Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog training - dog behavior > Cat behavior forum - cat training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old March 24th, 2010, 05:59 AM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Thanks catlover2! You've been such a great help! Let's hope this works cuz I feel like I'm bugging everyone with this issue that has gone on for far too long lol

If the separating plan doesn't work I will try to find the supplies that MyBirdIsEvil suggested!

Hopefully my next update is good news
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old April 1st, 2010, 10:02 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Got my tax return in the mail yesterday, so I bought Gizzy's new bed, the EmeryCat Board for him to scratch and food bowls. Starting the separation tonight! this works!
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 08:36 AM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
First night was a success, I think! He used the litter box, ate his food, and played with the toy on the EmeryCat Board. I don't think he knows his bed is a bed though lol. He lays in it when I am petting him, and walks on it.

He is a highly suspicious cat that needs to smell everything, and I got him the Whisker City Rocker Cuddler Bed in Green, it's soo soft that I would use it as a bed! I hid treats in the bed so he could eat and lay down but no such luck. Hopefully one day he'll have a moment and figure it out . A few meows throughout the night, prolly to be let out but I think he'll adapt
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 01:52 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Good news! I hope this is finally the solution to his spraying.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:13 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Yes me too! He's getting really meowy at night but I think it's a small price to pay over having to clean the furniture
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old April 5th, 2010, 07:15 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Last night, I believe, was meow free! !

Here is where my paranoia kicks in, when I let Gizzy out in the rest of the house, he automatically goes to to sniff Forest, and Forest takes full advantage and starts licking Gizzy. Should I let it continue and see what happens, or just stop it before it starts? Today, I psst'd at them to distract them from the sniffing, and then Forest starts meowing in Gizzy's direction and started to go near him, but I put a stop to that.

If my paranoia is right, I have no problem staying in the bedroom with Gizzy and away from Forest, that way he doesn't think he has to stay in the bedroom all day/night. He seems to love following me everywhere now and loves to sleep beside me.

Am I right to be paranoid or do they just miss each other?
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old April 5th, 2010, 11:03 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Maybe it's your paranoia kicking in? Cats only sniff and lick each other if they really like each other, otherwise avoidance is the usual behaviour. It seems to me Forest misses Gizzy. I wouldn't pssst or interfere with their friendly actions to each other. You should be happy about it. That's my
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old April 6th, 2010, 05:58 AM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Forest's licking is usually part of the dominance act. First he licks Gizzy's head, and then when Gizzy is relaxed, he beats the crap out of him. And when Gizzy can't run away cuz he's being pinned down, or he does get away and Forest chases him, and then later he sprays the furniture.

Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old April 6th, 2010, 11:21 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
OK I get the picture. But just wondering if Forest has "beaten the crap" out of Gizzy since he's been separated a lot from Forest?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old April 7th, 2010, 12:59 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
No he hasn't had the chance to cuz I keep psst'ing them to distract the thought away from him in the first place lol, just in case. Our bedroom is spray free and I'd like to keep it that way lol
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old May 1st, 2010, 08:25 AM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Just a lil update: everything has been going very well! Gizzy loves his new space and even when we let him out to socialize, he sits at the bedroom door to go back in lol. Or if I'm in there studying, he will meow until I let him in

We almost had a set back last night though. BF gets hot at night so he had the bright idea to get a stand up fan! Gizzy was terrified of it and wouldn't go near it unless I had a few treats for him (which he gulped down without chewing!). I was worried he wouldn't want to use his comfy green bed anymore, cuz the fan is near it. He didn't like the fan blowing in his face at all and wanted to run away everytime it came around. We turned off the rotating switch and moved it in the corner of the back of the room. So we let him be where he wanted to be and then we fell asleep. During the night, he must have gotten curious and made his way up on the bed a few times and the treats I left in his bed were gone so I think it's safe to say that he's over his fear of the big bad fan!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old May 1st, 2010, 09:34 AM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Thanks for the update, dollface.Well, that's funny Most cats definitely don't like anything blowing in their face. You did the right thing with the fan. Glad to hear the arrangement you've got now with having Gizzy in the bedroom is working out. Sometimes you just have to keep trying different things, until you find the arrangement that works out well for all. Gr8 news!
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old May 1st, 2010, 12:38 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
You're very welcome catlover2!! You have been a big part of this solution and I'm soo grateful you are here to share your insight and suggestions! Thank you soo much!!

If and when you venture into animal communication, I just know you will be successful and wish you all the best! You will be a godsend to many people!

Last edited by dollface; May 2nd, 2010 at 10:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old May 1st, 2010, 02:59 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
You're very welcome. Thanks for the encouragement.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old May 15th, 2010, 11:02 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Need some advice: Gizzy peed on the bed with us in it like 10 mins ago!

We went out with friends tonight, separated them as usual, they both had food and everything. I'm exhausted and freezing and all I want to do is go to bed in a warm bed, and Gizzy jumps up and pees on the bed! Went from the throw blanket, thru the comforter, my blanket, the bed sheet, and a bit got on the mattress. He is confined to the bathroom for the night cuz I don't understand why he peed. His litter box is fine and we just switched to Sweat Scoop last week, so I don't think that is a factor. Our friends have a cat and 2 dogs and when we got home and went to pet him he smelled me as normal as if I wasn't near any other animals. Could this be why he suddenly started to use our bed as his new litter box?? Does this mean I will have to start covering the bed with tin foil now too? Grrr

ETA: I heard him use his litter box last night while we were sleeping and when bf woke up he brought him out into the living room with him and when I woke up he used the litter box out there, so I think this was a one time thing, but I don't want him to pee on the bed again. So anything I have looked up on the internet suggests chronic inappropriate elimination. We have to go grocery shopping today and will need to separate them still, so do I confine him to the bathroom again, or put tin foil all over the bed, or take a chance that he will behave nicely?? If he pees again, I will pull my hair out! This was supposed to be a cheaper solution to the spraying issue. So if he pees again, he will probably have to go to the vet for tests to rule anything out and then put in a play pen.

If anyone has any insight as to why he had to pee on the bed, but use his litter box after being no where near the bed, please reply!!

Last edited by dollface; May 16th, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old May 16th, 2010, 01:23 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Darn! Gizzy's a sprayer, let's face it, and it doesn't take much of a trigger to set him off spraying. You might read my comment in thread "Rocky's spraying again". I think Gizzy's very much like Rocky.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=70191

I suspect it was the scent of your friend's cat and 2 dogs likely triggered it. Wash all the clothes you had on last night, even scrub your shoes, have a shower. Wash everything he peed on. Do you have a large piece of plastic that you can put under the throw blanket in case he does it again?

In future, just be sure if you visit anyone with cats or dogs, that you strip down, stash the clothes, clean shoes and wash your hands well or have a shower right after coming home. Sorry to hear Gizzy slipped up, but he was doing well for quite while, and hopefully he'll have forgotten about this incident and behave himself.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old May 16th, 2010, 02:02 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Thanks for the reply catlover2!! But it was a big puddle of pee not spray. Does that matter?

We've seen these friends before and no inappropriate elimination ever happened but that was before we separated them. So you're prolly onto something. I can prolly use a garbage bag (or 2) to put under the throw blanket for a couple days, cuz that would be a big waste of tin foil. Forgot to mention, he had peed right by my leg. So that must be a sign for something...

So when we go for groceries today I will get some garbage bags and put them under the current throw blanket and hope for the best!
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old May 17th, 2010, 12:39 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Just got home from school, and I had made the bed quickly this morning cuz I was running late so I didn't have time to grab a couple garbage bags. He peed on the bed again on my side and now I'm hysterical.

I don't know what to do anymore, I thought I would never say this but maybe it's time to give him away I'm prolly a bad person for thinking that now. I don't want to but what else is there? I can't afford a play pen for him. He's a nice cat to cuddle with when he finally warms up to you but this is too much. I'm stressed out with school, got three tests to write and a project due all before Thursday.

If anyone has any advice to talk me out of this situation that would be greatly appreciated, if not i'm off to cry my life away.

Last edited by dollface; May 17th, 2010 at 12:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old May 17th, 2010, 01:25 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Don't feel bad about thinking of rehoming him or sending him away to a sanctuary or somewhere, anyone with a bad sprayer has likely been driven to that point. You're not--repeat NOT--a bad person for thinking this way. This is a big problem with cats, especially males/neuters, for spraying or not peeing in the litter box, and the most common reason cats are euthanized. People just get to the point it's too stressful and unlivable.

Do you have a large size wire dog crate, or can you borrow one? Unfortunately, he will have to be confined to it until you can get through your school tests which are more important for you to do well in than worry about your cat. It won't hurt him to live in a crate for a while until you decide what to do. He may not like it much, but it's the best suggestion I can think of at the moment. Set it up with a cat bed/old towels/Tshirts for his bed and put in his litter pan, food and water.

Last edited by catlover2; May 17th, 2010 at 01:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old May 17th, 2010, 01:50 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Thank you for the kind words catlover2! I'm really trying but the tears keep coming

We may have a little bit to buy a big dog crate if my bf's parents don't have a spare one. The mattress part is really upsetting me, you just can't clean a mattress, you have to replace it and it's only 2 years old. Now I'm gonna smell like cat pee every day

I've heard of cats peeing on the female's side of the bed when they know you're pregnant even before you do, but I'm pretty sure that is not the case here. He slept with us fine last night, I was even waking up periodically to make sure he was just sleeping and then today I go to school and come back to a disaster area. If he could just tell me what he was thinking, maybe I would know what to do to help him.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old May 17th, 2010, 03:00 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
dollface, I have sent you a PM (Private Message).
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old May 17th, 2010, 05:45 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,406
So through all of this I have not heard of Gizzy going to the vet to see if he is 100%.
Have you considered adding another litter box? Not in the same area the other ones are in. Maybe across the room or in another room all together. I know it's a open concept condo so maybe one of the bathrooms? Do you clean them morning and night? Are they away from noisy appliances? Is Gizzy being ambushed by Forest when he tries using one?
It is also possible he is still able to smell his urine on your bed and therefore has decided it's fair game. You may need to wash all of your covers/blankets in lots of vinegar and rubbing alcohol. The mattress you can try renting a carpet cleaner with a furniture attachment and clean it very very well. You may have to sleep elsewhere for a night while it dries but it's worth a shot.
If none of this works then pm me. We can work on something. I just hate to think of him being given up for spraying. Although I am still not sure if it's spraying or peeing.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old May 17th, 2010, 08:30 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
So through all of this I have not heard of Gizzy going to the vet to see if he is 100%.
Have you considered adding another litter box? Not in the same area the other ones are in. Maybe across the room or in another room all together. I know it's a open concept condo so maybe one of the bathrooms? Do you clean them morning and night? Are they away from noisy appliances? Is Gizzy being ambushed by Forest when he tries using one?
It is also possible he is still able to smell his urine on your bed and therefore has decided it's fair game. You may need to wash all of your covers/blankets in lots of vinegar and rubbing alcohol. The mattress you can try renting a carpet cleaner with a furniture attachment and clean it very very well. You may have to sleep elsewhere for a night while it dries but it's worth a shot.
If none of this works then pm me. We can work on something. I just hate to think of him being given up for spraying. Although I am still not sure if it's spraying or peeing.
It was the spraying issue, but now he is just peeing on my side of the bed. And I have no idea why.

I'm just soo upset right now, all trust I had with him is gone like that. I know deep down I don't want to lose the cat that has come to follow me around and always wanting to be with me. Fortunately, bf is more understanding and says he is staying, even though last time he said if he pees again he's gone...

Going to the vet is worth a shot but I think all we'll find out is it is behavioral and will prescribe pills to shove down his throat when that alone makes him mistrust us even more. I kinda avoid going to the vets now because they push dry food, and don't respect my concerns. What about Bach Flower Essences? I could try that. I am just baffled as to why he is suddenly reacting this way when I came home saturday night and he smelled the other pets. He's never reacted that way before, he would just rub all his scents on me to reclaim me, I guess.

When catlover2 suggested I separate them b/c of the dominace issue with Forest, Gizzy got the bedroom at night and during the day when we weren't home. In total we have 3 litter boxes, not cleaned meticulously but he has gone in when they were a lot dirtier. There are 2 litter boxes along the floor to ceiling windows in the main part of our condo, and his litter box in the master bath inside the bedroom. Only Gizzy uses it. Forest has never been in it or near it, and no way for him to be ambushed. Outside the bathroom, about 1.5-2 ft away is the laundry closet (stacked washer/dryer behind a door), they are never turned on when he is going to the bathroom, and they weren't on before we left Saturday night.

On Saturday when he basically peed on me it was near the foot of the bed, between my knees and feet area. Today when he peed on the bed, it was a few inches below my pillow, so where my chest would be.

We have a top loading washer so it is very hard to wash out comforter and throw blankets (the huge ones you get at fairs and ribfests), I have lots of vinegar but no rubbing alcohol. Do I wash them with vinegar and detergent or just vinegar or get some rubbing alcohol and run them with vinegar? How much for each? Would a steam cleaner work on the mattress?

We'll both be sleeping on a couch tonight, and he will be confined to the bathroom again, because I just can't trust him anywhere by himself unwatched. Hopefully we can get a crate by tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old May 17th, 2010, 09:45 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
I really think it's behaviour with Gizzy, but I did notice in a previous post that you changed his litter a week ago to Sweat Scoop. It could be the litter change has something to do with his peeing on the bed.

I had a funny thing happen recently with my cats---they both use one box which they've always preferred. I was using a clumping clay litter that was OK but a little dusty. My neighbour raved about World's Best (corn meal) cat litter and said her cat loved it and she did too as there was no dust. So I thought I'd give it a try. The cats accepted it without any fuss, though it did have a "corn" smell. I've been using it for almost a month but last week my girl used it OK but had no urge to cover up her pee clumps or poops. My boy was fine with it and covered up his stuff, but not hers. One day, she actually did her poop outside the box. Then I noticed she meowed and fussed a bit before going into the box. So decided to go back to the clumping clay litter. I cleaned the box thoroughly to get rid of any corn smell, and as soon as I put the clay litter in, she got in pooped and covered it up. No problemo! That was on the weekend and she's continuing to cover everything up. Have no idea what it was that she didn't like about the Worlds Best corn meal litter, maybe the smell? because it was lighter in weight and a bit coarser than the clay litter? Who knows? But she wasn't completely happy with it, and that was her way of telling me she didn't like it.

Soooo, if Gizzy was doing well on the litter you used before you switched to Sweat Scoop, go back to it and see what happens. I still think his peeing is behavioural, marking his territory and triggered by the strange cat & dog scents, but maybe going back to the old litter might help. Worth a try, as he was doing pretty well for a while. Hope it works.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old May 18th, 2010, 07:56 AM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
I had no idea that a cat would have a delayed reaction to something they don't like, I thought it would be more immediate. But good news regarding that, my bf doesn't like it cuz even tho it says it clumps, it doesn't do a good job and he basically has to empty all of it out. So should we wait until the bag is done? Forest seems to use it fine. We suspect he has arthritis so he never covers his business anymore.

Last night the bed was semi-dry, no smell so we put a garbage bag on underneath the sheets and Gizzy spent the night with Forest. I'm sure the spraying issue will be back, guess it's time to buy stocks in tin foil and go to costco and get some in bulk to cover the furniture...

Bf got screwed out of overtime money on his paycheck so that may be a factor contributing to my hysterics...
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old May 18th, 2010, 08:13 AM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,406
Swheat Scoop does a marvelous job here for me with six cats in the house. The smell is a lot nicer than wet clay. Did you do a gradual change over or all at once?
I wish you luck with Gizzy.

We have a top loading washer so it is very hard to wash out comforter and throw blankets (the huge ones you get at fairs and ribfests), I have lots of vinegar but no rubbing alcohol. Do I wash them with vinegar and detergent or just vinegar or get some rubbing alcohol and run them with vinegar? How much for each? Would a steam cleaner work on the mattress?

When I wash the blankets from the catuary I use approx 2 cups of vinegar and a bottle of rubbing alcohol (it's cheap) and the regular soap. If I still smell the urine (I do have a few sprayers out there) then I wash it again just using the vinegar and rubbing alcohol. Normally twice gets rid of the smell.
A steam cleaner works on furniture. Can't see why it wouldn't on a mattress. If I'm wrong I am sure I will be corrected.
If the blankets are that big then take them to a laundromat to wash them. They normally have oversized machines for use. I have a top loader too.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by 14+kitties; May 18th, 2010 at 01:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old May 18th, 2010, 11:13 AM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
If he was doing well on the old litter, was there a reason you changed to Sweat Scoop? He was doing pretty well for a while until you came home with the cat & dog scents wasn't he? I would switch litter back tothe older stuff immediately instead of finishing the bag to see if there is a diff. Let Forest use up the Sweat Scoop. Also another litter pan in your room might possibly make a diff.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old May 18th, 2010, 01:25 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Swheat Scoop does a marvelous job here for me with six cats in the house. The smell is a lot nicer than wet clay. Did you do a gradual change over or all at once?
I wish you luck with Gizzy.
Thanks 14+! I think the bf just did all at once. I don't think he knows the proper protocol even after having a cat for 13 years although he knows that a food change should be gradual.

catlover2: We had run out and bf went to pet valu on his way home from work instead of petsmart or wal-mart. We usually get exquisicat, i think. And I guess Pet Valu didn't have that so he picked up the Swheat Scoop. I thought it was great cuz you can flush it but he doesn't want to flush it so we are going to switch back cuz it doesn't last as long.

Ok so I just got home from school, Gizzy was with Forest all day and I checked for pee puddles but can't find any, so I guess that means he has no problem using the litter boxes out here but not in the master bath?? Or he has been holding it in all day. Your guess is as good as mine. Anything I should do now?
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old May 18th, 2010, 03:51 PM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
I dunno....keep your fingers crossed that he doesn't use the bed again?
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old May 19th, 2010, 05:44 PM
dollface's Avatar
dollface dollface is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 576
There wasn't any pee today, so he must be using the litter boxes out here.

At this point, I don't think I can trust him. And I don't even know when I will be able to trust him again. I don't look at him or go near him. Bf vacuumed when he got home and I was just unplugging the cord and Gizzy was hiding near the outlet and he hissed at me. That makes me even more PO'd. I feel like I'm at a dead end...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 7.69%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 AM.