Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog training - dog behavior

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 11th, 2011, 02:24 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
Pro Poop Scooper!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sunniest City In Canada!
Posts: 1,496
Dominance Based Trainers!

What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old March 11th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Jim Hall Jim Hall is offline
Kitty pimp
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: paterson new jersey
Posts: 4,788
YOU WILLDO WAHT I SAY OR I WILL GrAB YOU AND HURL YOU TO THE GROUND DO IT NOW AND NO BACKTALK DOYA HEAR ME??? i ahve had dogs all of them form the pund and never ever had to use dominance traing
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 11th, 2011, 04:48 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
There are so many different types of trainers with different philosophies and methods.
I have always said to keep an open mind. I always mix it up. I am not a treat trainer..BUT if nothing else works than I most certainly will resort to it. I find it very sad that trainers stick to one method (their method) and not go outside the box. I find it very informative and also enlightening to take different courses or watch different trainers 'do their thing'. I like to incorporate many different ideas and I would never stick to one method..it does not always work.
It is important for those taking courses to feel comfortable about how their trainer are working with their dogs. If something does not sit right with you..then get another.
For me personally, I will at times resort to a more 'dominent' approach if required. Really, it depends on the dog, the issue you are dealing with and the limitations of the dog.
People however are getting alittle too sensitive with a more direct approach to training. Some dogs require a more hands or they may require a harder lined method.
I do not believe in clicker training for obedience. With that said..if I was failing in all other avenues I certainly would try it.
I my opinion all trainers or those that train have something very valuable to share. All dogs are different and the key to success is finding out what the triggers are (if we are dealing with issues) and then finding a remedy to help the dog overcome.
I say 'mix it up' and don't get stuck with training only one way.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old March 11th, 2011, 06:49 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
Pro Poop Scooper!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sunniest City In Canada!
Posts: 1,496
I find it gets all very confusing! I use a clicker, mostly for teaching tricks. I haven't really worked on the obedience type things lately. I would like to once the weather gets to where I can work outside...too cold still!!

I may be moving to a part of the province where there are rattlesnakes...I want to teach Bayley that snakes are to be left alone. She's seen a couple of snakes in her lifetime. One, a big rat snake, hissed at her when she went to sniff it and she backed right off. Now I've heard alot train snake avoidance using an e-collar. I have the collar, just not sure I want to use it, but like some have said, if it's a matter of saving the dog's life then you do what you have to.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 11th, 2011, 06:52 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 304
Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 11th, 2011, 07:03 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choochi View Post
Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.
Very true. Just like anything else in life, things evolve. Training is not only a talent but it is intuition. The most important thing about training is not just the training itself but understanding the pre-dominent breed in the dog, his/her limitations, capacity to understand, and how or what is responsive to the dog. Understanding behaviour is the most important thing to identify..and then train based on this understanding and also by appreciating the dogs qualities. All this must also fall within the confines of the capacity of the handler who will be following through with the advice and the training suggestions provided...(does this make sense?)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
Sylvie's Avatar
Sylvie Sylvie is offline
Senior Contributor
Space Invaders Champion, Smack the Rabbit Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caledonia, Ontario
Posts: 1,515
Benmax, I totally agree with you. If you don't understand the dog, then it doesn't matter what you do. Each dog is different . My four each have a different personality, ranging from soft right up to arrogant. Each needs their own brand of training.

I also agree that some people think they know how to train just by watching t.v. or listening to other people. It is really a hands on learning from the dogs that makes training a success. Am I making sense???
__________________
Sylvie

Owned by

Bree 11 year old GSD
Keesha 6 year old GSD
Cyrus 7 year old GSD


RIP: All my angels.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 11th, 2011, 10:38 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: A Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.

Maybe they only have access to books from the 1930s?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 11th, 2011, 10:40 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: A Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
I am not a treat trainer..
Nobody is, they were invented by the jerk trainers to demean a principle (not method) they don't understand.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 12th, 2011, 06:50 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
For special needs dogs (deaf for example)..treat training or reward training is a good method.
Also - don't forget...custom dogs are actually trained with a reward (usually a ball or toy). Their basic training however is not reward motivated..it's real hands on work.
So in this example you actually see two methods of training used for obedience and integrating a job.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old March 14th, 2011, 01:03 AM
tenderfoot's Avatar
tenderfoot tenderfoot is offline
Senior Contributor - Expert
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,249
Talking

I agree the 'positive' trainers can be some of the most vicious people when dealing with other people than many of the trainers who use 'other' methods with their dogs. Did that make sense? I was on a 'positive only' forum for about a year and have never witnessed such arrogance and rudeness in my life. Yet a local man who runs a shock collar training company is a very nice person, I shudder at the things he considers training a dog but he is nice to people. Go figure, the world is a crazy place.
Just be sure that you can sleep well at the end of your day knowing you have done the best for your dog.
Many methods will work with the majority of dogs, but if you have been unfair to your dog then you need to rethink your methods.
Personally I don't think anyone can guarantee 100% predictability with any dog. Heck, I can't promise that I will perform perfectly 100% of the time.
__________________
Love Them & Lead Them,
~Elizabeth & Doug
www.TenderfootTraining.com
Dog Training the Way Nature Intended
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old March 14th, 2011, 01:12 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
Pro Poop Scooper!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sunniest City In Canada!
Posts: 1,496
Good point Tenderfoot..we expect our dogs to be perfect..perfect stay, perfect recall etc!

If you've been unfair to your dog..look out..they are truly one who could bite you in the butt

I use different things too, I'm not always 100% positive based. I will give a correction, especially if she's just being a total i-dot and not paying attention. I do make exceptions, if she's being silly cause she's excited, I wait. Doesn't take her long to calm down anymore. I guess it all boils down to knowing your dog!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old March 14th, 2011, 03:06 PM
millitntanimist's Avatar
millitntanimist millitntanimist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kitchener, ON
Posts: 129
I have 2 problems with the "dominance" philosophy. The first (and really the most important) is that it is based on some terrible and outdated science. The second is that it can be the vehicle for some very harsh P+ because the only solution to a "dominant" dog not responding to your "dominance" is an escalation of your punishment (I am speaking generally here, I know that there are some trainers for whom this is absolutely not the case, but in my experience they are few and far between).

I also find it uncomfortable that a large number of people who have no knowledge of dog behavior or learning theory seem to grab onto it because it is such a simple concept to digest and it puts the reader in a "natural" place of superiority.

This concept of "dominance" actually has very little to do with dogs, but rather, is a natural byproduct of our colonialist heritage. Imposing a social hierarchy and working desperately to maintain our position at the top of said hierarchy (which is always in danger of being toppled) is nothing new.

I am reading a great book ("At Home, A History of Private Life) that contains excerpts from some hard-line etiquette books published in the 1800's. The chapters regarding one's behavior towards servants and slaves (and in some cases, women) read frighteningly like many manuals on dog training, stating things like "they crave your natural leadership," and that "you must always show your superiority (usually through punishment or the excision of your privileges flagrantly in their presence) or your servant/slave will attempt to take power and overthrow you." There are excerpts discussing a servant's/slave's inherent "wildness" and as such they must be treated more harshly to keep them subdued. There are even sections on what position your servant/slave should take walking with you in public and such warnings as "if they will hold your gaze for more than a moment they are showing their defiance," thus you must re-assert your dominance.

As a student of history, I am always amazed by our inability to develop new ideas, and at our utter ignorance in thinking that we have
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old March 14th, 2011, 04:51 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
Pro Poop Scooper!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sunniest City In Canada!
Posts: 1,496
Wow!! That book must be a real eye-opener! I'll have to have a look for it, sounds like a very interesting read!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:17 PM
Stinkycat's Avatar
Stinkycat Stinkycat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 161
Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:25 PM
akaJenT's Avatar
akaJenT akaJenT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: california
Posts: 31
I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:48 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkycat View Post
Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.
I actually like what you wrote. The only thing I will however challenge is the thought that dominance in dogs is rare. For those that work in shelters or rescues, we see more cases of dominance than I guess a trainer will get. BTW - I am NOT randomly labelling a dog as dominant..just so that we are clear on this.
As far as preparing a dominant dog up for adoption, the approach most times is the quick method based on what the dog responds to immediately. Unfortunately at times there is no time to get a dog ready using only positive reinforcement. Infact, in situations like dominence, it could ultimately cost a dog it's life as the shelters start to fill up. 'Keep the good..unload the bad'. I do not believe in bad dogs..just dogs that require more work..and time just does not permit this.
If you have the time, and the resources, and the clientele, then yes...great way to teach through positive training.

Kudos to you.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:55 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by akaJenT View Post
I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.
can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 04:03 PM
akaJenT's Avatar
akaJenT akaJenT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: california
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.
If you have a submissive dog, you'll never need to. Mine is a huge husky/rott mix, very alpha and always testing the limits. I'm not as familiar with huskies as I'd like to be but I don't think they're known for gentleness. Rottweilers are GREAT family dogs and I'm hoping he takes after that breed.

I think Rufio might actually try to bite me the next time we have a showdown on whether he gets rinsed off the next time I take him to the bay where he jumps up to his neck in quicksand-type scum that reeks and wears like black tar. Last time I caved after a slight rinse and he just had to stay outside a few days. Next time I plan to put on his harness and rope him off like my friend does with her horse so I can clean him up and let him inside...if I ever take him there again, still not sure. He just loves it so much though.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 04:58 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,248
but what is the reason for growling into his/her neck??? whats it suppose to do?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:04 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
I have to tell you...I would not be flipping my Anatolean and growling in his neck anytime soon. I am not sure what this would prove and I really would not recommend doing this. What would be the benefits of doing this? I have never heard of doing this as a measure to correct a behaviour.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:11 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,248
oh, so you're saying BenMax that growling in a dogs neck is a correction? like a punishment sort of???
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
I have to tell you...I would not be flipping my Anatolean and growling in his neck anytime soon. I am not sure what this would prove and I really would not recommend doing this. What would be the benefits of doing this? I have never heard of doing this as a measure to correct a behaviour.
It started in the 60s/70s where the theory was to gain your dog's respect you had to assert yourself as the pack leader by acting like a dominant dog. It is based on you being a social companion to your dog, rather than being a provider of food and privileges; where in fact you are both.

Acting like a dominant dog and trying to flip your Anatolian on his back would probably either prove that he is more successful at being a dog than you are, or would prove to you that dogs really can laugh out loud.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:15 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
oh, so you're saying BenMax that growling in a dogs neck is a correction? like a punishment sort of???
I am not sure Melinda. That is what I would like to know. I think this is one of those 'treat them like the pack would'. I honestly have never heard of this before. To put your face near a dog that has questionable intentions (still not determined nor confirmed in this case), I would NEVER get up that close and personal. Years ago I had almost half my face bitten off saving a dog. Learnt my lesson big time and have still existing puncture marks to prove it. Not pretty.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:33 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,248
yeah I'm with you BenMax, I don't think I'd be putting my face that close to a dog after flipping him,

SamIam *L* yeah, I can see a huge dog laughing at us trying to do just that *L*
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 05:54 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
yeah I'm with you BenMax, I don't think I'd be putting my face that close to a dog after flipping him,

SamIam *L* yeah, I can see a huge dog laughing at us trying to do just that *L*
I weigh 110lbs. The Anatolian is 155 lbs. Now I am certainly not the sharpest pencil in the box...but I would not want to be red in the face up against him. I hardly think he would laugh...put me over his knee...absolutely followed by a 'silly Girl'!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 06:36 PM
babymomma's Avatar
babymomma babymomma is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,171
my .2 cents .

I do not like the "dominance theory" my dogs know i am a human. They know i am not a dog and they do not treat me as i am a dog.
Its not that i dont agree that sometimes, you have to take control of your dog, because they tend to think they can do whatever, but it is not because they are trying to "dominate me" or be a "packleader"
I certainly will never agree with the neck jabs and the alpha rolling. And i will NEVER use anything but positive reinforcment on a dog showing agression. Ive done it once before and now realize why its so bad. It set us back months on training.

If you use agression to treat agression, the agression will only get worse.
I know dogs arent humans, but this is the way i see it .

Say you are mad at somebody, and you try to talk to the about it but you are so mad you start yelling, well that other person is likely going to yell back because they get defensive and angry as well. They start yelling and that p*sses you off even more so you start yelling louder and it escalates. Its an endless cycle until somebody gets mad enough that they just leave. And both are left fuming.

You try to alpharole a dog, or give it a neck jab, or whatever other techniques that could be considered agressive or uncomofortable for a dog, the dog is likely going to get worse.

Now using cesar millan as an example, he uses these, and things ALWAYS get worse with the dog, it escalates into a big explosion from the dog then BAMM, the dog is suddenly fixed.Problem solved right? erm, no. It isnt. The problem has been masked, a sort of "sweeping it under the rug" situation. The dogs frustration, causes the dogs to shut down. I dont know if you've ever watched the show with the volume off so you can recognize the dogs body language instead of listening to all the carp CM is pumping out. These are NOT happy dogs.
There is a reason the disclaimer comes on the t.v before the show starts "Do NOT try these techniques at home"
Dont get me wrong, I thought CM was a god at one point. But certain things in life that i have experienced has taught me otherwise. Actually learning more about it from MANY experienced trainers has helped me.

That said, when im training, i use a scattered collar pop, but its with certain dogs. Certain dogs need it, not because they try to "dominate me" but because they are more, Hardheaded and "stubborn" i will say. They need little more hands on type stuff. Take keely for example, if i try a collar pop on her, she shuts down immediently. which means training session over because my dog has officaially shut down.

Training should be a FUN and enjoyable situation for all thats involved. A dog shouldnt be made uncomfortable.

I am a positive based trainer, but i do not always use treats, but there is ALWAYS a reward for good behaviour. Your dog should WANT to work for you and want to please you. How else can you honestly expect them to want to if rewards arent envolved? Sure they will do it if trained a different way, but in my experience the dog is not close to half as eager to please you.

Treats are used in our actual training sessions, time that i take out of my day specifically to work on tricks, or recall, down stays etc.

But its not like my dogs dont listen to me the other 80 % of the time when we are outside and i want them to come back, they certainly do not look back when i call them and be like "You haz no treats silly human, i dun want no parts of this" . My dogs all come bounding back happy as clams if i call them. They get no treats but they sure enjoy a "good dog" and a pat on the head.

Thats just what i have experienced and what they have taught me.
Thanks for reading
Now... Click/treat! for actually getting through it.

Ask me something if it is unclear. I LOVE discussions about training
__________________
Keely - Yorkie
Haley - German Shepherd
Casey - version 2.0 - Black lab
Jasper - White cat

R.I.P Casey #1.
Gone but never ever forgotten.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 06:43 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,191
Babymomma this is a perfect example of people who are considering training and only having one method to work with. Training methods should not be generic. Through time and experience you will see that you will need to mix things up based on the individual dog.

Click/treat....not unless I have to...but that goes to show that though I am not into this method..I would never turn my back on it either.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old March 24th, 2011, 12:22 AM
Criosphynx's Avatar
Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
sempervivum
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 55
I use one method. The same as everyone uses. Whether they know it or not




learning theory.





I just only use two of the four quadrants of it....ok, three, occasionally.


"positive" trainers vary, in both results and methods.. Can you get reliable behaviors across the board all the time with only PR (as in only reward good behavior, and ignore the rest). No. You need to used Negative punishment (removing som'thing the dog wants) premack (do this thing you don't like, and I'll let you do that thing you like) management and redirections (you are not having access to that thing yet, or "do this instead) none of those things involve physically harming or "making uncomfortable" the dog.


What I do NOT do is physically punish the dog. I do not scold or intimidate the dog.I do NOT use NRMs (no reward markers, uh uhs, "nos" etc) studies have shown these things are not needed to learn, and can impair learning.



I do teach a SOLID foundation. Hand targeting is taught first. Doggie zen and its yer choice next...all behaviors are methodically proofed for distraction and duration (if needed)

Default behviors. My dogs do not need cues to look at me, leave it, loose leash, etc etc...too many people put these things on cue...teach attention as a DEFAULT and you will have a different dog.


I understand the mechanics of every nuance of behavior. THAT is why I can use "PR only" (which never purely is PR) with massive success. I've taken the time to master it...It takes time, practice and skill to develop. Many seminars and books. Many hundreds of hours reading studies and watching videos...6 dogs and counting (first dog was traditional trained, others in between and my 6th dog, my reactive, high drive mess when I got him, has never had one correction in 2 years (hes two) and its as close to "perfect" as I expect from an animal)


There are many methods within the "pr" umbrella. If you can master learning theory, and all its tricks, teach the dog proofed foundation behaviors, and manage while they learn its VERY VERY possible to teach using no force or intimidation, and have reliable behaviors.... the retriever people say you MUST force fetch to get a reliable retrieve. If I can teach a RR to CHIHUAHUAS with clicker training. Labs do not need to be FF.

If zoos can teach hyenas to willingly allow blood draws from the jugular using clicker training...the limits are endless

So my point is don't judge PR trainers when you are viewing the noobs and inbetweeners....watch those that have mastered it. You wouldn't look at kids learning a violin and say, yup, thats as good as it gets.... you'd go to the symphony.

Last edited by Criosphynx; March 24th, 2011 at 12:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old March 24th, 2011, 12:34 AM
Stinkycat's Avatar
Stinkycat Stinkycat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Criosphynx View Post
So my point is don't judge PR trainers when you are viewing the noobs and inbetweeners....watch those that have mastered it. You wouldn't look at kids learning a violin and say, yup, thats as good as it gets.... you'd go to the symphony.
Wonderfully said!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12 AM.