled to see my niece of 3 years of age....no way was he going to jump or bowl her over..no way. So he was taught to sit and wait and she would first make contact.

Maybe I am way out there but I did expect my 3 year old child to listen and understand CERTAIN things based on her mental capacity so I definately expected any dog to as well based on their breed and their own personal level of intelligence.

As for my fosters, well they go to homes and behave perfectly as I must ensure that they have their basics down.

Am I unrealistic - perhaps, but I have had successes so I think my formula is working...thus far
  #69  
Old November 11th, 2008, 04:43 PM
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I would love to continue however I must go. I will pick this up tomorrow as I find it very interesting.
  #70  
Old November 11th, 2008, 04:54 PM
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But they are not children, they are dogs. I had a 130 lbs Rott and he was thrilled to see my niece of 3 years of age....no way was he going to jump or bowl her over..no way. So he was taught to sit and wait and she would first make contact.
EXACTLY!! So (as I said before) they need to learn HOW to greet people. If greeting is sitting in front of someone and waiting to be petted and greeted back... that is EXACTLY what Milan should have done. But he told them no greetings no acknowledgment.... They should be allowed to be excited to see their people. He was going on about how it was bad.

No they are not children. BUT people act like they are smarter than children.. and they are not.

I have very well trained and obedient dogs (and multi titled dogs in obedience) I expect my dogs to listen and obey promptly. But that doesn't mean they are smart enough to reason. Of course dogs are smart.. lol you should see the things my dogs do. BUT if you think of what Milan does and then think about the actual learning capacity of the dog.......

What is your 'formula'?

I dont' have one as each dog comes with its own baggage. Some are so fearful they need confidence boosts. Some are so confident (as there has been NO leadership) that they need boot camp. All the principles stay the same (set the dog up for success, reward what you want, train incompatible behaviours, and be always consistent and fair) but how its applied is different to each dog.

Every dog I have had in to be worked with was going to be PTS. Only one did go that way, but he was unstable in a very medical sort of way.

What have you trained your dog(s) to do?
  #71  
Old November 12th, 2008, 01:53 AM
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Yes I will be there! I PM'd Kayla to see if she would be as well. Rox got her RNMCL title in that one trial at PADOC so we'll be in advanced now. I've decided we'll skip the SFE if they are in one or all courses, but either way we'll have a blast! I take it you'll be there? I wasn't sure if at the last trial you guys finished, were in versatility or what.

I agree 100% with being a leader but NOT relying on force or intimidation to get there. I'm all for being a kind, benevolent yet firm leader. My dogs live a structured life, more so then some, but for good reason. Roxy's issues, which you saw are odd and Hades is an APBT. So I try to keep them as in-line, under complete control with a proper balance of fun of course! LOL.

Perhaps I'm looking through rose coloured glasses with Cesar and just seeing what I want to see. I fully admit that I just don't like Brad Pattison! ROFL . I just can't stand him as a person so I nitpick at everything he does, haha. I guess it depends on your style of training as well. Someone who focuses more on positive reinforcement is going to find a much larger gap between themselves and Cesar, while someone who may not be as aversive or physical as Cesar but more "balanced", will still have differences, but they won't be as large.

I think the problem with people expecting things from their dogs isn't the difficulty of behaviours, dogs can do amazing things. It's the LACK of training and effort they put into it, that causes an unrealistic expectation. What's the saying; Rome wasn't built in a day

I find a lot of people watch these dog training shows and think if they spend twenty minutes after the show their dog will magically transform into a different dog. Something that I do agree is a problem with the general public.

Living and training with dogs is in my opinion a life long endeavor. It never ends so to head in with a time frame in mind, or a date set for it all to be done is most definitely the wrong mind set! LOL
  #72  
Old November 12th, 2008, 02:37 PM
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Just read through this thread...I find it fascinating to read people's different opinions and styles of training...a running theme I've noticed is that there is no single style/method/technique of training that will work 100% of the time for 100% of dogs. I find both shows to be entertaining, but I find CM's techniques to be most useful when dealing with agressive dogs. I'm going to comment on a few things I read in posts...

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Yes. I often tell people who wish to learn about calming signals and dog body language to watch the show with the sound off. No where can you find so many examples of stressed dogs on television.

It makes sense to me to see calming signals in a dog that, for the first time in its life, is being told that its previous pattern of behaviour is no longer acceptable. This can be a very big mindshift. I saw the same reaction in my dog-aggressive pooch Gracie the first time she was corrected properly for initiating an aggressive attack on another dog. She was like, 'Holy Crap, what just happened there, this is new, and this is different, and I'm not sure I like it..." Yes, it caused her stress, but only momentarily (she was relaxed and getting belly rubs beside the other dog a moment later) and it made an immediate impression.

(wait never seen either of them address metal stimulation before)

I can't speak for Brad, but I recently saw a CM episode involving a beagle with some OCD tendendies (crazed sniffing), and most of the episode involved ways for the family to chanel his natural need to track into productive and controlled, fun behaviour.
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As for his ability to read dogs, I saw the episode your speaking about, and I'm pretty sure he knew full well that something was going to happnen. YES he should've done something, but in his somewhat defense (as I said I don't agree with everything he does wholly either) I would think that he was waiting to see what would happen. Now should he have waited considering the dogs breed and previous behaviour? Probably not, but I THINK that's what he was doing. He knew as soon as the owners came that the dog wasn't acting "appropriately" I believe the word he used was "excited energy".

I saw this episode too, watched it twice, actually, because I found it fascinating. I think he suspected this reaction would happen and I think he did it for two reasons. 1, you can't always tell how a dog will behave until you put it in a situation that will challenge it. therefore, you can't know what the triggers are, what the warning signs might be, and therefore how to correct the situation. 2, I think he wanted to impress upon the owners the severity of the issue and their own role in creating these aggressive situations.
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Thanks Benmax .

I also sometimes am surprised that people are soooooo opposed to any consequences for bad behaviour. You wouldn't expect to be able to raise a child by only bribing and rewarding the good behaviour . I am NOT ADVOCATING any form of abuse or beating in any way, shape or form but a correction is not necessarily a bad thing.
I have to agree with this philosophy.

As I've said before, I use different techniques and approaches with each of my dogs, depending on their personalities, needs and behaviours. I am, however, consistent with my expectations of them and in maintaining my status as leader.
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  #73  
Old November 13th, 2008, 03:45 PM
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Mafia and I are both going to be there. Na I still need one leg of adv. I got 'lost' and NQ'd my last run. oh well.

You should not see so many stress behaviours if you are training. If I am working with a dog with issues and they were to do that I would know I am doing more than they can handle. I back of a bit and go a bit slower.

If your goal is to suppress vs teach then yes you WOULD expect frightened and overly stressed dogs. Animals don't learn when more than mildly stressed. This is why free shaping (a positive training method) CAN be very upsetting for some dogs.

Yes basic learning theory works on all animals. Yep some methods can work on all dogs... But the methods may need to be applied differently to different dogs. Most people I know who use much in the way of aversives are just lazy. It DOES take more effort on the handler's part to set your dog up for success. It DOES mean the handler has to be more aware and needs to be creative.

For anyone who thinks that you need to suppress dogs who are exhibiting out of control behaviour-they need to read Shaping Success. I read that and thought that dog would have had a LOT of aversives in most trainers hands.
  #74  
Old November 13th, 2008, 03:48 PM
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Just read through this thread...I find it fascinating to read people's different opinions and styles of training...a running theme I've noticed is that there is no single style/method/technique of training that will work 100% of the time for 100% of dogs. I find both shows to be entertaining, but I find CM's techniques to be most useful when dealing with agressive dogs. I'm going to comment on a few things I read in posts...







I have to agree with this philosophy.

As I've said before, I use different techniques and approaches with each of my dogs, depending on their personalities, needs and behaviours. I am, however, consistent with my expectations of them and in maintaining my status as leader.
I agree. I am always open to other philosophies and ideas as there is always room to grow and learn. Again I will take what I want and discard what I do not find useful.

This is such a good thread full of great opinions, ideas and philosophies. All very valuable.
  #75  
Old November 13th, 2008, 04:19 PM
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Yes I will be there! I PM'd Kayla to see if she would be as well. Rox got her RNMCL title in that one trial at PADOC so we'll be in advanced now. I've decided we'll skip the SFE if they are in one or all courses, but either way we'll have a blast! I take it you'll be there? I wasn't sure if at the last trial you guys finished, were in versatility or what.
See you there Cider and I finished our RAMCL, we're in 2 rounds of RX, Smudge has never trialled in anything, he is attempting one round of novice. That's a great plan. Most judges switch off their SFE's (often for the food bowls but the last trial she had both or the food bowls) so they aren't usually in every round. Seems to be in half of the advanced rounds I've ever done.

Kayla will be in Ottawa taking her exam for her training course sadly, I already bugged her more than a month ago
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  #76  
Old November 13th, 2008, 05:35 PM
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One must always learn and grow. I used to be a balanced trainer. Dropped using aversives. As a the mistakes were my fault. (if I had trained properly the first time, and proofed enough, the dog wouldn't be making mistakes) As soon as I dropped it my dogs started scoring higher.

This heel was taught with no corrections....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T-WUt6k-ac

Its a much better heel than the one on her father who I did teach with mild corrections.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 06:30 PM
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I'm not really too worried if even all four trials have a SFE. Our venture into Rally is just for fun. My eggs are two baskets when it comes to getting back into obedience and that's a) a miracle from our work with SATS or b) the CKC implements the new wild card excercise that the AKC did. The latter might be cheating and the prior wishful thinking, but what can I say, I'm a positive thinker! ROFL

We had an unfortunate coming too last night in class. I fuly admit I haven't been prepping for this trial, AT ALL! Ha ha! I didn't think that the food bowl excercise would be a trouble at all for Roxy, but turns out it is... She darts in front of me to GET AWAY from the bowls! So I'm going to have to do some last minute work with her, and I imagine I won't even be able to give her a "leave it" command in the trial for fear of her bolting madly away from it. I know the problem is I heavily reinforced moving/backing away from "leave its" as well as complete avoidance. *sigh* LOL

I'm a militant person, I've been told by more PR thinkers that I would be better off with a robot, (ROFL), I find my way of thinking with dogs leans towards the PP people I know. This is real life training, in more than high stress environments and there are times where our training is life or death.

We're mostly verbal corrections here now as my dogs are older and now that they know the rules training is a lot of fun. As it's not anytime soon Roxy will step into the ring for obedience, we do a lot of finesse work now that she really enjoys and there is absolutely no need for corrections when sprucing up a flip finish, or working on snapier hand signals.

For some reason, even though I train using mild corrections, my dogs don't "turn out" in the ring looking like an abused puppy. Every score sheet I have with Roxy, whether it be from a correction match or trial has "Nice, happy working dog!" on it, or "Great job! Having fun! That's what I like to see!". There are times when I could care less what the judge thinks if *I* feel we did an awesome job, but it just so happens the judges agree with what I feel was a good run, and they also agree when I feel we didnt'! ROFL!

I stopped using aversives for a number of things, and worked more on being creative and finding a more positive way to do things, but I still use aversives when push comes to shove. If a dog gets up during a sit stay, I WILL take that dog back by the collar to where they were left. Technically that is an aversive. It "dissuades" the dog from breaking the stay again.

As for supressing "out of control" dogs behaviours. I WISH I could Really, I understand what your saying and I've tried supressing Roxy's behaviours with some pretty harsh aversives. Maybe it works for some dogs who end up being ticking time bombs, but it didn't even work in my situation. Roxy's "out of control"/undesirable behaviours are un-suppressable, at least to my imagination!! ROFL Ultimately it would be nice to change her perception, which I've attempted in many positive ways and she has no part in it. I don't have time or the sound heart to work on the issue any differently then we are now for fun with SATS. It's not my hands that are risk. My trainer is reluctantly going along with what we're doing now and she's the only person who's hands I will risk, unfortunately that's her job describtion! LOL.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 06:42 PM
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I know dogs who have LITTERALLY been nearly killed with aversives who look happy in the ring. (you may even have seen one of the ones I am thinking of)

So how the dog looks in the ring (where no punishements can happen) doesn't mean anything. I know you are no where no way like those people But just saying.

Lots of dogs deal well with aversives. IMO they aren't necessary. LOL and I compete in obedience with working bred JRTs.
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Old November 14th, 2008, 01:07 AM
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The only reason I brought it up, is because you had said since you stopped using aversives, your dogs get higher scores. You can't get much higher then a perfect score

Also to say that I dont' really care what the judges think. If *I* think we've done a good job that's all that matters. My last time in the ring at our first Rally match, I came out and told my mother after a big hug with Roxy; I don't care if we passsed or not, I don't care what that judge thinks. That was the most perfect run I could've imagined! It just so happened that the judge agreed, literally, but my point was, at the very core, I know when we've done good, or when we haven't. I don't need a judge to tell me that! LOL

I was having a discussion with this with a trainer who in my opinion, is one of the very best when it comes to competition obedience. Reality is, the majority of dogs who compete in obedience, in novice and some in open are wild, trully uncontrollable dogs outside of the ring. Sure they may place, sure they pass with flying scores, but watch some of those dogs outside of the ring. Ring training is really fun, I love it but I'm much more impressed when my dogs pass a real life test like aggressive dogs running into our yard with a seamless recall regardless, or a sit stay "out of sight" in a public setting, those tests give me so much more respect for my dogs and our bond as a team together. Sure its' nice to get those ribbons, it's a lot of fun, but the pride I feel as I watch an owner on the street struggle to get their dogs to leave mine, or a hot dog bun on the ground? Much more then the blue ribbon

I know some of those people, lol. E-collar freaks. Dog doesn't sit in half a second, zap. Dog looks at another dog, zap. I don't know if I would say they were near death, although I know some dogs can develop heart issues, but it definitely isn't the way I want to work with my dogs who are pets first, team mates second.

If I were to rid myself of aversives, I'd literally be screwed. That would mean ostracizing my dogs for undesirable behaviours is out of use. Ostracizing is HUGE for undesirable household behaviours here. It doesn't require physical force of any kind, not even verbal correction, but it does make an impact on my dogs and "repels" them from doing that behaviour again.

How do you manage no aversives with JRT's? You do absolutely nothing when they perform unwanted behaviours? Or every absolute situation, including household you train for?

I've honestly never heard of someone not using aversives at all! LOL. I thought everyone did in one way or another, whether it be ignoring a dog, verbal corrections, I suppose even direct eye contact for some dogs (including one of mine) could be considered an aversive as he will most definitely change his behaviour with an "evil eye stare". LOL.
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Old November 14th, 2008, 09:25 AM
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This heel was taught with no corrections....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T-WUt6k-ac

Its a much better heel than the one on her father who I did teach with mild corrections.
I have to say that is one d@mn pretty heel!

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How do you manage no aversives with JRT's? You do absolutely nothing when they perform unwanted behaviours? Or every absolute situation, including household you train for?

I've honestly never heard of someone not using aversives at all! LOL. I thought everyone did in one way or another, whether it be ignoring a dog, verbal corrections, I suppose even direct eye contact for some dogs (including one of mine) could be considered an aversive as he will most definitely change his behaviour with an "evil eye stare". LOL.
I'm curious to hear the answer to this question too...because I would put "moving the dog back into position with my hands" or "making an "Ah-ah!" noise" etc. into the "adversives" category as well, if by "adversive" you mean "negative".

We used a prong collar, with great success, when initially working with our oldest to deal with serious dog aggression (what CM would call a "red zone case". Now, we use her regular flat nylong collar and a verbal distraction or a tap on the back is enough to "snap her out of it" when/if she starts to fixate on a strange dog and get her attention back on me/look to me for leadership. I would condider all these techniques adversives, granted on different scales. She gets ample praise for attending to me and keeping the leash loose when in these situations, which I know are still challenging for her.
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Riley and Molly
  #81  
Old November 14th, 2008, 09:42 AM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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No I was thinking of the people who 'hang' their dogs by the choke AKA some of the Kohler stuff.

Now as to how there are basically no aversives... If a situation breaks out (aka dog fight) then we are into management and not training. In those situations just about anything goes to stop the situation.

As for training. Ok an example.

Kaiden would lag when heeling. I had been doing classes for ever I thought he should know heel by now. Heck at times he was heeling well. So I gave little leash pops. And still he would lag.

As an experiment I stopped correcting and just ignored the lagging and c/t when he was in heel. That fixed it.

Another example was that Kaiden would anticipate the down in the out of sight sit stays (for open obedience) I tried all sorts of things. Even tried an e collar. (he screamed on 2.. and shook.. never again) I tried having people gently correct him by putting him back in a sit (in case me coming back to put him in a sit was rewarding) Nada... no improvement.

So I dropped the corrections and when back to the clicker. He has never gone down in the sit in a match or trial since.

99.9% of the time if the dog is failing its the trainers fault. Either the dog doesn't understand fully, is confused due to conflicting signals, or simply lacks proofing and sufficient reward history... I think it is mean to then correct using aversives.

If your dog is ignoring you and you correct him/her using aversives. If the dog truly understands the job then you should not have to correct again for that issue for a very long time. If you are correcting often (say once a training session or once every few) then IMO your dog is not understanding the exercise and you should not be correcting.

I have a dog who has an amazing stay in obedience. But we have issues at times with our stay in agility. Self control is an ongoing battle. I do correct her. I put her away. I remove what she wants. I don't yell, yank on her leash etc. (actually yelling means nothing to her.. I can scream bad dog and she wiggles and comes running lol)

Lets say I have a foster dog who has a bite history. The dog has learned that when its uncomfortable with the situation it can bite and that backs the person off. I don't want the dog MORE uncomfortable with the situation. So lets say the dog is food possessive. I show the dog in small steps that letting humans take food from you is a good thing. If I was to use force and intimidation I could likely get the dog to let me have the items. BUT JRTs escalate to aggression and pain (its bred into them.. you are in a hole facing a fox/coon/badger its likely going to be fighting back. A dog who runs from aggression/pain will never make a good hunter) So the moment someone who is not intimidating enough comes along the dog will bite. I want the dog to respect all humans.. not just the big and scary ones.

Oh and as for scores. I have yet to have a perfect score in obed. And there has never been a perfect score handed out at any obed trials I have been too.
  #82  
Old November 14th, 2008, 09:48 AM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
I have to say that is one d@mn pretty heel!

Thanks! LOL I put that on youtube specifically for another forum as I was tired of people claiming they could teach a fantastic heel and my methods wouldn't

IMO my most impressive trick is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCgiUWLTa8
If your horse won't lie down its not like you can push them down! Velvet will be in an upcoming TV show where they needed a horse to die on command (hence the cue is a pointing whip.. no verbals allowed) AND horses are prey animals they don't like being vulnerable in new/busy places. It takes a lot of trust to have a horse lie down from a distant cue on a busy set.
  #83  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:26 AM
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bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
No I was thinking of the people who 'hang' their dogs by the choke AKA some of the Kohler stuff.

That's horrendous. And certainly not the proper way to use a collar.

Now as to how there are basically no aversives... If a situation breaks out (aka dog fight) then we are into management and not training. In those situations just about anything goes to stop the situation.

Ok, so it seems like you're making a distinction between training (i.e. teaching a specific behaviour/task/outcome that you want your dog to perform reliably on command) and behaviour management (i.e. stopping unwanted behaviours that the dog is self-initiating)

As for training. Ok an example.

Kaiden would lag when heeling. I had been doing classes for ever I thought he should know heel by now. Heck at times he was heeling well. So I gave little leash pops. And still he would lag.

As an experiment I stopped correcting and just ignored the lagging and c/t when he was in heel. That fixed it.

Another example was that Kaiden would anticipate the down in the out of sight sit stays (for open obedience) I tried all sorts of things. Even tried an e collar. (he screamed on 2.. and shook.. never again) I tried having people gently correct him by putting him back in a sit (in case me coming back to put him in a sit was rewarding) Nada... no improvement.

So I dropped the corrections and when back to the clicker. He has never gone down in the sit in a match or trial since.

This makes sense to me and I have no argument whatsoever. Our dogs, when doing obedience, work for praise and occasionally treats (especially when they're younger) and I have no problem with using either to polish up a particular command.

99.9% of the time if the dog is failing its the trainers fault. Either the dog doesn't understand fully, is confused due to conflicting signals, or simply lacks proofing and sufficient reward history... I think it is mean to then correct using aversives.

I agree with this as well. I know that my dogs will falter a bit/be sloppy with obedience work if my own signals (body/hand/voice) are not crystal clear. I cannot expect them to perform up to par if my own performance is lacking.

If your dog is ignoring you and you correct him/her using aversives. If the dog truly understands the job then you should not have to correct again for that issue for a very long time. If you are correcting often (say once a training session or once every few) then IMO your dog is not understanding the exercise and you should not be correcting.

Ok, fair enough. So how do you get to the point where task is completed properly? It seems like you're using mainly clicker training to acheive this?

I have a dog who has an amazing stay in obedience. But we have issues at times with our stay in agility. Self control is an ongoing battle. I do correct her. I put her away. I remove what she wants. I don't yell, yank on her leash etc. (actually yelling means nothing to her.. I can scream bad dog and she wiggles and comes running lol)

Yeah, our GSD gets all wiggly and waggy and silly, no matter what tone of voice you're using, even since she was a pup there was never any point in raising your voice to her...

Lets say I have a foster dog who has a bite history. The dog has learned that when its uncomfortable with the situation it can bite and that backs the person off. I don't want the dog MORE uncomfortable with the situation. So lets say the dog is food possessive. I show the dog in small steps that letting humans take food from you is a good thing.

Are you rewarding, then, for desireable behaviours (ie treating/praise?) I would agree to this too. That said, if a dog were to snap at me or anyone else over food I would likely be inclined to correct and not ignore that behaviour. Some things (biting/snapping) are simply inexcusable in my books and I want to make that very clear from the get-go. Ample praise for good, ignore mild infractions if they are not hurting anyone, correct for dangerous behaviour...that's pretty much my scale
I guess I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you've said here, and your approaches to training. I personally don't feel uncomfortable or that I'm coming across as threatening to a dog if I give its back a tap or its leash a little tug to get its attention focused back to the task I've given it to do.

My question would be, though, if you're dealing with an aggressive, reactive dog, how do you manage that with only +ve R? Scenario...you're walking a reactive dog, and it sees another dog across the street. It is completely focused on the other dog (and therefore posturing already) and is not "hearing" verbal commands to "watch"/"sit" etc. What do you do? You've said that you're in management mode for dog fights...what do you do to prevent them in an aggressive dog?
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Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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Riley and Molly
  #84  
Old November 14th, 2008, 11:56 AM
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I would never yell or correct a dog who bites. Dogs aggress out of fear. Increase the fear and you make the problem bigger. You may suppress the behaviour for a while but you are not fixing the over all problem. For example if you manage to scare the dog into not snapping/biting. What happens when the dog then has a child to deal with. The dog knows its bigger/stronger than the child.

On the other hand I would address the real issue and fix that. Then you don't have to worry about the biting.

Long story condensed... Had a foster pup. Animal control picked him up and deemed him aggressive. Joey was a 6 month old JRT. As he was deemed aggressive the JRTRO sent him to me. He was in no way aggressive. He was a very happy drivey JRT. You could take food/toys from him. He had no quarding issues, he loved strangers, you could come up behind him and scoop him up. He was a delightful pup. He got adopted by a family that was incrediabley unsuitable. They go for training but (as I know the person they went too) they didn't follow directions, the argued etc etc. I get him back 2 year later. Now Joey has bitten badly, numerous times. He was so aggressive the daughter couldn't even go in her room if he was on her bed. He was extremely reactive to strangers.

First off his issues were created by stupid people. Second of all I don't want this dog thinking the only reason he shouldn't bite is if the people are too scary to take on.

So he entered boot camp. He had to live in a crate for a while and work for every thing he got. He had to down stay in his crate for his morning meal, he had to come, down, off, sit, stay for the remainder of his meals. The rest of my family ignored him.

Now this did a few things. By being in a crate he couldn't practice guarding furniture and be reinforced for aggressive behaviour. By having to work for all things he learned that I owned everything-not him. I taught him that people taking stuff away from you is a great thing. (start off with a very low value toy take it away and either give a better one, or return it with a smear of cheese or peanut butter.. gradually increase the value of the toys until he is excited to have you take the item)

Once he was good I had my child hand feed him some food for sits, downs etc etc. (My son was 7. He is very dog savvy. He was the child handler of the year for the JRTCC and competes in AAC agility and dockdogs.)

Then I had friends from school come over (went back to school) I told them to ignore him, not even make eye contact. I gave them a hand full of high value treats. Then I let him out of his crate. He barked and acted all spooked with his hackles up. But as no one made any threatening jestures (the previous owners had taught him, by correcting him with leash pops and yelling any time he barked at people, that strangers meant bad things.. we need to reverse it) As soon as he settled down I had them dribble the fun treats.

It took a few sessions and soon he was quite happy to have strangers show up in the house.

I then took him to a JRT trial. Just to hang out. I took him around other people. He growled and snapped at someone. MY fault. I had pushed him too soon. (we live on a farm so its hard to meet people walking in public) He had learned that strangers in our home were just fine, but still didn't like strangers outside the home) I simply removed him from the area and we walked where it wasn't so crowded and he did fine. If I had corrected him, it only would have reinforced that people are nasty and made the problem worse.

I didn't have the time to work with him in public places (school, farm, family) but he was now to the point where he could go to another foster home. They have kept working with him (they live in a city) and he is doing great! They have decided to adopt him (yay for happy endings)

I have many more stories like that one. Joey was the worst has he had done some serious damage to the father of the house on more than one occasion. He was the kind of dog who met aggression with aggression.
  #85  
Old November 14th, 2008, 12:21 PM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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I realized there are some who don't understand some termonology (this is common)

Ignoring is not an aversive. You are not adding something the dog dislikes. You are removing something the dog does like (social interaction).

I mainly use R+ which is adding something the dog likes. A treat, a toy, pee on a post (for my stud dog.. very rewarding), a scratch etc. I do use P- at times. That is negative punishment.. which is taking away something the dog likes. So ignoring, time outs etc.

I never use P- which is the idea behind shock training and the ear pinch of the forced retrieve. And other than in very very very rare cases do I use P+ where you add something the dog does not like.

There can be consequences but they are not the kind that are likely to suppress.
  #86  
Old November 14th, 2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
I would never yell or correct a dog who bites. Dogs aggress out of fear.

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree that this is the source of all agression, unless you consider "fear that my status as ruler of the universe might maybe, possibly, be threatened" a true fear. A dog who's afraid of its food being taken away because it was previously starved, or afraid of being hurt by a human or other dog, fine, I agree. You don't want to add fear to a fearful situation, and you want to help the dog relearn that humans/dogs/whatever don't have to be triggers for fear.

I'm talking about a dog who, upon glimpsing another dog, immediately begins to stiffen and posture into what is undeniably a dominant posture. Who, if in proximity to another dog, will attack furiously and without any provocation or challenge whatsoever from the other dog. What would you do with this?



Long story condensed... Had a foster pup. Animal control picked him up and deemed him aggressive. Joey was a 6 month old JRT. As he was deemed aggressive the JRTRO sent him to me. He was in no way aggressive. He was a very happy drivey JRT. You could take food/toys from him. He had no quarding issues, he loved strangers, you could come up behind him and scoop him up. He was a delightful pup. He got adopted by a family that was incrediabley unsuitable. They go for training but (as I know the person they went too) they didn't follow directions, the argued etc etc. I get him back 2 year later. Now Joey has bitten badly, numerous times. He was so aggressive the daughter couldn't even go in her room if he was on her bed. He was extremely reactive to strangers.

This is also a different situation from the one I just described. The one you have here is an obvious result of human ignorance and fault, not true aggression.

First off his issues were created by stupid people. Second of all I don't want this dog thinking the only reason he shouldn't bite is if the people are too scary to take on.

Agreed. Strong, consistent leadership and desensitization was what was needed. (as you described)
We agree on many points here, and maybe what I'm trying to address is a really specific type of situation/behaviour issue, but I'm honestly interested in other solutions that what we're using right now. Not because they're not working, mind you, but because I like to have lots of stuff in my toolbox.
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Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #87  
Old November 14th, 2008, 01:58 PM
bluestar bluestar is offline
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Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
I guess I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you've said here, and your approaches to training. I personally don't feel uncomfortable or that I'm coming across as threatening to a dog if I give its back a tap or its leash a little tug to get its attention focused back to the task I've given it to do.

My question would be, though, if you're dealing with an aggressive, reactive dog, how do you manage that with only +ve R? Scenario...you're walking a reactive dog, and it sees another dog across the street. It is completely focused on the other dog (and therefore posturing already) and is not "hearing" verbal commands to "watch"/"sit" etc. What do you do? You've said that you're in management mode for dog fights...what do you do to prevent them in an aggressive dog?

I'd be very curious to see how this would be handled. Our beagle has a habit of reacting to a couple of other aggressive dogs whenever he lays eyes on them while on-leash. I've been working with him to avoid other dogs while walking by putting him in a sit and treating until the other dog passes. But there are 2 dogs in the neighbourhood where this has failed totally. When he sees these 2 dogs he will go into a posture and begin to lunge and howl at the other dog. Failing being able to reach them he will bite at whatever is closest, usually bushes or his leash. He has even grabbed my leg once while going for his leash, but immediately let go. Lately, he has even lunged at my other dog when he is in this mode although I make sure he is far enough away not to reach him. Corrections would have no effect on this dog as he completely ignores them once he red-zones.

This dog is generally a very submissive dog. His first reaction to meeting someone is to rollover on his back for a bellyrub. He has no food aggression, can be picked up and held by anyone without an issue, will give up toys and food no problem. He is not reactive to most other dogs. He will ignore any dog that is barking at him out of fear or any dog that is walking by that is ignoring him. He will generally approach another dog for a quick butt-sniff and then find another scent of interest. When off-leash at a park and trouble starts, with the first sign of growling, his reaction is to wander off to find another scent. The only time he reacts to a dog is while on-leash with an aggressive dog that is posturing at him. The dogs he has reacted too we have been told by their owners and other owners in the neighbourhood that those dogs do not get along with other dogs. Right now or only course is working on the ignoring and turning the other way when we see those dogs.
  #88  
Old November 14th, 2008, 02:25 PM
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The dog in my description will act aggressively even towards dogs who are NOT acting aggressively or in any way challenging her.

If yours is reacting to only a handful of jerks and is generally fine with 99% of other dogs, I can more or less understand her reaction and I think you're doing the right thing by simply removing her from the situation.
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Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #89  
Old November 14th, 2008, 02:50 PM
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Dekka Dekka is offline
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THe dog in that clip.. and the one in my avatar is very dog reactive. She will even aggress to non threatening dogs. She is a work in progress. And yes its all fear. She is fine with dogs she knows well.

She freezes and her posture is all 'dominant'. The issue is my truly alpha male never does that. The alpha dog is like the 'cool' kid in HS. They know they are dabomb and don't go around strutting. Its those that are NOT quite the cool kids that have to act all nasty and strut around. A truly alpha dog (or horse or person...) is not reactive. The are ultra confident and in control. A dominant dog DOES NOT aggress to non threats.

That said Dekka competes in agility, rally, dock dogs, JRT trials and obedience where she must be around other dogs. I do not correct her. That would destroy trust. She is fearful, I teach her that I will protect her. She does not need to protect us. I teach her to focus on me.
  #90  
Old November 14th, 2008, 02:53 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Dekka you are starting to sound like Caeser!
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