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Old February 9th, 2011, 07:50 AM
jencell jencell is offline
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Evo Dry and phosphorous

Hi all

need your thoughts on this....

My cats eat a diet of both wet and dry food, 50% wet, 50% dry (recommended by my vet) I give no grain wet food like wellness, evo, and merrick.
For dry I give Evo and alternate sometimes with Orijen.

Grain free dry food are high in phosphorous, in long term can this be dangerous? Since it's not their 100% diet I'm not too concerned but i've read that in long term it's not good for kidneys...

Do you think I should give a lower phosphorous dry food, like Intova or other good quality dry, even though there are grains....? They have less phosphorous by half of the no grain versions....

thanks!!
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Old February 9th, 2011, 11:46 AM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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My opinion is to stop feeding kibble, despite what your vet recommends. There is no such thing as a "good quality" dry. Some are less bad than others, but why even go that route if you don't have to? Your cats like wet food, so stick with that. Maybe try introducing some bits of fresh meat (raw or lightly cooked) as treats if you haven't already.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 02:15 PM
jencell jencell is offline
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thanks for your opinion.

However, after reading almost everything on cat nutrition on the net (drove me almost cazy because didn't know what to do anymore), I chose to trust him beacause he's awesome and believe in a balanced approach .
And he doesn't vaccinate , which is rare for a vet...
This is the third vet for my cats, because my male cat has ',rolling skin syndrome' and he's the only one who found it and treated him...all the others were incompetent...!

So for my cats he recommends this combination and plenty of fresh food for treats...

my question was about phosphorous level....there must be some people who feed a mix of wet and dry food here?....
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Old February 9th, 2011, 05:28 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jencell View Post
I chose to trust him beacause he's awesome and believe in a balanced approach .
That's fabulous that you found a great vet that you like and who has a balanced approach. It can certainly be difficult! But I hope you realize that vets can not be experts at every single aspect of feline health, and nutrition tends to be the "expendable crew member".

Just curious, why does your vet think cats should eat some dry food?

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Originally Posted by jencell View Post
my question was about phosphorous level.....
The phosphorus levels in EVO are too high. Will it cause damage to your cats? We don't know. What we do know are the phosphorus requirements for normal healthy adult felines - about 70mg/kg of body weight per day. So if you have a 5kg cat (11 lbs), that would be about 350mg. EVO dry has 396 mg of phosphorus per 100 kcal. If the above mentioned 5kg cat is eating an average of 275 kcal/day of EVO, that's a whopping 1089 mg of phosphorus per day. More than 3 times the required amount. Now of course that will be a little less if you're also feeding wet food, but EVO has 612 calories per cup. So it would have to be a miniscule amount of EVO.

Should you feed a different dry food instead, one that has grains, in order to lower the phosphorus? Well I don't personally think that's a very good trade-off, considering all the problems we know carbohydrates can cause. But it's your choice.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 06:33 PM
jencell jencell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
That's fabulous that you found a great vet that you like and who has a balanced approach. It can certainly be difficult! But I hope you realize that vets can not be experts at every single aspect of feline health, and nutrition tends to be the "expendable crew member".
Just curious, why does your vet think cats should eat some dry food?

The phosphorus levels in EVO are too high. Will it cause damage to your cats? We don't know. What we do know are the phosphorus requirements for normal healthy adult felines - about 70mg/kg of body weight per day. So if you have a 5kg cat (11 lbs), that would be about 350mg. EVO dry has 396 mg of phosphorus per 100 kcal. If the above mentioned 5kg cat is eating an average of 275 kcal/day of EVO, that's a whopping 1089 mg of phosphorus per day. More than 3 times the required amount. Now of course that will be a little less if you're also feeding wet food, but EVO has 612 calories per cup. So it would have to be a miniscule amount of EVO.

Should you feed a different dry food instead, one that has grains, in order to lower the phosphorus? Well I don't personally think that's a very good trade-off, considering all the problems we know carbohydrates can cause. But it's your choice.
You are certainly right! i'm very glad that I found him, did a lot of research...
As for the reason for the dry food, thanks to its composition the dry component completes wet food and helps keeping the cat’s teeth and gums in good health. Like if they eat a mouse, they eat ''wet part'' but also dry part (bones etc..)

They are about 10 pound each so here what they eat
1/4 cup per day of dry food = 150kcal
1/4 + 1/8 Wet food = 60-75 kcal
treats...yogourt, lightly cooked or raw chicken or beef, sardines (in water), salmon sometimes

so they eat about 225 kcal ...excluding treats. so dry food is a small part, that lowers the phosphorous content of just dry food....

thanks for the information about phosphorous requirement of an adult cat.

Last edited by jencell; February 9th, 2011 at 06:43 PM.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 07:44 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Originally Posted by jencell View Post
i'm very glad that I found him, did a lot of research...
I have to commend you for wanting to do what's best for your kitties and for doing all this research. The minimal-to-no vaccine thing will give your guys a major health advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jencell View Post
As for the reason for the dry food, thanks to its composition the dry component completes wet food and helps keeping the cat’s teeth and gums in good health. Like if they eat a mouse, they eat ''wet part'' but also dry part (bones etc..)
Ah, I see now. That would be great if that was actually the case, but dry food is as far removed from any semblance of bone as one can get. It really doesn't do a thing for dental health, and can actually be detrimental. Those starchy nuggets just shatter when bitten into (that is when they aren't being swallowed whole) and the pieces are easily trapped between teeth and under gum-lines, giving bacteria a nice sugary food source. For cleaning teeth, you have 2 options: get your cats used to having them brushed, or start feeding them the bones and resilient meats (like gizzards) that would be keeping their teeth clean in nature.

Some more info to check out on this topic:
http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/d...ean-the-teeth/

And the link to an article by Dr. Shawn Messonnier is broken, but here is the text:

Quote:
Question: "Can you address the issue of diet and dental disease? I feed my cat canned cat food. She loves it and will have nothing to do with dry food. Several of my pet-owning friends say that a diet of exclusively canned food will make her teeth go bad. They say she needs dry food to help prevent dental decay. I disagree with them. What is your advice?"

Answer: What a great question! Many veterinarians, including myself, were taught that dry food was better for the teeth due to the abrasive action of the pellets. However, clinical experience over the last few years has shown this to be a myth. For example, just about every pet needs its teeth cleaned at least once a year, yet most of these pets are eating dry food. Obviously the dry food is not preventing dental disease. I see no difference in my own practice in the amount of dental disease regardless of type of diet.

Several references I consulted on diet and dental disease agree. For example, in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, the authors state, "Although consumption of soft foods may promote plaque accumulation, the general belief that dry foods provide significant oral cleansing should be regarded with skepticism. A moist food may perform similarly to a typical dry food in affecting plaque, stain and calculus accumulation. Typical dry dog and cat foods contribute little dental cleansing." In the Journal of Veterinary Dentistry (September 1996) the author states that "In a large survey, dogs consuming dry food alone did not consistently demonstrate improved periodontal health when compared with dogs eating moist foods."

Interestingly, my clients who feed their pets raw foods plus meaty bones for chewing report the least amount of dental disease, many of these pets do not always require an annual dental cleaning. And finally, the speed with which dental disease occurs in dogs seems to be related to breed and size; most large-breed dogs do not need their teeth cleaned as often as their smaller counterparts. New recommendations on feeding cats encourage wet food to increase water consumption and decrease the chance of diseases such as diabetes, as canned food most closely mimics the natural diet of cats. The best thing you can do to control dental disease is to regularly brush your pet's teeth, and have a professional cleaning whenever needed. So tell your friends that they can feed whatever kind of food they wish, but that your cat is eating the most appropriate diet."

Sincerely,
Shawn Messonnier, D.V.M.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 08:53 PM
jencell jencell is offline
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very interesting! thanks for this.

I've been brushing their teeth since I got them, very young, they are used to it and love the seafood flavor of the toothpaste..ehhe they think it's a treat..so I brush their teeth regularly....!
well I really don't know why my vet believes that...I will ask him for sure...

he also said to give fresh food eveyday, which i've been doing. before they were fed 100% dry upon recommendation of the breeder...well I didn't know at that time...i think now they eat a lot better but it can be improved for sure!

you gave me things to think about for sure

thanks
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