Puppies!

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Akira - mixes are part of the equation..

Exactly.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think that a Black Lab(which was registered with the CKC) was put down cause they said it resembled a pitty...I'm sure I saw it on the the news a while back.

Soooo, is this irresponsible owner going to help you with the vet bills? I would surely hope so.

Maybe you could see if your vet will do the pups at 12 weeks..Then this way you can have them done before they left.

Originally Posted by Chris21711

It is sad that whoever you got your girl from didn't ask you to sign a s/n contract then you wouldn't be in this predicament.

Unfortunately chris, this is the farthest thing from an irresponsible BYB's eyes..:sad:

You never gave the age of your dog?

[Akira]

Originally Posted by mona_b

Unfortunately chris, this is the farthest thing from an irresponsible BYB's eyes..:sad:

Excuse me? I really hope your not talking about me.

I saved her life, she was at a horrible puppy mill and was so infested with tapeworms she was vomiting them. We took her and then reported them to the humaine society.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

uhm, i think she meant the person you got your dog from should of had you sign a s/n contract...

[Akira]

Okay, well I wasn't planning on never fixing her. I wanted her to be fully grown before I spayed her. Shes about a year and a 1/2 now.

Mona - Are you talking about having them fixed at 12 weeks? Cause they are getting all there shots n that before they go. But I would never fix a dog that young, ever.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

Akira is there is reason? It is perfectly safe to spay before a year and a half, and as you have learned has benfits.. They have shown that it is fine to do younger than that.

[Gail P]

Very cute puppies. As for spay/neuter age, I've never had any reason to do pups as young as 12 weeks, but all of the pups I've raised have been done by 5 1/2-6 months and have done fabulously. No problems, no licking or chewing at stitches, in fact is seems to me that being done young is easier on them, most times they act like they never even noticed it happened. I just had Dru neutered in late January, just before he turned 6 months and when he came home he wasn't even the tiniest bit groggy, he just wanted to play and carry on as normal and he never even looked at his stitches. I know there are varying opinions on when to neuter but I've always preferred earlier. I once read an article about gelding horses that was written by a vet, and he was talking about age to geld. Some people are apparently of the opinion that a colt needs time to "develop" before being gelded. The vet's response to that was "develop what? bad manners?" He said it would make no difference to the animal's mature size and structure if he was gelded at 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years.

[14+kitties]

Here's a couple of sites for you to look at. Maybe it will help to change your mind about early s/n.

http://petcare.suite101.com/article....and_cat_neuter

http://www.darlenearden.com/artclespay.htm

Also....... along with making the decision to not spay your dog early so her bones can develop comes the responsibility to ensure she is NOT in the position to EVER become pregnant.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Akira

Excuse me? I really hope your not talking about me.

I see you DIDN'T read the quote properly...And thank you lUvMyLaB<3..That's exactly what I meant.

Akira, do you think it was a responsible thing to take your dog that was in heat to a dog park?

Originally Posted by Akira

Mona - Are you talking about having them fixed at 12 weeks?

That's exactly what I meant...An early spay does NOT effect the bones when older..If it did, do you honestly think that the vets for the SPCA would do it?..I know many people who have adopted pups from there..The dogs are all between 7-11 years of age now, and they are just fine..The spca will not let any of their animals to be adopted out without being done..Both my cats were done at 8 weeks when adopted.

All my dogs were done at 6 months...THIS on the breeders(ethical) contract..My dogs being done at that age look and act no different then any done after a year. And my current will be 13 on Wed.

A year and a half? THAT is to young to have a litter..Poor girl.

No lUvMyLaB<3, we don't have a law like that..Not like anyone would obey it anyway..

Thanks for posting those links 14+....

[Diamondsmum]

Originally Posted by mona_b

I see you DIDN'T read the quote properly...And thank you lUvMyLaB<3..That's exactly what I meant.

Akira, do you think it was a responsible thing to take your dog that was in heat to a dog park?

Whoooo Mona, lets not dwell on this anymore, just like a teenage pregency it is in the past & nothing will change it.

Originally Posted by mona_b

That's exactly what I meant...An early spay does NOT effect the bones when older..If it did, do you honestly think that the vets for the SPCA would do it?..I know many people who have adopted pups from there..The dogs are all between 7-11 years of age now, and they are just fine..The spca will not let any of their animals to be adopted out without being done..Both my cats were done at 8 weeks when adopted.

You learn something new everyday I didnt know that you can spay that young.

Originally Posted by mona_b

All my dogs were done at 6 months...THIS on the breeders(ethical) contract..My dogs being done at that age look and act no different then any done after a year. And my current will be 13 on Wed

Good to know

Originally Posted by mona_b

A year and a half? THAT is to young to have a litter..Poor girl.

again.. accidents happen.. She had admintted her mistake & is trying her best to "fix" it, & I believe her girl will be spayed asap after puppies are weaned.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

we do have that law.. it is also a by law here that no dog in heat can enter the dog park.. one would think your dog would become pregnant.

There is nothing wrong with spay at 6 months! it will not change your dog. I did my colt at 6 months, he is now 16 hands beautiful, and has won against stallions in shows.. There is a bigger risk to not spaying, especially if you cannot be responsible for her to make sure she does not have an unwanted litter. There are too many unwanted litters, and when you have to find homes for them you are taking away a possible home for another dog that may be pts..

mona-b I agree, i think it is better to have a spay at a year and a half then a litter!

to the OP what age where you thinking to get her done? I am curious why you think it is not good to have done.

the puppies are cute though, I hope they have happy forever homes. please make sure they get fised early though, so that they don't end up having a litter, the 2 adult dogs can soon turn into hundreds of dogs, please watch out for them.

[babymomma]

IF I were to breed dogs, Which I will not (Even though i would really love to better the GSD breed here in my province, as so many idiots have screwed it up)

I would 100 % without a doubt s/n All pups before leaving my home. I would probably keep them until 12 weeks of age (I personally beleive no pup should be taken fromn its mom before 12 weeks) and then sell them to their new homes (Anybody else feel that saying "sell the puppy to its new owners" sounds harsh? I got cold shivers while typing it)

My 2 cents, Its better for the dogs before the first heat. As it reduces the chance of getting some cancers plus other diseases. (Did you get your puppy tested for stds? Dogs OFTEN get them)

[Luvmypitgirls]

OK I WANT EM ALL!!!...

If there is staffy in the pups make sure the vet classifies them as Rottie or whatever else they are mixed with.


Or you can just pack em all up and send em to me...

[Akira]

Lol luvmypitgirls.

A lot of you aren't reading everything, obviously. Because we are not talking about having them fixed at 6 months, we're talking about 3 months! They barely have genitals at that age!!! Soo, basicaly what i'm saying is, no matter how benificial it may be to stunt their bone growth, I won't do it.
Don't try and tell me it won't do anything to them mona, you don't know for sure. Do you actualy know there are lots of downsides to having your dog s/n. I've witnessed them myself.


Do I honestly think the vets for the spca would do it? Yes! I don't know how much you know about the spca, but not all of them are the best of places, a lot of them are kill shelters and all they want to do is control the population of animals, they don't care about bone growth and over all development of the dogs.

I have to go to the vet, so I don't have time to type anymore.. Say what you will about what I just wrote, it wont change my decision.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by Akira

Do I honestly think the vets for the spca would do it? Yes! I don't know how much you know about the spca, but not all of them are the best of places, a lot of them are kill shelters and all they want to do is control the population of animals, they don't care about bone growth and over all development of the dogs.

I know lots and lots about the spca. Maybe some of them are not the best of places, but they do TRY their best.

Of course they want to control population, because they have NO choice. There are too many IRRESPONSIBLE pet owners who allow their pets to breed without thinking of the consequences

.

Sadly many of them are not no-kill shelters, but they do try their best, they do not enjoy having to put ANY animal to sleep, even the ones that are deemed unadoptable due to behaviour, it saddens them very deeply :sad:

[Akira]

And it saddens me deeply!!! I can't even go into shelters without crying. All of you are Effing against me and I feel the same as all of you! I know what I did was incredibly stupid and I hate myself for letting my girl go through this, I have to take her to the vet in a few mins because she probably has UTI. I can't afford all this, I don't know what person would WANT to go through this.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by Akira

And it saddens me deeply!!! I can't even go into shelters without crying. All of you are Effing against me and I feel the same as all of you! I know what I did was incredibly stupid and I hate myself for letting my girl go through this, I have to take her to the vet in a few mins because she probably has UTI. I can't afford all this, I don't know what person would WANT to go through this.

Hopefully then the next time your girl is in heat, you won't take her to an off-leash dog park and not pay attention to what is going on.

[BenMax]

Akira, what you may not know is that many of us here are picking up the pieces - meaning unwanted, abused, abandoned and broken animals. It is us that are in the trenches (whether that be shelter staff, rescue workers or concerned citizens that refuse to look the other way). We are trying very hard to educate and promote public awareness on the severity of the over-population of unwanted pets. We unfortunately are the ones that are working very diligently to try and save as many as possible - and this is a bottomless pit.

I speak for myself - I CAN'T SLEEP. I have visions, dreams and flashbacks of horrors because someone did not do the right thing. When we get a dog that is pregnant, I am rushing to the vet to see how far long to know if I can have the dog aborted. Not to be cruel, and it is personally for me - ripes me apart to end life, but I also think about the fate of these pups if they are born. Who will get them? Will they live a full and good life? Which one of these little ones will be abandoned somewhere down the road? Who will be lost? Who will be another statistic? Who won't?

There are many that may side with not sterilizing at a certain age. It is interesting as to how many professionals (vets) really have no concrete answers.

I stand in on one solid position. That position is to ensure that whoever owns a dog or cat or rabbit take the necessary procautions to ensure that their pet is safe and not adding to an already grave problem. In essense it is our responsiblity and not the animals.

I don't think anyone is being harsh but I guess we are concerned for you and your pet and of course the babes.

Please Akira, sterilize your girl and ensure that those adopting the babes do the same. You are in an excellent position to influence those that do not ...to do so. You have the experience to share everything that you are currently going through.

Thanks for listening.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by mona_b

An early spay does NOT effect the bones when older..

Originally Posted by lUvMyLaB<3

There is nothing wrong with spay at 6 months! it will not change your dog.

Just to show the other side of the coin, there's actually mounting evidence that early spay DOES effect dogs. In fact some are saying large breed dogs shouldn't be spayed before 14-18 months. Besides the bone growth issue, there are increased cancer rates (including the very deadly hemangiosarcoma), urinary incontinence, an increase in ACL ruptures, and even behavioral problems in females spayed early. Hormones have a significant influence on physiology and stopping those hormones dead in their tracks before they've had a chance to exert that influence will of course have repurcussions. If you think about it, speutering at 6 months (never mind earlier!) is akin to giving a 12 yr old girl a hysterectomy. You don't think that's going to change the way she grows?

Here's an article by a very well know veterinary oncologist:
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.co...ting-pets.aspx

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Just to show the other side of the coin, there's actually mounting evidence that early spay DOES effect dogs. In fact some are saying large breed dogs shouldn't be spayed before 14-18 months. Besides the bone growth issue, there are increased cancer rates (including the very deadly hemangiosarcoma), urinary incontinence, an increase in ACL ruptures, and even behavioral problems in females spayed early. Hormones have a significant influence on physiology and stopping those hormones dead in their tracks before they've had a chance to exert that influence will of course have repurcussions. If you think about it, speutering at 6 months (never mind earlier!) is akin to giving a 12 yr old girl a hysterectomy. You don't think that's going to change the way she grows?

Here's an article by a very well know veterinary oncologist:
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.co...ting-pets.aspx

All of that being said SCM and I for one have a very high regard of your knowledge.

WE HAVE TO CONTROL THE PET OVERPOPULATION and the misery that ensues. :sad:

[lUvMyLaB<3]

I agree that there may be an increased chance of some cancers ect.. but there is also proof that no spaying has the same issues, mammory cancer, uterine cancer, ect.. so we have to weigh the issues, as we can see clearly that waiting has a massive increased chance of your dog having an unwanted litter, so I believe those chances and side effects are much greater than the alternative, if you cannot guaruntee that your dog will never be out while in heat than I think you need to choose the early spay.

As for bone growth, there are no concrete facts, you cannot compare dogs some may have been larger boned anyway. And if you are not showing a dog I dont think it matters, who really cares and why?

I think it is worth the chance, to stop more dogs from being killed. I too benmax have the same dreams, I at the moment can only foster cats because of the situation I am in.. absolutly breaks my heart to think some pups that maybe I could help I cannot and maybe they will be pts. those 2 puppies I found are now in rescue and fostered by someone else. It was sad and scary to turn them over.........

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by lUvMyLaB<3

but there is also proof that no spaying has the same issues, mammory cancer, uterine cancer, ect..

Nobody is saying to NEVER spay. I'm just saying that EARLY spaying is not as cut-and-dried as you guys are saying it is. The risk of mammory cancer increases only slightly after a dog's first heat (and increases further after each subsequent heat). But mammary cancer isn't nearly as deadly as hemangiosarcoma or osteosarcoma.

I also agree that shelters and rescues are quite justified in ensuring the animals that leave their premises are speutered, and if that means having it done at an early age, so be it. However, contrary to what many in rescue seem to think, there are responsible pet owners out there that are capable of keeping their unspayed dogs pregnancy-free (maybe not everyone in this thread, mind you ).

If anyone here is actually open to listening to another side to this, scroll down to Dog Talk Show#96 (10-11-2008) at this link: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/podcast.htm

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Nobody is saying to NEVER spay. I'm just saying that EARLY spaying is not as cut-and-dried as you guys are saying it is. The risk of mammory cancer increases only slightly after a dog's first heat (and increases further after each subsequent heat). But mammary cancer isn't nearly as deadly as hemangiosarcoma or osteosarcoma.

I also agree that shelters and rescues are quite justified in ensuring the animals that leave their premises are speutered, and if that means having it done at an early age, so be it. However, contrary to what many in rescue seem to think, there are responsible pet owners out there that are capable of keeping their unspayed dogs pregnancy-free (maybe not everyone in this thread, mind you ).

If anyone here is actually open to listening to another side to this, scroll down to Dog Talk Show#96 (10-11-2008) at this link: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/podcast.htm

Sugarcatmom - rescues and shelters do know that there are responsible people however it is a risk factor which we wish to avoid. i know we may be anal but we have reason to be so. You know what I mean.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Akira

what i'm saying is, no matter how benificial it may be to stunt their bone growth, I won't do it.

It doesn't stunt their growth.

Originally Posted by Akira

Don't try and tell me it won't do anything to them mona, you don't know for sure.

I do know..That is why I had mentioned the dogs I do know that had it done early..Out of the 5, 2 are mutts..The other three are pure..A GSD, a Boxer and a Cocker...Ranger the GSD is the same height as my GSD..I have known this pup since he got adopted. All these dogs are doing great. Heck my cats were done at 8 weeks.

Originally Posted by Akira

Do you actualy know there are lots of downsides to having your dog s/n..

More if you don't.

Originally Posted by Akira

they don't care about bone growth and over all development of the dogs..

They sure do care.

sugarcatmom, I have listened to it before, and I'll be honest, I just don't agree with alot that was said.

I have raised 3 GSD's..All done at 6 months..All VERY well behaved and trained. And very socialized..Not an ounce of aggression. No HD or other so called related issues mentioned in early neuters. My sisters 3 Huskies and BC were also done at 6 months.

I have also read somewhere that if a dog was fixed at or before 6 months they would not make a good Police Dog..Well that is so not true..My current is a Retired Police Dog..He did great in SchH I II and III..He also did great in his Canine training. And for a dog that's going to be 13, I'd say hes doing great...

There are so many studies out there for soooo many things.Animal AND human..And studies change to something new, then go back to the old studies. One study will say it's better to s/n for health benefits, another will say it's better not to for health benefits..Pretty confusing don't you think?

[Akira]

The puppies are doing fabulous, and most of them have homes waiting for them.

Mona.. i'm sorry, but to keep things civil anything you say I will ignore.



So far everyone that wants a pup are people we know, so we know they are going to good homes and will def. be s/n. I'm going to advise anyone who takes a puppy to s/n between 10-14 months.. these are going to be biiig dogs. The father of the pups doesn't have staff in him, he has American bulldog, and i'm posting up some pictures so take a good look at the white guy, you can really see the bulldog.



1) Goldie, and momma.
2) Whitey ford, chewing his shoe.
3) Cow, checkin out the food bag. (we call him cow cause he kinda looks like a jersey cow)

[Akira]

1) Cream, passed out while everyones playing.
2) First born, cautiously coming out to explore.
3) Toes, being cute as always.

[Chris21711]

The pups are all very cute as all puppies are, I have never come across one that isn't.

You say the father has American Bulldog lines, I hope the Animal Control people in your area are not overzealous, unfortunately it is one of the breeds that is often confused with Pitties/Staffies when talking of X bred dogs.

I wish them all great homes.

[Akira]

Actualy, our town doesn't have animal control. Neighbouring towns might, but now ours.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by Akira

Actualy, our town doesn't have animal control. Neighbouring towns might, but now ours.

According to the town's website the Animal Control Officer is called Everett Pilkey

[Akira]

Well thats a good thing actualy, my husband knows the pilkey family well.
I haven't lived in wasaga for very long, i've never seen any animal control around here so I figured there was just like a county animal control or somthing. Nice to know now that if sombody were to say they look like pits that they won't take them away.

[14+kitties]

Don't count on your hubby knowing the family to keep the pups safe. It doesn't always work that way.
That whole area up there needs a major overhaul for animal control....