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Old August 9th, 2010, 01:40 PM
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chico2 chico2 is offline
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Erykah,TM,$600.000

I was just reading and seeing a video at Yahoo about Tibetan Mastiffs in China they sell for as much as $600.000very popular in China(unfortunately)they say it is a new craze.
A chicken-farmer stopped selling chickens and is now breeding TM..
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Old August 9th, 2010, 10:36 PM
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Its true Chico, sad but true.
I have heard of some going for more than $600 000.00 in china, and there was a "breeder' on kijiji in toronto this spring selling "exclusively bred in his compound in Tibet TM's" for upwards of $20 000.00
I emailed him and drilled him about the dogs, acting like Iwas of the elite that would pay that money for a dog. The price quickly sky rocketed to $500 000.00 for one of the best of the best pups he had in Tibet.
Once I blew him out of the water with health testing requirements that were mandatory for what I was looking for to compliment my Karma he immediately stopped talking to me.
When I sent my pup to Hong Kong, the family who purchased him said they loved the breed but the one he had purchased in China had ot be put down at 5 months of age due to crippling hip dysplasia which is why he was looking to import. He is on a neuter contract so no worries there, plus its already been done and his neuter deposit has been returned to him ( recieved proof from vet procedure was completed)
One thing that is good about our stud book being closed right now is that as long as people actually insist on AKC or Can KC registration we will not have any of the health problems that are being produced over there added to our lines.
One breeder has chinese lines in Canada and I hope they do not import anything for a while, they are not registered with either kennel club and are bred here and sold kind of secretly. this worries me, especially when i still had a male pup available here.
I had one woman email me looking for a stud dog for her female, I humored the idea but she could not give me pedigree information on her bitch or even tell me which breeder she came from so I said No that my male would not be sold on breeding and would be neutered prior to leaving here due to his age, and he was, just because after talking to her and how much she wanted to breed him to her bitch worried me that she could get someone to inquire about him saying everything i wanted to hear as a breeder and breeding non health tested or registered pups. Not worth it.

This insane craze in china is another reason I have no breeding plans for this year and most likely next either.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 11:19 PM
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Wouldn't you have to guard your dogs against someone stealing them, erykah1310? If anyone like that person wanted one for breeding they wouldn't care about papers. We have a lot of trouble with dealers ringing up about sheltie pups ( for the Asian market) and they can get cunning too and send say a woman with little children along to try and buy the pups. A dead giveaway with dealers is that they are after shelties with full white collars. A show person might want perfect markings but to them it'd be more important to have the right white on the legs than a full collar.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 04:19 PM
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WOW Erykah,did you really send one of Karmas pups to China,but I am sure you would not send him just to anyone,as you say yourself.
To me the scary thing would be,if the craze happens here and TM's end up in puppy-mills,how many people will know that that bear-cub-like little pup will one day become a beautiful but very large dog.

I think the TM is fairly unknown to the general public,so hopefully that will never happen

I think we need some new pics of Karma and did you not say you were keeping one pup??
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Old August 10th, 2010, 06:13 PM
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I did send one to Hong Kong yes, but did not accept payment for him until just before he left. Also, I get so many updates on him now its amazing, plus all the little gifts we recieve at random.

I do worry about these guys being the next fad around here soon enough, since this article my inbox has been flooded with people saying they could not afford $600 000 and wondering what my pups were sold for and if they could make payment arraingements.
I still have Tibby here, who I will spay prior to her leaving for sure now.

Its starting already with these guys being bred on non breeding, you can see who's dogs came from where and breeders all over are very quick to send off photos and information about "random" litters popping up online.

I had one person from Manitoba who was trying to get one for free promising me all sorts of puppies back from him and percentages of sales and all sorts of BS. One thing I have noticed is you do get a gut instinct right away about people and its best to go with it. And if you dont have red flags set off by the first few emails, the phone conversation is where you really catch them.
I write down answers I have already recieved from them on a piece of paper and work those questions in among new ones and wait for response time.
Its sort of an art, but I am a very untrusting person by nature so it sort of is my thing to catch people in lies.
I'm so happy we are not breeding this year, or maybe even next, this gives me time to work on a waiting list and weed through these rediculous emails lately.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 12:56 AM
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What happened here with one of my Sheltie litters is that a man rang up saying he'd had shelties before and wanted to get back into the breed, did I have any males with full collars? I replied I actually have a couple like that. He said he had a friend who'd be interested in the other one. Stupid man! Alarm bells rang but I told him one might be going elsewhere, so could he give me his phone number and I'd call him back about it. (Sure! LOL.) Then I rang another sheltie breeder friend who knew the dealers numbers and asked was this one of them. Easy. Yes, he was, so I gave him a blast over it. I kind of got the feeling he was used to angry sheltie breeders . It is one of the reasons for me giving up breeding these dogs though, I was just sick of worrying where they could end up.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 08:45 AM
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Similar article about the same story of Tibetan Mastiffs here


http://www.listown.com/group/photo-t...e-234-000-8790



quite the difference in exaggeration on the furnishings for these 2
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Old August 11th, 2010, 11:13 AM
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I saw these stories too and thought about Erykah's pups. How sad that they are being exploited and as usual, poorly bred just for money. Erykah, keep up your guard, you are right to be concerned.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 04:14 PM
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cell,thank you for that article,I had not seen it.
I think it's very concerning,I hope the TM is not just another fad in China..I am worried about anything out of China,always have been.
Maybe they'll start transporting ill bred puppies all over the world
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Old August 11th, 2010, 05:55 PM
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They will Chico.
Already the demand for larger and fuller coats is starting.
And China likes to push that they have the "real" TM with proper agressive temperament ect ect.
I really want to get out of the breed at times due to the drama with our parent club in the US wanting to change the name of the breed to Tibetan Dokyhi making anything from the US nothing coming into canada can be registered with CKC since a breed can not be listed as 2 breeds.
Many breeders have been talking about moving to a different registration to allow for import from places like China.
If they do this, we can expect the world of problems with the breed due to the over size of China dogs and lack of health testing.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 06:15 PM
ScottieDog ScottieDog is offline
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I saw this article on MSNBC yesterday.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38263729/

This is scary. An incredibly powerful breed that most people have no business owning. From the article:

"In China, breeders say that adult Tibetan mastiffs typically sell for tens of thousands of dollars, with some going for more than $100,000, according to the Associated Press.
The popularity is apparently driven by Chinese millionaires. “Most buyers are wealthy people, like entrepreneurs,” said Wen. “The newly rich want to show off their status by owning such a precious dog, which makes them feel really confident and powerful.”

The owner of the $600K dog has 40 other TM dogs and keeps them in cages. He is actually afraid of his expensive, powerful dog.

Also disgusting in the article is this statement:

"Breeders like Zhao Yanjun have no shortage of love for the dogs. “At the beginning I liked them, because I liked big dogs,” he told us. “Then I realized I could make a lot of money from them. And now I’m really in love with them.”
Zhao, whose kennel is in far northeastern Beijing, was a chicken farmer who made several thousand dollars when he began raising Tibetan mastiffs seven years ago. “I can easily make half a million U.S. dollars a year now,” he said. As if to underscore his point, there was a Porsche SUV behind him."
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Old August 11th, 2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieDog View Post
“Then I realized I could make a lot of money from them. And now I’m really in love with them.”
this is the mentality that will come from China ( although we already have it in North America) and cause the most problems, many people will now fall in love with the breed ( or as my inbox for the website has shown, "since the article I now know what that breed of dog was we had as children")
I bet you right now there have been many people who have sucessfully gotten a hold of intact TM's from somewhere and will start breeding them to sell to China at "discounted" prices like $80 000 or something rediculous like that.

I worry this could be the new "doodle" here soon enough.
And the temperament, size and general nature of this breed in the wrong hands is going to be pure hell. This is no Rottie or Bully or other "media favorite" when this breed starts biting I worry many people will not survive the mildest attacks, they are a very primitive breed. I may just leave my guys intact long enough to have some fun in various venues with them but until this fad dies down, I dont see a Khamala breeding in the future at all. Even though improving the breed and providing the true fanciers well bred pets is the whole point of breeding in the end. I can not sleep at night wondering what is really happening to the pups unless they stay here until they are old enough to be altered prior to placement.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 06:48 PM
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Just as an example of what has already come out of china regarding this breed. A breeder I work closely with has a lovely male with good Chinese lines, he was purchased to introduce diversity into our dwindling gene pool before the stud book closed. He did not pass his hip clearance... NOT EVEN CLOSE! His prelims showed signs of HD at 18 months !!!!
He is now neutered, but not after a lot of people lost a lot of money on him. ( owned by several breeders) Thankfully the breeders that own him did do the responsible thing and cut their financial losses for the sake of the breed as a whole. Cant always crap on the non show breeders
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Old August 11th, 2010, 09:58 PM
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I know you are worried about indisciminate breeding with your pups if they aren't altered but you say that the breed could kill people if they attack. That wouldn't change surely if they were altered or not? Aggression doesn't change in my breed just because a dog is altered. All I'm trying to say is that the fact that they can be so dangerous would be likely to cause me sleepless nights too, it must be a massive resonsibility trying to place them in the right hands. Rotten luck about the dysplastic TM, why didn't they insist on him being hip scored prior to purchase?
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Old August 12th, 2010, 07:44 AM
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Erykah,I really don't know what to saythe whole scenario is scary,scary and sad for the potential pups,being bred to be aggressive.
You'd think with the short stature of most Chinese,the sheer size of the TM would be enough
I cannot help wondering what making a dog aggressive entails
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Old August 12th, 2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
The owner of the $600K dog has 40 other TM dogs and keeps them in cages. He is actually afraid of his expensive, powerful dog.
So he built himself a TM zoo ???
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Old August 12th, 2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chico2 View Post
I cannot help wondering what making a dog aggressive entails

Aggression level is hereditary and is passed from parents to offspring, parents prone to aggression will pass the traits to puppies. Domestication has served to attempt to weed out aggression from dogs, especially those who need to work in packs or closely with humans.
Making a aggressive dog simply require breeding parents with ingrained natural aggression. Some dogs can go through hell and still be friendly where another dog can go through less and become aggressive because it's in the genetic makeup.
I watched a short documentary on the domestication of foxes on fur farms, foxes are naturally aggressive once they reach a certain age, even if handled since birth. This documentary highlighted a person/people who bred the friendlies to the friendliest and now have them domesticated to a point where they live in the house like a cat/dog. Also during this process the colours and coats showed variation that begun making the foxes appear more and more dog like. Very interesting short documentary, can't remember where I found it, probably Animal Planet.

edit: found a clip of the documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRQbSdMXBk0 I think it was from a documentary on evolution of dogs someone posted a few months back.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 04:03 PM
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Thank you for that cell,although I hate to see such beautiful wild animals in cages
But I understand now what you are saying.
I just don't see the purpose of this experiment...
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Old August 12th, 2010, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldfields View Post
. Rotten luck about the dysplastic TM, why didn't they insist on him being hip scored prior to purchase?
they got him as a pup out of hip scored parents and grandparents. However, genetics can be funny at times and because of his lineage and being out of Chinese lines with in the 5 generation pedigree, there was a list of un scored relatives that it can be traced back to.
hip problems are not only genetic either, growth, excercise, feeding, ect can all contribute to problems down the line. In this case though it was a classic case of poor genetics rearing its ugly head eventually.
Thankfully though this impressive boy was purchased by COE breeders and not bred with out testing just because for the past 2 generations they were fine.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 10:04 PM
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http://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/d007/
Quote:
The Tibetan Mastiff primary task was to defend and guard the livestock, the village and the caravans from predators, bandits and hostile tribes. One of the Tibetan names for the dog is Do Khyi, who means "a dog who is tied up". The dog was usally released from its chain only when there where work to be done, like in the night, for guarding the village. The dog were handled by their owner only, this was done to make them wild and fierce, for better guard and protection qualities.
Quote:
The Tibetan Mastiff is a independent and strong willed dog. He is regarded as extremly intelligent, aloof of strangers, devoted to their human family and he will protect them with his life, witch make them exellent home protectors.
Its quick little quotes like that which makes me worry about what kind of people are buying these dogs now and worry about what will happen with inexperienced people owning them because of a fad.
I know all to well the constant battle it is to remain "in charge" around here with just Karma alone. When she decided to eat my house a few months ago and I went to grab at her to bring her outside with out saying anything as she had done her damage too long ago to bother with a scolding or any kind, she could sense my displeasure and anger and she bared her teeth and snarled at me. We had words after that.
Now imagine someone who has no experience with larger head strong breeds that make up their own minds??? Its frightening.
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