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Old May 11th, 2005, 09:36 AM
Eleni Eleni is offline
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yep thats pretty much how i feel.

I lvoe cats, but I dont beleive new breeds should be created till there is a way to home all the ones on the street, and sitting in shelters

"I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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Old May 11th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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I have a very controversial view on the over population of cats , and so I will not go into that.
There are some ppl out there, that do not want 'just a cat' though .. the want a siamese, or a sphynx, or another rare breed that you probably won't find in kitten form in a rescuse. There is still a demand for these breeds, even with the over population of those 'noamrl' rescuse cats.
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Old May 11th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Siamese cats were first brought to North America in the 1800's. It's believed they have been around for centuries.

I don't think anyone has any objections to responsible people who work on a breed out love and passion for that breed.

I think the objections arise when someone says "It's a business". Creating pets to make money is not very ethical, and not something a truly responsible breeder would ever do.
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Old May 11th, 2005, 10:44 AM
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mona_b mona_b is offline
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Originally Posted by Safyre
There are some ppl out there, that do not want 'just a cat' though .. the want a siamese, or a sphynx, or another rare breed that you probably won't find in kitten form in a rescuse. There is still a demand for these breeds,
I agree...But the difference here is that these breeds of cats already exist and have been for many many years.And the reputable breeders of these breeds are not pumping out these breeds cause of high demands.No reputable breeder would do that.They will breed only once a year,twice at the max.And people who are looking for these breeds will go to a reputable breeder.And you would be very surprised as to how many of these purebred cats/kittens are in rescues.

I am still waiting to hear what the price tag is for this breed.
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Old May 11th, 2005, 11:59 AM
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Cactus Flower Cactus Flower is offline
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The fact of the matter is that there are very few "natural" breeds of dogs or cats. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. Most of the recognised breeds that we have today were bred much like this woman describes in the breeding of these kitties.
Very true, Lavender Rott. Most all breeds of cats and dogs were created by us at some point in time, otherwise we'd still be running with wild dogs, wolves, cougars and bobcats . But I think that the majority of these breeds were created in a more archaic environment, where education about spaying/neutering and pet overpopulation was not as prevelant as it is today- if at all.
The Siamese has been mentioned as having been here since the 1800's. I don't think that people in the 1800's had the means to measure cat overpopulation across the nation, and I have to wonder what their spay/neuter demand was back then.
I think that, given our ability to communicate and recognize the problems of today, we have a responsibility now to not contribute to them.

Just my opinion, Lavender, with respect .
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Old May 11th, 2005, 02:37 PM
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CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
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Re: Don't you have a Siamese? Thats a fairly new breed too!

The Siamese is a very old and traditional breed - some historians speculate they existed in Egypt. They became big in the 1800's when they were brough to England by some official of Siam or given as a gift - it's a sttessfull day (they ALL are lately, sigh!) and I forget just now the exact story and do not have time to search. Your comment isd like saying I have a labrador and that is the same as having a labradoodle. I guess the tokinese and even the ragdoll are examples of cats that began their lives as mutations but whose "owners" happened to be cat fanciers and so continued the trend. There may have been many other mutations out there or unplanned matings but not among fanciers per se.

That is very different imho than actually planning to CREATE an ENTIRELY NEW BREED! I am opposed to that on ethical grounds and think it probably should be banned if it done for profit.

This isa very brief form of what I really want to say,
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Old October 17th, 2007, 02:23 PM
grumpnot grumpnot is offline
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Toyger article

National Geographic has a page on the Toyger at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...rs-photos.html
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Old October 19th, 2007, 08:13 PM
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CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
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I have listened to both sides of the T debate and have friends on both sides so won't comment on it. It is a breed and like the Sphynx breed - which was not engineered but a mutation alike many - I suspect that is how the Siamese came to be as well - as did so many cat breeds - but I am not fond of specifically creating a specific breed to satisfy humans. What does it do for the cat?

However, of one wants a Toyger, I suppose that's all well and good. Keep in mind they are not yet accepted by all groups in Canada. I do worry about this statement on one of the official pages about them:

The toyger cat is a domestic tiger-look a-like. It is a designer breed o f cat bred with the demands of modern apartment life as a human companion foremost in mind. Glittered, pelted, dramatic pattern appeals to both the high-tech glamour and nature-loving, wild dreams of city-caught people. The laid back, easily trained character of these cats make them a joy to live with.

The toyger cat is a breed in development. Recognized by The International Cat Association ( TICA ) for Registration the goals for the breed are long term. Several of the features proposed for the Toyger cat have never before been recognized as possible in a domestic cat. Progress is slow but steady in all areas from companionability to appearance.

Again, why create a cat FOR humans? should we not be developing better breeds FOR the cat's benefit??????? Just my take on it as an ardent cat lover!

I see no difference between a tabby and a toyager except human intervention and cost. And of course, any scientists who claims s/he can guarantee the personality of a cat is needs to reread the principles of scientific ethiocs.

Just mho!
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Old October 20th, 2007, 08:55 PM
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ancientgirl ancientgirl is offline
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What I want to know is, what do they mean by "altered"? How do they alter some of the undesirables?
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Old October 21st, 2007, 04:15 PM
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Kristin7 Kristin7 is offline
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I haven't read all the posts, but 'altered' often means spayed or neutered. I think that's probably the meaning, but didn't see where that was.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 06:01 PM
sarsnake sarsnake is offline
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Originally Posted by KiraceToygers View Post
I have read, and in many cases re-read posts, and it finally dawned on me. This isn't about Toygers, this is about new breeds. Someone mentioned how they liked Bengals, but they never noted that the Bengal was a designed breed. If they had, they likely would have known that the lady quite responsible for Bengals, is the mother of the woman at the forefront of designing Toygers.

Each show we run into judges that just tolerate judging new breeds and new traits. They are not interested in the work being done, nor progress being made. They do what the "have" to do and get it over with. That seems frankly to be the attitude here.

I have mentioned in most of my posts, that while there is a written standard as per requirements of TICA, there has not been a single Toyger fully meet the standard. Frankly there are traits in our standard that we are aware of the difficulty in meeting. Take for example the smaller, rounded ears...you do not find this in any species of domestic cat, thus there is going to be a problem. That is whay as I mentioned earlier, that this is a work in progress.

When I call a Toyger either better or not, I am merely judging it by its distance from the standard. Like the Bengal when it started, and even breeds like the Sphynx and Tonkinese that earlier seemed to be being fawned over had to be worked on, and you still get better and not in the breed. That is why you see some shown as Championship, some as Alter, and even some as Household Pet.

I will be the first to admit, there are designer breeds out there that do not interest me, as far as owning or breeding. The Napoleon Cat comes to mind. But you know what, I have to accept that there are those who will in fact want just that breed. Just as there will be those who want Toygers, or Maine Coons, or Persians, ad nauseum.

People have in this thread made such a fuss over the number of unwanted cats. I agree it is a problem. I have a house full of rescues and a colony of ferals I care for and get meds for, and get altered. But the "breeders" you seem to fret over are not just in cats, you will find them in dogs, horses, etc. The Toyger breeders I know, and I have dealt with most on one level or another, are uniform in their caring for the welfare primarily of all their Toygers.

Most have requirements of talking to vets, meeting the person, and more before there is ever a definite sell. I would never sell to someone, who when I called a vet, I obtained a less than stellar recommendation on. Nor would there be a transaction where the person had no direction as to where they wanted to go, what they were looking for.

Someone asked the price we sold Toygers for. I see no need to get into that issue as there is no interest here even in the success of the breed. With no interest in the breed, any amount will be to much.

But in closing, the main thing is I love working with Toygers, wouldn't prefer any other breed. Whether we ever make it to a "Championship" breed or not, I love our breed, and in the end that matters more than whether anyone accepts the breed or not.

I know it's an old thread but I feel I have to say something.

It seems for you it's a business and one thing you don't realize is that it's not ethical to create a breed, period. Especially, not with cats. Cats have been domesticated by humans to hunt vermin. All cats hunt, regardless of breed.

Dogs - different story and people do create breeds for various purposes (such as for walking the blind), useful purposes not just to have a tiger look alike on your lap when you watch TV.

I wrote to Judy last year and she didn't even reply to me. It seems that you guys will do anything for a buck. I read something to effect of "you want to observe wild tiger behaviour in you home? Get a Toyger!" on toygers site. What a bunch of horse manure! All cats exhibit the same type of behaviour. They all hunt, they all kill, they all ambush in one way or another.

Another problem I have with this breed is the name - Toyger. It's not a toy, it's a live being.

You write that you have a bunch of rescued cats, good on you. But don't you see that by creating another breed you further making the problem of unwanted cats worse?

Why do you need a house cat with round ears???? Is there an actual purpose to that?

And lastly, you never addressed what happens to the kittens created in the process of breeding?

Truly, I am disgusted.

As far as appearance goes, it's tabby. A regular tabby. Rescue one from SPCA - you will be doing everyone a favor.

Creating new breeds, unless needed for a valid purpose should be outlawed.
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