my dog's behavior "isn't right"????

[4thedogs]

What you see on tv is not as accurate as you may think, lots of editing, retakes and don't assume that when you see him working with a dog that it is the first time. He shows the quick version. Also, even though he can get them to do what he wants doesn't mean that it is now fixed.
This is the problems with these types of shows. It appears that all behavior problems can be fixed in a matter of minutes, not so.

[Mahealani770]

Is there an update on Talin?

[FlynnMB]

Hi there

Read "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell (United Kingdom). It is excellent! I have a dog who thought that he was the leader of the pack here, guarding the house from all comers & really frightening them. He wouldn't let me open or close the gate (he pulled me back by the trousers) he did the same when I went near the fireplace. Her book does not use any cruel treatments.

I have been exercising her philosophy for the past fortnight & you would not believe the change in Hector. No barking and snarling at strangers, no getting excited when I go near the gate or fire, no pulling on the lead. He is a pleasure of a dog, he comes when he is called etc. & this was just by making it clear that he did not have to lead the pack (which is a role that he didn't like very much). He just seems so relieved to have al this responsability lifted off his little shoulders.

Regards

Mary

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by tenderfoot

Cesar says a lot of good things - please becareful trying to imitate what he does.

He is currently being sued for animal cruelty for putting a dog on a treadmill and it nearly died. The dog was left on a treadmill with a choke chain and the dog must have slipped off and was found nearly dead - trachea severly damaged and back legs shredded.

Cesar has skills that the average person does not - they are honed over many years of practice. He even uses pressure points to subdue animals that are not otherwise controlable. This could put a lot of animals and people at risk if they try to immitate him. His methods are geared towards aggressive dogs and should not be neccessary for the average dog and certainly not to pups. There is so much a person can do without even touching a dog before you should ever have to resort to physical contact.

Cesar talks about exercise, discipline and love. Thats great and all are very important. Exercise is vital to all living beings - but I want my dog to behave well even if he hasn't had his 4 mile jog that day.

I think Cesar has done a lot to bring the conversation of dog training to the table. Just be very careful before you try to imitate him - even National Geographic has big disclaimers on the show.

The treadmill incident happened last year. I have heard/read MANY different variations of this story (pittbull or lab, choke or pinch, dog fell off and hurt his neck or dog fell and broke his leg trying to get back on, etc), but most (or all, I can't remember) of them claim that Cesar nor the National Geographic Channel was ever served with a lawsuit. Unless I see proof of what happened, I'm going to chalk it up to being blown out of porportion. Especially since Cesar claims the dogs are never unattended. Regardless though, this incident is neither here nor there. Remember when Oprah was being sued for an audience member being shoved into her seat? I think she hurt her arm or something. lol (Point being, is that Cesar's an easy target).

Cesar Millan has helped me understand my dog (and many others) better, but his "choke chain and alpha roll" solution will not work well with every dog. You need to remember that his techniques are suitable for only certain personalities, and it takes someone like Cesar to know where and when to use them, and how to use them correctly.

If you watch the show though, you will for sure learn many things about human/dog communication. Like everyone else here said though, please be VERY careful. You're dealing with a highly fearful dog, and even the slightest bit of intimidation can create a huge setback (even if you think you're moving forward).

This thread is long, so forgive me if I missed something, but what is the energy level of your household? Is it really quiet (dog home alone all day? Do people come and go often? Is there any high level energy noises (yelling or fighting, kids playing, construction)? What about at your new house?

[tenderfoot]

Yes, Cesar has made a good target for many people - that comes with celebrity.

My point was to caution people that some some his methods can be dangerous if not in the hands of skilled/experienced people.

I become nervous when clients show up and they have been trying to do the Vulcan grip on their puppy because they saw Cesar do it and now the pup is fearful of them.

[Spirit]

My apologies, Tenderfoot. I didn't mean to overstep. Cesar Millan has a way (or at least he did with me) of explaining canine behavior, which makes certain issues easier for us to understand, and to help us find a solution that our dogs understand.

People have voiced to me their opinion about him or his show, but when I ask if they've ever seen it, the answer has always been no. It's a shame that some people hear things like "he's being sued for tying a dog to a treadmill and the dog got hurt", and jump to conclusions about his techinque being abusive to animals. And of course it can be, in the wrong hands.

If you haven't seen his show, I reccommend it. But I do not, under any circumstances, reccommend using his techniques on any dog without professional advice. And even then, I know some "professionals" that I wouldn't take advice from if they paid me.

I become nervous when clients show up and they have been trying to do the Vulcan grip on their puppy because they saw Cesar do it and now the pup is fearful of them.

I too have seen this happen. It's quite sad.

[tenderfoot]

No apologies needed and no overstepping ever! This is a forum for discussion and we all have our thoughts and ideas which might overlap, or not, at times.

We have been watching the show for some time now - eager to see what the fuss is about.

Don't get me wrong, Cesar says a lot of true and poignant things, but there is much that he does which he does not explain fully and the subtleties might be easily lost on the average dog person. I am thrilled so many people have benefited from his show, anything to make a dog's world better.

Trust me, when I say give a 'dink' on the collar and someone comes back with "Well, I YANKED on the collar and ....." I shudder. Even when I think I am being clear people will hear something and interpret it their way. So in many ways I sympathize with Cesar and his easy target.

[Sundanz]

First of all your Eskie needs to be seen by a vet to rule out thyroid or other problems. Then you need to find a good trainer and behaviorist. Just remember one thing.... your dog could also be the result of bad breeding and no amount of good training will result in a better dog for you. Sure, some breeds are better suitable for families than others, but bad breeding is always an iffy issue. Breeding 2 crazy dogs will not produce a calm and tractable puppy. Sounds like your puppy came from a Mill where the bottomline is making money and not producing good dogs. That is why it is so very important to research and find good ethical breeders, not a puppy mill! If you want a good family dog you need to do your homework as to what breed is best suitable, one who is not normally aggressive, one who loves kids and is totally loyal to it's family, one who accepts strangers etc etc. Of course you must socialize the pup from day one and go to obedience training from puppyhood. Any dog can be made mean and aggressive if wrong and harsh training methods are used. I have a Golden Retriever, 4 years old, a wonderful and obedient dog I would not want to live without, and I also have a 6 month old Boxer puppy who is the cutest of all dogs. We go to our second set of obedience training and he is doing very well. Both dogs get along great, they play like crazy, and I take them to the park so the little one gets used to all kinds of people, joggers, bicycles, screaming kids etc. I don't think I will ever have a problem with either dog. Of course we treat them as family, and they know I'm the top banana and they are happy in their role as 'lower class'.

I'm sorry you have such problems with your dog, please make sure you find a more suitable family dog if and when you look again. I feel sorry for the dog too, seems like your dog had a bad start even before he/she was born.

[4thedogs]

From the details we have received I don't believe it is the dog but how the dog is being raised.

[Sundanz]

Originally Posted by 4thedogs

From the details we have received I don't believe it is the dog but how the dog is being raised.

Maybe true in this case but your statement that it is not the dog, only the way it's being raised is not always correct. Just look at the pitbulls. I happen to live in an area where some people breed the meanest and most aggressive dogs so the pups will be equally aggressive or worse. There is no way you can take such a pup and expect him/her to become the most loving and kind creature, even with the best of training. Somewhere along the line that aggressiveness will surface,most often unprovoked, and I would hate to be at the end of the stick when that happens. Unfortunately, it has happened in my neighborhood more than once. Why do you suppose people are encouraged to check out breeders, bloodlines etc before buying a pup? It is because traits can be passed on, including aggression/timidity etc. Yes, training can most definitely help but the chance of bad traits to surface at some point is also definitely there. In some breeds more so than in others. What I'm saying is that it is not just or only the owners fault if things go haywire, sometimes it's the poor dog himself who cannot jump over his own shadow because his genes won't let him.

[mireland]

I am astonished! This poor woman has a dog that is biting her, her kids, her neighbors, other dogs and throwing up, peeing and pooping everywhere he goes and you people jump all over her and blame her? Excuse me, but you don't need to be giving advice on a pet forum. Dogs should not bite EVER! Not adults, not kids, not other dogs, period. It is TOTALLY unacceptable. And you are even more unacceptable for essentially condoning the dog bites. It is obvious that this dog has way more problems than she should be expected to handle. She has a responsibility to keep her kids (and others) safe from dog bites and not doing that constitutes child abuse. Talin's owner - I would turn the dog into the rescue without a second thought and if they can't turn the dog around, it needs to be put to sleep before it attacks anyone else. And don't worry, God will bless you for cleaning up poop, pee and throwup for 3 and half years.

[pitgrrl]

A wee bit of an old thread, and one I'd love to read an update on, but just to address the most recent post....

Originally Posted by mireland

Talin's owner - I would turn the dog into the rescue without a second thought and if they can't turn the dog around, it needs to be put to sleep before it attacks anyone else. And don't worry, God will bless you for cleaning up poop, pee and throwup for 3 and half years.

IMHO, when one takes on the responsibility of a dog, it is, barring any truely horrible circumstances, for life. Few of us take our dogs knowing what the next 2/5/10/15 years will bring, but it is reasonable to expect that every dog will have some frustrating trait(s) and/or medical issue at some point, the perfect dog is a myth after all.

What confuses me about the above is the suggestion that the dog should be brought to a rescue "without a second thought". Why is it the rescue's responsibility to deal with other people's problems that they themselves can seek help for? Why should a rescue put in the time and effort to try and deal with these behaviors/possible medical issues and possibly the $ for the services of a behaviorist and not the owner who made the commitment in the first place?
Further, if the decision is reached that the dog is truely a danger and cannot be worked with to resolves these issues, is it not the least an owner can do to hold the dog while it's PTS, rather than putting that onto someone who does rescue and allowing the dog to go with a virtual stranger, rather than the family it's always known?

[Prin]

I totally agree pitgrrl.

When I adopted my dogs, I promised them I would do my absolute best to keep them healthy, happy and safe. If I'm not good enough to do it on my own, it's my responsibility to get them the help they need, whether it be a veterinarian, professional trainer or behaviorist, or any other animal specialist.

Just because you leave a problem for years and let it get really bad, it doesn't mean it's irreversible.

[mireland]

or you would know that I said "without a second thought" after this poor woman had done everything she could to help this obviously psychotic dog. Taking out a "blurb" of what I said - out of context - (pretending not to understand that it was said with the knowledge the woman had done everything possible) only makes you look self-serving.


And I reverse my earlier position and I fully agree, why should she bring the dog to a rescue where some other poor family could be blind-sided and saddled with this? I just brought that up because that seemed to be the general consensus of the group - to take the dog to rescue and give them a chance to rehabilitate before putting the dog down. Although I have no idea how you can rehabilitate a dog from chronic, spontaneous waste elimination.

But you are right - she has a responsibility not to subject others to a horrible future and to be a responsible owner and have the courage to take the dog to be put down herself.

If you are so sure that there is nothing wrong that can't be fixed, why don't you take the dog?

[t.pettet]

Dog's are not disposable but if this owner can't cope then a rescue with their expertise, proper correction methods, dog psychology and years of experience could probably do a good job turning this animal around. This dog deserves a 2nd. chance and if he can be rehabed by a rescue then why not give him that chance instead of ending his life due to one family's inept methods of 'fixing the problem'. Rescues are there for that purpose, to evaluate behaviours and help animals in distress.

[Quins-mum]

Dont get rid of her "Just" because she doesnt fit your idea of the ideal family dog.

I have seen so many tv programmes where ppl get trainers to come into their house and train their dog.. AND IT WORKS!

I hate to be rude, but if you had a child that was unruley or even "god-forbid" disabled, you wouldnt give him way... you would make things work.

I really get pissed off when ppl decide that their animal "Just doenst fit into their life".. Animals are NOT a COMMODITY

[we3beagles]

Not only that, but she got this dog as a puppy and was supposed to mold and shape behaviors and properly socialize their puppy. Sounds like their dog is afraid most of the time and this usually comes down to proper socialization. Instead of "consulting" a trainer they should have been taking obedience classes and socializing classes from the start. For people to think that good dogs are just born is the height of ignorance and dangerous to boot. If you don't want to put in the time and effort required for a dog please don't get one. And to the poster that thinks that it is okay to just give away your dog because they turned out to be the dog that you created, God love your children. I work in rescue and I am constantly bombarded by the ignorant idea that my dog is a "bad one" and needs to be put down. I cannot even tell you the number of dogs I have snagged just before they took their final walk only to be successfully rehomed to loving families that realize that it is a commitment like any other and requires work and time to make it a good one.

[Quins-mum]

Originally Posted by mireland

she has a responsibility not to subject others to a horrible future and to be a responsible owner and have the courage to take the dog to be put down herself.

WHAT!!!!!! Put the dog to sleep!!!!! I am astonished that ANY animal loving person would even consider such a thing!

THERE are ways to help this family...BUT the family needs to WANT to help themselves.

Its not the dogs fault... its an issue that has been bred into the dog since it was a pup!

So lets all just agree... put the dog to sleep and we can all go back to our happy little sugar-coated lives- NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

GET a grip...get motivated and get the dog trained!

[Quins-mum]

the thing is... that this poor dog has probably already been put to sleep as we havent heard anything more!
Some ppl should NOT have pets.

[zizi]

I'm shocked that so many forum members are eating this lady alive... it's clear to me that neither her family or her dog are good for each other. She's totally in over her head and seems like she's sought out a lot of help before making her decision (and lasted three and a half years with a dog who would be a nightmare for any owner.)

This illustrates so well why we have to be so careful about where we get dogs from, so we can make sure they have a good temperament. It sounds like the dog was just unfortunately not bred with this quality in mind, and had enormous difficulties with socialization with humans and animals. There is only so much an owner can do, some of it is actually up to the dog, even with the best behaviourists.

I think in this case you really have to consider both the well being of the owner - AND of the dog. With an unsuitable owner this dog is never going to have a chance to fulfill its potential (if that's possible.) Further it sounds like these owners are fairly responsible & experienced (at least the husband) but unfortunately but have reached the limit of their abilities... at this point there is no bond between them and this is harmful to both the owners and the dog. I think it's much better to take the dog to a rescue, try to find him/her a loving home with an owner who is upfront, aware of the problems the dog has, and ready to face that challenge head on, than having a busy family be frustrated over and over again.

The owners were irresponsible in getting the dog and maybe made some mistakes in its upbringing. That's their fault. It sucks for all concerned, especially the dog who probably never should have been bred in the first place. However, at this point, there is little future for this dog with this family. It's better for all concerned if the dog can find a more suitable owner (one hopes ) and if the owners can maybe raise a dog, from a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER, who may be more adaptable to their environment.

It is sad and inexcusable but people make mistakes when they adopt dogs... I think it is better that these are acknowledged, and that the dog is rehomed, for all concerned. Yes, a dog is for life... but it's cruel to keep a dog in an inappropriate home with inappropriate owners, just because we believe in this principle.

[Quins-mum]

well Zizi, the hard cold fact of the matter is, the none of us have heard what has happened to this dog, and is prob in puppy heaven.

I dont think that any of us have ever taken the piss out of the poster, we are just concerned about what happenes to the dog, is that such a sin? the dog only knows what it has been taught, its not the dogs fault in anyway.

[Edgewaters]

My first option with a dog like that would always be to rule out medical causes like a brain tumour or Cushing's Disease or something similar. Sending a dog with a brain tumour or an undiagnosed case of CD to a trainer is just plain unfair.

[marko]

The Op has not returned to this thread. It has run it's course and will be closed.

Thanks

Marko
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