Please help !!! Last night he went off

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Rottielover

They think it is a good idea, I will explain on the phone the details that Doug would like me to do with Harley and such with another dog. As of tomorrow morning Harley will be attached to me full time, except work and sleep. The reason I say tomorrow is, my energy is so low, and so much to process, Harley will pick up on it, So Doug agreed....
BM I appreciate your help with Maddox, as well as everyone else who is trying to point us in the right direction. Main thing here seems to be the trust issue.

Great - whatever they want us to do - we will do it.

Maddox has a vet appointment tonight. I have to find out where we stand and what he can and cannot do at this point. Due to his bad leg our time will be short but he needs to walk anyways so nothing strenuous. K?

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Great - whatever they want us to do - we will do it.

Maddox has a vet appointment tonight. I have to find out where we stand and what he can and cannot do at this point. Due to his bad leg our time will be short but he needs to walk anyways so nothing strenuous. K?

This is great news you two! Let us all know how it goes.

for continued success with Harley RL!!

[Rottielover]

No, it is nothing strenuous at least for Maddox, all he does at first is sit there. I will explain soon.

[erykah1310]

RL Meiko as you know is also highly da... its odd to me how both him and Harley did fine when u came to visit.
I have no advice for you, even after training and behaviourists Meiko is still DA.
Hang in there, if anyone is going to "fix" this it will be you.

[Rottielover]

I ordered the work book from Brenda Aloff, Will follow this step by step, back to one. I was also suggested by someone who is very familiar with rottweilers to put him on anti anxiety meds, what do you think.
2 days ago we went to to see the person who trains her rottweilers for competition, with harleys muzzle on was showing me how to get the focus back at me. The whole 2 mins she had him, his focus was not leaving me, the insecurity grew, and he tried to bite her. Thank god he had the muzzle on.
It showed me as well as someone else just how far he will go with the insecurity.
Outside the home he is a nervous wreck, inside the home he is a complete different dog. .
I have been walking him alone, walking and training as we go. I can get 100 feet with a dog near by, then his body posture changes dramatically.
Should I consider putting on the meds? What would you do?
Yet we can go to the vet clinic with dogs all over the place and he is fine????? I am confused as to what goes through his head.
Tenderheart and her hubby have given me solid advice which I am taking to heart.

[Bailey_]

RL, who advised you to start Harley on medication if you don't mind me asking? Your vet? Have you tried more natural relaxing components rather than medication on Harley?

I personally think anxiety medications are a good route ONLY IF your environment does not allow you to counter condition Harley and desensitize him to dogs safely without having him react. If you currently run into many dogs on your walks together, it may be an option to consider. If you have the ability to desensitize Harley in safe surroundings with other obedient, well mannered dogs, then I would continue doing this without the use of medication.

You say you can get 100 feet near a dog and then his posture changes. This is GREAT that you are aware of this! Often times desensitization comes from just knowing how close we are able to approach another dog without OUR dog becoming frustrated/scared/aggressive.

Are you able to actually see Tenderfoot in person? I'm not sure where either of you are located, but it would be great to have them assess Harley in person for you.

The only thing about the medication to keep in mind is that when you start him on anything like this it can take around 2-6 weeks for you to actually see an effect. You'll also most likely have to decrease or increase the amount depending on how it's affecting Harley as you monitor his progress. It would be ideal not to have to use it, BUT this is strictly your choice with many positive and negative associations. Whatever you do, you're doing for the best interest and safety of your dog, so try not to doubt or second guess your instinct. We're proud of you!

[Rottielover]

Wow just lost everything I typed
I will start again. It was a person from the health store that said to me that he does not think the bach flowers would be strong enough for him
Tenderfoot lives in Colorado, I in Montreal, so that is out. I have until tomorrow to decide what I want to do, we see the vet tomorrow. Until then I have a lot of reading to do

[tenderfoot]

I don't see why everyone can't get together and we can do a big clinic in Montreal! We need a vacation and I think its time to put faces to the names on this board.

Meds don't fix the problem. They can subdue the emtions but they are certain to come right back when the meds are stopped.

[luckypenny]

Anti anxiety meds are to be used in combination with de-sensitizing/reconditioning exercises. Just a reminder that meds alone won't work. If you choose to go this route, Harley should start on a low dose for approx. 4 weeks and it's then gradually increased until you find the dosage that works best for him with the least amount of side effects. You may see an increase in anxiety/aggression for up to several days at the commencement of treatment and at every dosage increase.

Clomipramine (Clomicalm) did not work very well with our Lucky (but we were successful with another, just can't think of the name right now). With Jasmine however, the change in her was extremely positive after 4 weeks, in conjunction with behavior modification exercises.

RL, speak with your vet. If he doesn't have much experience with meds to help treat aggression, let me know and I can recommend one in NDG who helped us immensely with Lucky.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by tenderfoot

Meds don't fix the problem. They can subdue the emtions but they are certain to come right back when the meds are stopped.

Fortunately for us I guess, that wasn't the case.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

...we were successful with another, just can't think of the name right now

Found it...Amitriptyline.

[Rottielover]

Come on down tenderfoot, enjoy a nice Canadian winter
I will speak with er tomorrow to see what her out take on it will be. I know the drugs is not a solution, but possible help to come to a solution with him. Hard work and back to basics, and do everything Tenderfoot has suggested.
I am thinking maybe with the drugs, might help him relax enough to have him focus outside. Instead of wondering when the next dog or child is coming...

[tenderfoot]

Lucky Penny - so happy that it helped you. I can't think of a single client whose dog was cured by drugs, only toned down while they were able to do the work needed. There is benefit there, but I worry that too many people think the drugs are a cure for their pets (and their kids). so I was giving a heads up. But happy things worked out for you.

[Bailey_]

I am thinking maybe with the drugs, might help him relax enough to have him focus outside.

Exactly RL. Medication of this kind should be used as an AID to rehabilate an animal, and as I mentioned IMO only when your environment is not allowing you to safely rehabiliate and condition him.

Tenderfoot, I honestly don't know any of our clients that had been advised to use an anti-anxiety drug and viewed it as a cure-all. Nor did any of them have the impression that it was okay or safe to use the drug long-term simply due to the harsh side effects. Do the vets in your area not explain what can happen if rehabiliation does not occur during the course of this short term medication?

I think getting a group together would be AWESOME!!!!! I've always wanted to go to Montreal again.

Keep us posted RL as to what you decide to do when you talk to your vet tomorrow.

[tenderfoot]

Hello Bailey!
You may not be familiar with the American mentality of 'toss drugs at it and all will be well'. Not to say we are all druggies but there tends to be a 'magic pill' solution for everything. I hate it, and not everyone falls for it, but there are a few who take the vet/drs word as gospel and pop the pills instead of look to the source of the problem and deal with it.

[Rottielover]

If I decide the med route, I promise you we will be trying to get to the route of the problem and working with it. I think in all honesty the route of the problem is me

[kandy]

Originally Posted by tenderfoot

Hello Bailey!
You may not be familiar with the American mentality of 'toss drugs at it and all will be well'. Not to say we are all druggies but there tends to be a 'magic pill' solution for everything. I hate it, and not everyone falls for it, but there are a few who take the vet/drs word as gospel and pop the pills instead of look to the source of the problem and deal with it.

I totally agree - vets here are more into getting rid of the symptoms instead of working on the source of the problem. I know a woman whose vet put her border collie on a fairly strong sedative because he was too hyper - the vet never even asked how much exercise the dog gets. I happen to know that the dog gets zero exercise.

Anyway - you are in good hands with Tenderfoot. I'm sure that even over the phone they will be able to help you. I ordered their training video a few years ago and it's very good. I still use the imaginary boundary thing - that comes in so handy when you have a tiny kitchen and a big dog that likes to supervise the cooking.

[tenderfoot]

Hey there Kandy - good to hear from you!!

We have someone driving down from WY tomorrow for a training! She is going to stay a few days to get some help for her little one.

Sorry about your friends Border - too sad.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by tenderfoot

Hello Bailey!
You may not be familiar with the American mentality of 'toss drugs at it and all will be well'. Not to say we are all druggies but there tends to be a 'magic pill' solution for everything. I hate it, and not everyone falls for it, but there are a few who take the vet/drs word as gospel and pop the pills instead of look to the source of the problem and deal with it.

Ei yie yie...that is crazy.

Glad you're able to spread the word in your area though of how this type of medication needs to be used!

[Sora]

Well, just thought I would throw this out there- I know someone with an older dog who had horrible anxiety problems. She tried a DAP collar, and the dogs demeanor completely changed, and what she feared before (storms), no longer bothers her. A DAP collar releases a pheremone that reminds the dog of being a puppy with their mother, so it helps calm them. This of course would have to be used alongside other techniques, and it only works for some dogs(completely random as far as I know), but it may be worth a try!

[Lyrical44]

I dont have much in the way of advice...I just thought I would throw my input on drugs, it seems like pet drugs are often the same as people drugs, and one of you mentioned Amitryptoline, and I was on that...it is a sleep aid....for some anyways. Just a heads up there on that one..There are tons of drugs, but I dont think they will be helpful for you.

[Rottielover]

We went to the vet tonight, and boy was he a happy camper there. We were going to do a thyroid test, until my vet told me with the charts that he had it done 1.5 years years ago, she showed me the results, and it was a perfect score. She said he is the healthiest physically she has ever seen him, very happy with it. My vet did a thorough check up.
I spoke to her about the meds, I am really not convinced this is the best route to go, if anything I want to use it as a last resort. She does not like the idea with him because he is finally healthy, do not want to jeopardize anything.
He is a solid 99 lbs smaller than he looks, great muscle tone.
So I have decide to recondition myself a little before really working with other dogs with him.
I need to think what worked with him before, what I did wrong.
I do not want to risk doing more damage to him.
Thank you very much for everyone's input, it has been greatly appreciated, beyond words.

[chico2]

R-L,Atleast he's very healthy,must be a relief for you,you need a Ceasar Milan,he never seems to suggest drugsto you and Harley

[Bailey_]

Wonderful news RL!!! Glad to hear it. Keep us posted!!

[Love4himies]

Of course every species is going to react differently, but Sweet Pea got aggressive after a week on amitriptyline.

[Rottielover]

Harley does not need Caesar melan or his methods. Harley seems to react better with positive, not negative. I will keep everyone in the loop once we make some progress.

[Rottielover]

I just wanted to give a little update on this situation. I decided to follow my gut on this knowing my dog and getting some great advice. I also purchased the book from Brenda Aloff.
I have decided to go with the gentle leader again. With this route he does not believe he is being punished. The prong seemed to cause more of the reactivity.
Not only that since Roxy has passed, I am more at ease not as stressed so I can focus only on him.
He is slowly coming around about me protecting him outside on walks.
The passed week he has come around quite a bit with using the leader and redirecting before anything looks like it may escalate.
I do have a huge brag though about him.
@ days ago on lunch when I was walking him, there was a loose boxer on this womans property. I knew the dog belonged there because did not even move(this dog is trained for protection work) I had to make a call on the spot. Do I walk up to the door watching the boxer, or do I walk away.
Well I chose to go to the door. Harley was watching me the whole time.
I let the woman know that her dog jumped the fence. As I started walking away the boxer moved toward the house. Harley did not growl, did not react.
When the boxer was safely in the house I praised him more than you can ever think of.
I think in my head I should have stuck with training that I knew and should not have listened to the trainer around here. He is a very sensitive dog.
But that is my brag for my baby boy. We even started having off leash play time with a rott lab pup he grew up with who is 9 months old.
I think all in all He felt he had to protect me, as well as roxy, and when roxy was not there he was reading my stress level and reacted on the only way he knew how, out of fear.

[chico2]

Good Boy Harley
That's really good to hear,maybe he too was stressed with Roxy's illness

[Love4himies]

What a good boy you are Harley .

We just don't know what goes through the mind of our pets, and perhaps Chico is right, he felt the need to protect Roxy because of her illness.

[pbpatti]

Rottilover, I am so proud of you be able to get Harley back to a calmer place. You had a long road and took it with grace. congrats to both of you for the hard work and persistence. pbp