Cat's teeth removed - won't eat

[meow]

sugarmom: yes my vet admitted he doesnt know about holistic health. so do you think wellness turkey and beef/chicken would be good choices? what about wysong uretic? I think it only comes dry but if i soak it in water and blenderize it, it could make it a liquid. (wouldn't know how much food to water ration though).

Ok, Simba's USG was 1.013 and cloudy on 1/17/09

I am putting the food thru a strainer after i blend it and i am amazed at all the little hunks it gets out. thanks for that tidbit!

[meow]

Ph of urine was 5.5 lowest end of normal
USG: 1.013 - low
appearance: cloudy
Protein: negative
the rest of the test looks normal

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by meow

so do you think wellness turkey and beef/chicken would be good choices?

Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.

Originally Posted by meow

what about wysong uretic?

Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you.

[Jim Hall]

i just have to say, Sugarcat you are incredible!!! We are getting such an education here


Hows kitty doing meow?

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by meow

kitty threw up last night and missed the litter box by 6" this morning.

Gross question I know but...What did the vomit consist of and what colour was it? mostly water? food? hairball? clear/yellow/white/brown?

Has she pooped recently? Alot of kidney cats that are constipated will throw up from the strain of trying to poop.

I know it's not always possible but if you see her heading for the litterbox, you could remove the cone long enough for her to do her business, then put it back on, it will give her a better frame of mind going to use the box & going outside the box hopefully won't become a habit cuz it's easier.

Originally Posted by meow

Ph of urine was 5.5 lowest end of normal
USG: 1.013 - low
appearance: cloudy
Protein: negative
the rest of the test looks normal

Did they do a urine culture? As SCM mentions the cloudyness is not normal. The normal range on lab tests for ph is 5.5 - 7 ideally it should be 6-6.5
With the ph being low & the cloudyness there could be infection or crystals or something else in there

What colour was it? That should be listed near appearance.

Have you set up to measure how much water she is drinking? - this will be important to your vet in determining if she should start fluid therapy.

The USG is alarmingly low - does any of the reports you have list the cat being on IV fluids other than during the actual surgery? During the 2 week stay was she on IV fluids? On the invoice/Drs notes it would be listed as LRS or Lactated Ringers Solution.

In CRF cats the USG will probably be between 1.008 and 1.012, my grrl's last USG test showed higher (better) than that even though she was at the time on twice weekly fluids. Once a cat goes on regular fluid therapy the USG is not as reliable a measure.

On the most recent blood test was there a T4 or Tetraiodothyronine T4 amount tested? If so what is the number?

Other causes of low USG include Hyperthyroid, Diabetes, Liver disease, kidney infections, the use of corticosteroids such as prednisone and prednisolone.

[meow]

Thank you. I have to go to work and can't look it up now but will post later. YES she was on IV for the 2 weeks he held her hostage! God only knows what else happened to her. Yes she has pooped and the poop looked normal considering the food change.

urine

appearance: cloudy
Color: yellow

[meow]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.



Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you.

thank you. how did you learn all this? i am amazed.

[meow]

Growler: she puked right after i tube fed her. it was 100% food puke. ( i tube feed her over 20-30 minutes so i didn't go too fast but perhaps the volume of food was too much).no hairballs..she isn't grooming herself b/c she has a cone on her head most of the time. when i am RIGHT THERE with her i take it off and she it so happy to sleep with it off that she curls up to sleep comfortably.. My new vet is helping me get a 2nd dentist opinion from a major university dental chairman. We are suspicious that she didn't even need this surgery at all. Then i find out after the fact the "surgeon" never did a residency in dentistry. he was grandfathered in. He has listed himself as a member of a certain medical association which my new vet says he isn't a member of, which is misrepresentation. Whatever happened to her there cause this kidney problem. I feel soooooo guilty. I am her mom and I took her to that monster. I can tell you if i get a 2nd opinion from a board certified dentist who did a residency in dentristy that none of this was needed, the *&^%%$$((&^ is gonna hit the fan! I am sooooooooo mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simba acts uncomfortable with the cone and tube in her. She doesn't act like she is in pain. She refuses to eat anything and what concerns me the most is that she prefers to climb on my lap and be tube fed, versus eating! What do I do? I give her lots of pets and love when i am not tube feeding her so it is not like she wants to be tube fed for the love. I have tried feeding her every brand of food, good, bad and indifferent in every flavor JUST to get her to eat. she won't. she drinks with her mouth and she "bit" a string with her mouth when i was shaking it for her to play with. so i don't think she is having mouth soreness (it is now 4.5 weeks since surgery). What do I do??? Will she ever eat??? I keep telling her in a loving way that as soon as she eats we can take the tube and cone out and she can be "free." It isn't working.

I am really glad I found this website. I KNEW this idiot holding her hostage for 2 weeks was BAD but i had no where to turn. Then the thing with putting her in a cage was HORRIBLE! I kept thinking he was a board certified dentist who knew what he was doing and my gut said it wasn't right. i am glad everyone here was honest with me. I could ball my eyes out all day and night over this but I act happy around kitty and tell her i love her and i am trying to help her and she will get better. But inside i feel SICK!

Oh she is still on Baytril about 20 mg's per day because the idiot said she has a terrible infection on the bone of her mouth. now we don't even know if that is true but we don't want to stop it til we KNOW from a dentist that she needs it or not. The new vet was gonna keep her on it for 6 weeks, assuming she really did have a done infection in her mouth. so she should be coming to an end soon. i give her acidophlis (sp?) mixed into her food.

[chico2]

OMG meow,what was the reason given by this"cat-dentist"you not being able to visit her for 2 weeks??
I really do not know what the norm is,I've only had one cat who had ONE tooth pulled and he came home right away.
I believe your dentist-vet,kept her doped up for a while because of the pain she obviously must have had.
About the infection in her bone,I am sure even your regular vet could determine if there is one.

Also,try to be strong for Simba,your anger,sadness and guilt-feelings can tear you apart.
You are not the guilty party here,you love your little Simba,your devotion to her is very obvious,she will soon eat on her own.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by meow

she isn't grooming herself b/c she has a cone on her head most of the time. when i am RIGHT THERE with her i take it off and she it so happy to sleep with it off that she curls up to sleep comfortably..

Can you try leaving the cone off for longer periods of time? Is there something she does that warrants keeping it on? I ask because the 3 times I was tube-feeding a cat, they never needed the cone on past the initial couple of days. If she isn't bothering the tube, perhaps she would be better off without the cone on?

Originally Posted by meow

Oh she is still on Baytril about 20 mg's per day .

Antibiotics can have a detrimental affect on a cat's appetite, so it might be a good idea to find out if she really needs to be on the Baytril still. The probiotics are a good idea.

[meow]

Sugar: I take the cone off only when she is right there with me b/c she takes her back leg and tries to scratch where the tube is into her neck.

The BS reason the idiot gave me was "if she stops eating I won't know if it is b/c she is depressed that you left or if there is a medical reason."

I shouldn't say this out loud and I feel guilty for thinking it but I have a bad feeling this is not going to end well. I know I need to manifest her getting better. The cat sitter called and said she seems very unhappy compared to friday. he said nothing is "wrong" (no vomit, etc) but it's like she just wants to sleep and doesn't even care that he is there. I am sooo scared.

Sugar: where can i go to read up on some of the food things you have told me about?

[Love4himies]

Baytril should NOT be given to cats with kidney problems, IMO. I gave Snowball (he was in kidney failure) Baytril and after a day on it it stopped eating and didn't eat again :sad: . His appetite was just fine before the Baytril. I think Dr. Lee has also stated that Baytril is hard on the kidneys, I will try to find it.

[Love4himies]

Here it is:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....hlight=baytril

I will NEVER allow my cats to have baytril again.

[meow]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Here it is:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....hlight=baytril

I will NEVER allow my cats to have baytril again.

OMG! Did your cat ever eat again???????????????????????????? I am sooooooo sorry. Now I am scared to give it to her. I gave her clovomax with new food and she puked. we don't know if she puked from the food or the clovomax and i am afraid to make her puke again. i am also afraid to stop the meds and afraid to not give the meds. I feel like i am in hell.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by meow

OMG! Did your cat ever eat again????????????????????????????

Snowball was in extreme kidney failure, possible kidney cancer, not like your kitty. I only wish I was a member on this forum when he was sick.

This drug has helped other kitties, but I have to post my experience with it as I don't think it would be fair not to. I get shivers everytime I hear about it.

Can you ask your vet if your kitty still needs to be on antibiotics, and if so perhaps change them?

[Dr Lee]

I am sorry to hear that your kitty is having problems. Baytril can be used in cats however loss of appetite is a common side effect. Also it needs be used carefully and at a low dose to avoid risk of blindness and to be used judiciously in renal (kidney) diseases patients. For infection of the kidney, baytril is actually a good choice however if the patient is not tolerating it and there is another option, then perhaps we need to look for another antibiotic. Clavamox is good but some pets do vomit on it. Perhaps discuss the situation and your concerns with your veterinarian. Was a culture done that lets us know which antibiotics are the best in this case? If there are no other options, then talk to your veterinarian about a kidney supportive diet, the use of pepcid and perhaps an appetite stimulant. Unfortunately I cannot tell you to stop or continue the baytril however I hope that the information that I have provided might help you decide which is best for your pet and give you a basis to have a discussion with your vet for re-evaluating whether baytril is right for your pet. There are always options. I hope this helps. If you wish me to review labwork, just PM me and post the lab results on this thread. Best wishes.

[meow]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Snowball was in extreme kidney failure, possible kidney cancer, not like your kitty. I only wish I was a member on this forum when he was sick.

This drug has helped other kitties, but I have to post my experience with it as I don't think it would be fair not to. I get shivers everytime I hear about it.

Can you ask your vet if your kitty still needs to be on antibiotics, and if so perhaps change them?

I am so sorry about your kitty! Yes my vet is back tomorrow and I will ask him if there is another antibiotic for her to take that won't make her puke. Thank you for your suggestion

[meow]

Originally Posted by Dr Lee

I am sorry to hear that your kitty is having problems. Baytril can be used in cats however loss of appetite is a common side effect. Also it needs be used carefully and at a low dose to avoid risk of blindness and to be used judiciously in renal (kidney) diseases patients. For infection of the kidney, baytril is actually a good choice however if the patient is not tolerating it and there is another option, then perhaps we need to look for another antibiotic. Clavamox is good but some pets do vomit on it. Perhaps discuss the situation and your concerns with your veterinarian. Was a culture done that lets us know which antibiotics are the best in this case? If there are no other options, then talk to your veterinarian about a kidney supportive diet, the use of pepcid and perhaps an appetite stimulant. Unfortunately I cannot tell you to stop or continue the baytril however I hope that the information that I have provided might help you decide which is best for your pet and give you a basis to have a discussion with your vet for re-evaluating whether baytril is right for your pet. There are always options. I hope this helps. If you wish me to review labwork, just PM me and post the lab results on this thread. Best wishes.

Thank you Dr Lee. She is on an apetite stimulant and it is not working. No culture was done that I know of to let us know which antibiotic to use. They are concerned that all will make her vomit so i thin they kept her on the baytril b/c she isn't vomiting it and she also is within the "safe" (is there such a thing) guidelines. The infection is for an infection in the bone of her mouth. My concern was that the baytril may be causing the not eating and the kidney problem.

[meow]

Originally Posted by growler

Gross question I know but...What did the vomit consist of and what colour was it? mostly water? food? hairball? clear/yellow/white/brown?

Has she pooped recently? Alot of kidney cats that are constipated will throw up from the strain of trying to poop.

I know it's not always possible but if you see her heading for the litterbox, you could remove the cone long enough for her to do her business, then put it back on, it will give her a better frame of mind going to use the box & going outside the box hopefully won't become a habit cuz it's easier.



Did they do a urine culture? As SCM mentions the cloudyness is not normal. The normal range on lab tests for ph is 5.5 - 7 ideally it should be 6-6.5
With the ph being low & the cloudyness there could be infection or crystals or something else in there

What colour was it? That should be listed near appearance.

Have you set up to measure how much water she is drinking? - this will be important to your vet in determining if she should start fluid therapy.

The USG is alarmingly low - does any of the reports you have list the cat being on IV fluids other than during the actual surgery? During the 2 week stay was she on IV fluids? On the invoice/Drs notes it would be listed as LRS or Lactated Ringers Solution.

In CRF cats the USG will probably be between 1.008 and 1.012, my grrl's last USG test showed higher (better) than that even though she was at the time on twice weekly fluids. Once a cat goes on regular fluid therapy the USG is not as reliable a measure.

On the most recent blood test was there a T4 or Tetraiodothyronine T4 amount tested? If so what is the number?

Other causes of low USG include Hyperthyroid, Diabetes, Liver disease, kidney infections, the use of corticosteroids such as prednisone and prednisolone.

A T4 test looks like 2.6 which looks normal

[meow]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.



Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you.

I do not know about sediment. The vet wants to do an additional blood test thursday to check something with the kidneys. They did an ultrasound and everything looked normal on that

[meow]

I was worried b/c pet sitter said simba looked lethargic. I came straight home took off her cone and petted her for a long time. She looked alert so i got out a string and wiggled it for her. She batted it with her paw several times and even bit it again. Then i got out a toy mouse and she actually pounced on it She tried to put the mouse in her mouth and I think she didn't like how it felt with now teeth and looked a little freaked. Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.


(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that? My kitty has never been sick before so this is a first for me.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by meow

Thank you. I have to go to work and can't look it up now but will post later. YES she was on IV for the 2 weeks he held her hostage! God only knows what else happened to her. Yes she has pooped and the poop looked normal considering the food change.

urine

appearance: cloudy
Color: yellow

Being on IV during the surgery is normal but for two weeks after is concerning. Putting a cat that doesn't need IV fluids for kidney disease or an emergency situation on fluids for an extended time period can adversely affect the health of the kidneys which is why vets try to hold off on giving kidney cats fluids as long as the cat is not dehydrated.

Good news on the poop & the urine colour being yellow

Originally Posted by meow

My new vet is helping me get a 2nd dentist opinion from a major university dental chairman. We are suspicious that she didn't even need this surgery at all.

I hope they are going to take new xrays of her mouth & not rely on the original ones. Hopefully this can be done without anaesethsia but using a light sedation (normally they will anaesethize the kitties cuz they don't sit still ), Simba's been through so much already.

Originally Posted by meow

I feel soooooo guilty. I am her mom and I took her to that monster.

This was not your fault , lay the blame where it belongs.

Originally Posted by meow

The vet wants to do an additional blood test thursday to check something with the kidneys. They did an ultrasound and everything looked normal on that

I would have them re-run the full blood panel, urinanlysis and do a urine culture

The BUN in normal range while the Creatinine is in the 3s and such a low USG is abit puzzling. The BUN generally rises with the Cre. I think there is something else going on

What was the WBC white blood cell count on the pre-op and the post-op tests?

Did they say the size of the kidneys were even & normal?

Originally Posted by meow

Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.


(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that? My kitty has never been sick before so this is a first for me.

Have you tried crushing some of the original dry food & sprinkling it on top of the canned food you are trying to get her to eat by mouth?

Yes I certainly have been through all the emotions on that particular roller coaster.

I know it's hard & you are trying but I truly believe a positive attitude/outlook really will help how Simba feels. Concentrate on the progress she has made, look how far she's come It's wonderful that she played & pounced a bit too

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by meow

how did you learn all this?

My cats have had some very serious illnesses over the years. Aztec, who is still with me, developed diabetes 6 years ago, and it was a big wake-up call for me. Knowing that diabetes and diet are intricately related, I started researching feline nutrition - everything I could get my hands on. It was eye-opening to say the least. Unfortunately this info came too late to save Aztec's brother, Egypt, who I had to euthanize because of severe inflammatory bowel disease (which had possibly turned into cancer). I had fed both of them "diet" dry food for most of their lives and their poor health was directly related to this.

Originally Posted by meow

Sugar: where can i go to read up on some of the food things you have told me about?

Although lengthy, this link is the most readable: http://www.catinfo.org/
These are pretty technical but very thorough:
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

And here is some stuff on the low-protein for kidney issues myth:
http://www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm
http://mousabilities.com/nutrition/c...protein_RD.pdf

Originally Posted by meow

IShe looked alert so i got out a string and wiggled it for her. She batted it with her paw several times and even bit it again. Then i got out a toy mouse and she actually pounced on it

This is truly a great sign. A cat that feels super-horrible is not going to expend the energy required to bat a toy, believe me. They probably wouldn't even look at it. When Egypt was sick, the vet and I agreed that as long as he was interested in stuff like the birds outside or using his scratching post or swatting at a catnip mouse, we would fight for his life.

Originally Posted by meow

Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.

Fantastic! Keep at it. I can't remember, have you tried offering her a piece of boiled chicken? My cat finds this to be the ultimate treat (next to C.E.T. dental chews ).

Originally Posted by meow

(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that?

Hell ya. I so totally understand what you're going through. There is a lot of anguish and helplessness when you so desperately want your loved one to get better. All I can say is that no matter what happens, being able to experience such a deep love with another living creature is a profound thing.

[meow]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

My cats have had some very serious illnesses over the years. Aztec, who is still with me, developed diabetes 6 years ago, and it was a big wake-up call for me. Knowing that diabetes and diet are intricately related, I started researching feline nutrition - everything I could get my hands on. It was eye-opening to say the least. Unfortunately this info came too late to save Aztec's brother, Egypt, who I had to euthanize because of severe inflammatory bowel disease (which had possibly turned into cancer). I had fed both of them "diet" dry food for most of their lives and their poor health was directly related to this.



Although lengthy, this link is the most readable: http://www.catinfo.org/
These are pretty technical but very thorough:
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

And here is some stuff on the low-protein for kidney issues myth:
http://www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm
http://mousabilities.com/nutrition/c...protein_RD.pdf




This is truly a great sign. A cat that feels super-horrible is not going to expend the energy required to bat a toy, believe me. They probably wouldn't even look at it. When Egypt was sick, the vet and I agreed that as long as he was interested in stuff like the birds outside or using his scratching post or swatting at a catnip mouse, we would fight for his life.



Fantastic! Keep at it. I can't remember, have you tried offering her a piece of boiled chicken? My cat finds this to be the ultimate treat (next to C.E.T. dental chews ).



Hell ya. I so totally understand what you're going through. There is a lot of anguish and helplessness when you so desperately want your loved one to get better. All I can say is that no matter what happens, being able to experience such a deep love with another living creature is a profound thing.

I am so sorry about Egypt. Egypt was a great lil friend.
Thanks for the links. will read later

[meow]

New vet just called and said Simba has pancreatitis. He has not idea how long she has had it or if it is reactionary. He said her case is not more complex b/c she has the renal thing and the pacreais thing which are treated in 2 different ways. He will take her off the baytril and try clondomycin (sp?). He said he has to consult with the ICU internist on what to do next because she might need another food change. He said if this is reactionary pancreatitis it could settle down but b/c she just started going to him he doesn't know which it is. Everything looked normal on an ultrasound.
I am trying to stay calm til he calls me back today. we are seeing him tomorrow and i know he is going to do another blood and urine test (and change the wrap on her feeding tube). Both docs know little about nutrition...they are good docs...but typlical docs in the nutrition realm. I am trying not to freak b/c there is nothing i can do. So this may explain why she won't eat too.

My poor kitty!

[chico2]

Aww Meow,I am so sorry,I don't know anything about pancreatitis,butlittle Simba will recover,it seems to be one thing after the other.
I know you are worried sick so here is a for a good outcome for you and Simba

[Love4himies]

Oh poor kitty. You and her just need to get a break. It sounds like she is doing OK if she is wanting to play for a bit.

[Love4himies]

Here is some info I found on pets.ca on pancreatitis:

http://www.pets.ca/encyclopedia/pancreatitis_cat.htm

[meow]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Here is some info I found on pets.ca on pancreatitis:

http://www.pets.ca/encyclopedia/pancreatitis_cat.htm

Thank you for the link. She has all the symptoms. I was hospitalized myself in sept 08 and almost died. i am still recovering. now my simba.:sad: #$@*&% what is going on? I hope she can pull through this. No call back from the vet yet.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by meow

Thank you for the link. She has all the symptoms. I was hospitalized myself in sept 08 and almost died. i am still recovering. now my simba.:sad: #$@*&% what is going on? I hope she can pull through this. No call back from the vet yet.

and more .