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  #31  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
Oh ok. I work with shelters all the time as I run a rescue. No staff at any shelter anywhere are happy with surrenders, that's just a fact. Before or after the draft Bill, same thing. Same as rescues. Has nothing to do with Pitbulls. Or with city staff specifically.

And surrenders, especially to be euthanized, are more upsetting. For example if I had a dog in my rescue that I decided to euthanize, I would take it to a vet and euthanize it. I would not surrender it to a shelter.
Well, like I said, I wouldn't be looking for happy.

This isn't just a straight forward family pet thing. There was a bite, not the first apparently, it was reported to the police by hospital staff. Public Health was contacted. This was a foster/last chance rescue. Resources are interesting things. Some of us have them some of us don't. The by-laws relied upon for the quaretine were City of Toronto By-Laws. That makes them involved. I really don't see why Animal Services would question why thier services were being utilized.
  #32  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:39 PM
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and then there is the question of liability, if this dog did any damage to anyone else or someone elses animal, it could be argued that Mastiff knew of the potential for danger and didn't do enough about it. Small claims court, up to 10,000. $50. bucks. to get the ball rolling...
  #33  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:42 PM
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I think everyone has good points, but I'm wondering if it's a case of someone jumping to the conclusion of, "Here we go with another one". Absolutely, people shouldn't jump to conclusions, and they should keep thier negative feelings to themselves. However, people are human, and I think that at some point, they get to the point where they have a hard time hiding thier feelings. I've heard that pitbull surrenders has gone up all over the place, and I know myself, personally, find that disturbing. You are supposed to get an animal, and keep it, because you love it. The animal loves you unconditionally, but you dump it when things get difficult? (I'm way over-simplifying here, but I think most understand what I'm saying.) That's in no way a reflection on Mastiff. And it's unfortunate that, IMHO, the attitude she got was a reflection of current circumstances. Especially since Mastiff should be commended for what I think (in the short time I've known you) was a very hard decision, but probably a right one.
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  #34  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:46 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastifflover
if this dog bit a child and caused serious damage then I would be called irresponsible knowing that I have a dog that would bite unprevoked.
Regardless of the issue we're discussing here, this is the MOST important statement. This is responsible ownership! She made an educated decision and went with it.
*IF* she had kept George (knowing that he bites when unprovoked)and he bit a child you guys would be singing a different tune.
  #35  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:50 PM
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Thanks guys I really appreciate the support and if I did not live in the downtown core and lived in a rural area I would have kept him. I do not and will never have 2 legged kids. I prefer the furbabies. George seemed to trust me and Buddy and we were starting to get attatched to him and that is why I did take him for the final 2 days at Animal services because otherwise it would have been another week till I could do anything. But it was just to risky and financially I could not withstand a lawsuit.
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  #36  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:51 PM
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People who work in shelters or in rescue may see things differently. I read all the posts, she adopted the dog Nov.1 and he bit her friend on Nov.1, she reported the bite, and the dog was quarantined. You can quarantine in your house. You can also euthanize the dog at your own vet when the quarantine is up. Whether it was Mastifflover or anyone else, shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized. Not picking on her, trying to show the side of the staff, and my friend was working at that shelter when the dog was surrendered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
Well, like I said, I wouldn't be looking for happy.

This isn't just a straight forward family pet thing. There was a bite, not the first apparently, it was reported to the police by hospital staff. Public Health was contacted. This was a foster/last chance rescue. Resources are interesting things. Some of us have them some of us don't. The by-laws relied upon for the quaretine were City of Toronto By-Laws. That makes them involved. I really don't see why Animal Services would question why thier services were being utilized.
  #37  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:53 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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And LL1, there are just something's that people don't have to explain. She maybe had presonal reasons for that decision and in no way gives anyone the right to assume anything. Do you know what her job is? Hours? Lifestyle? Mental strength? I don't think so, and maybe if you and the staff did then you MIGHT have the ability to assume why things were handeled the way there were.
  #38  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:55 PM
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I'm not asking her to explain anything. Taking shots at the shelter staff was unfair in my opinion so I pointed it out to try and explain why they may have been cold.
  #39  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:57 PM
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I totally agree that every dog deserves a forever home and you don't quit when the going gets tough. But in this particular sitch, the dog's behaviour was dangerous.

I personally would not surrender my guy but I am in an ideal situation. Own home, no kids living at home, no other animals, small backyard, decent job, lots of support from my partner, he works nights, I work days, and my dog was a puppy when I got him, so no unknown history. No rehab required.

As I said I really think Michael Bryant has created a climate that almost guarantees an increase in surrenders and I can understand why someone would succumb and surrender thier pitbull. I'm not going to repeat the reasons why. Its posted previously.
  #40  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:59 PM
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Well maybe their attitudes are the reason that so many people just dump their animals, not even bothering to go to shelters. :sad:

Mastifflover was speaking about her own personal trip to the shelter, I doubt that she was trying to belittle the entire operation. She received the cold shoulder while there and shared that.

ADDED:
I too would take the steps that Mastiff took if I felt that the dog was dangerous and posed a threat to citizens and children. If the dog bites UNPROVOKED then there's a serious situation there, shelter staff should understand that.
By keeping the dog alive and in a kennel at home and a muzzle outside with no chance of enjoying life because he bite even when UNPROVOKED.... does that improve the quality of the dog's life. Nope, doubt it. Unfortunately dogs in this situation might be better off. :sad:
  #41  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:01 PM
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Just so we have the facts straight I adopted George on the 30th he bit on the 1st. I had George till late Saturday afternoon when a friend lent me a car to take him to AS. I do not have a vehicle and would have had to wait another week to take him to my vet and I was not willing to take the chance. This also meant that I could not take my dog to the park to run because everyone is deaf when you tell them not to pat the dog and to leave him alone even when on a leash even though you tell them he will bite. Some people are just stupid and do not listen and then freak if your dog bites even though they have been warned. My friend who was bitten her mom works as a lead cruelty investigator and she is not ignorant and knew all about George and we were both shocked when he was playing and turned around a bit her hard enough to require 9 stitches. Could you imagine the damage that a child would have sustained. That is the last time I am going to reply to this thread. I felt awful leaving George but I had to do what was best for everyone and I am sorry but safety first.
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  #42  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:08 PM
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IMHO, You did the right thing. I don't think any of us fighting the proposed BSL feel that the dangerousness of a dog no matter what the breed should be ignored.
  #43  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
IMHO, You did the right thing. I don't think any of us fighting the proposed BSL feel that the dangerousness of a dog no matter what the breed should be ignored.
I think that regardless of the breed ANY dangerous dog must be dealt with. If more people were as responsible as Mastifflover we would not even be in this BSL fight for our dogs!
  #44  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:12 PM
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I don't disagree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammiec
I think that regardless of the breed ANY dangerous dog must be dealt with.
  #45  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized. Not picking on her, trying to show the side of the staff, and my friend was working at that shelter when the dog was surrendered.

alone in a cage in a noisy shelter....what? no staff at the shelter to interact with the dog? ok, so the animals are left alone in the cages making noise, the staff hate when people brings animals in...what exactly do animal services staff want to do?
  #46  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:22 PM
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*sigh* I think this is getting a little more heated than necessary...

Let me try and present both sides.

Mastiff feels bothered by the fact that she made a tough decision, one that was hard for her to come to. That being said, given the history of the dog, and the danger it posed, she felt that she was being responsible by doing what she did. When Mastiff took the dog in after this consideration and at (from previous threads) with a certain amount of heart-ache, she didn't need to be made to feel worse about her decision.

What LL1 is saying is that the people there are not normally "icy" or "cold", but in this situation, were bothered by a dog being surrendered. LL1 also has a personal stake in this as they know people who work at that particular shelter. In my opinion, I think it was actually a case of "another dog being surrendered", perhaps feeling a little jaded from seeing this time and again, and probably seeing more than thier share of pitbulls. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just saying that it's understandable.

Now, let's all just get along and go for ice cream...
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  #47  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:29 PM
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I already posted what was an option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
alone in a cage in a noisy shelter....what? no staff at the shelter to interact with the dog? ok, so the animals are left alone in the cages making noise, the staff hate when people brings animals in...what exactly do animal services staff want to do?
  #48  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:31 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Schwinn, good post.. but your comment about pit bulls I don't understand. This dog is not a pit bull.
  #49  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:31 PM
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Thanks for saying that - and I am not heated about it, just showing how rescues and shelter staff would view situations like this. This was not strictly a surrender, this was a surrender with the dog to be euthanized.

I have maybe a different view as I do run a rescue and deal with shelters regularly. I also know what is required with a quarantine,and I know how most rescues would have handled this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwinn
*sigh* I think this is getting a little more heated than necessary...


What LL1 is saying is that the people there are not normally "icy" or "cold", but in this situation, were bothered by a dog being surrendered. LL1 also has a personal stake in this as they know people who work at that particular shelter. In my opinion, I think it was actually a case of "another dog being surrendered", perhaps feeling a little jaded from seeing this time and again, and probably seeing more than thier share of pitbulls. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just saying that it's understandable.
  #50  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammiec
Schwinn, good post.. but your comment about pit bulls I don't understand. This dog is not a pit bull.
Oh...um...oops...colour me confused. I thought it was...okay, just go with everything else I said, then!
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  #51  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:35 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
I have maybe a different view as I do run a rescue and deal with shelters regularly. I also know what is required with a quarantine,and I know how most rescues would have handled this.
She's not a rescue nor a foster. The dog was fully surrendered to her, it was her decision. At this point there is no rescue involved anymore.
  #52  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:38 PM
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I know that. She initially said she was fostering, then she said she adopted him.
  #53  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:41 PM
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Just close this thread. everything has been said. Hopefully no one walks away with hard feelings. Both have good points. Both are on different sides of the fence. One has to deal directly with PTS and the other has experience with workers in these enviroments. No ones wrong.

Forget the icecream lets go for a beer!
  #54  
Old November 11th, 2004, 11:44 AM
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Question To LL1. Yes, I've heard THS thinks S/N is 'cruel'-?

If some of the THS adoptables end up in puppymills, will t-He-y think that's less cruel? :sad:

THS has provided some cash-back incentives to S/N. You adopt, do S/N & get some cash back. I'm not sure if this was stopped during 'Take Lawyer to Lunch/Dinner/Breakfast Month". (Bandit decision & pre-trial work)
Maybe if people didn't insist on it, they just didn't get $$ back. Weird & weirder are the ways of THS. They did say something on the web site about not funding, or maybe not funding in the future-?

I have never been able to understand why THS "management" thinks it's 'Cruel'. Most dog on human bites come from young intact male dogs. They have about 3 times the amount of testosterone racing thru them during puberty than an intact adult male dog does. Bites from poorly socialized, or just hormonal females who have just had puppies are up there too. (most recent Neo-Mastiff attack on grandaughter of owner.) My Vet's take on it is, "They don't Know that they are neutered or spayed. They don't suffer angst about not reproducing."
  #55  
Old November 11th, 2004, 11:48 AM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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This was not the Toronto Humane Society that we're talking about! There are other city run shelters (pounds) that take dogs in as well.
  #56  
Old November 11th, 2004, 11:53 AM
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LL1 I dont know if it is because I said I did not like the treatment at AS but what is your problem if I kept him and he bit a child you would be all over me for that so just let it go. Yes I was going to foster and then it turned out that I was his last chance so they turned him over to me, the rescue was going to put him down if I did not take him. He was unplaceable due to his history and a previous bite. So I did adopt him. I was willing to try and if that is not good enough for you too bad. I don't know if you think I am young and don't know anything but I am probably older than you in fact I probably had dogs before you were born. So just stop attacking me and come right out and say what your problem is. I am not someone who is just going to slink away by trying to shame me into feeling bad. I felt bad enough about George and you are not making me feel worse I am not accountable to you. By the way you may want to start attacking twinmommy she has to probably put her family pet to sleep for aggression issues. Even though this is incredibly hard on her and not something she wants to do, but has her children to consider. But since you seem to have all the answers as to why a dog should not be pts you should offer to give this dog a home then she won't have to do one of the hardest things.

By the way...
It was a Dogue and the grandmother is not a reputable breeder. Then again what was a child doing in a kennel by herself. Yes I am all for spay and neuter it is healthier and brings aggression way down in those teenagers.
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  #57  
Old November 11th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Akeeter Akeeter is offline
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Question Actually Sammi, we were discussing all of them on page 1.

I hadn't gotten back to comment on LL1's mention of THS's strange aversion to Spay /Neuter.

( lived in Toronto for 47 years. There are SPCA shelters in Toronto & most of the old boroughs, as well as Toronto Animal Control, which took over from THS when THS lost the contract for it.) Only THS has 'ethical problems' with S/N.
  #58  
Old November 11th, 2004, 12:48 PM
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Mastifflover I do not have a problem and did not attack you. When you post on a public board you have to know people will not always agree with you, and will point out other options available and other opinions.
  #59  
Old November 11th, 2004, 12:52 PM
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Well what other option was there turn him over and ignore the bites and not tell a rescue and let them deal with it. I do not expect people to agree with me on everything I dont agree with everybody all the time. But you still have not given one option on what you think I should have done. Are you willing to take him?
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  #60  
Old November 11th, 2004, 02:37 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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I already posted one option - shown below. Did you want more options posted?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
You can quarantine in your house. You can also euthanize the dog at your own vet when the quarantine is up. Whether it was Mastifflover or anyone else, shelter staff and rescue people no doubt would wonder why someone would surrender the dog to live it's last 3 days alone in a cage in a noisy shelter before being euthanized.
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