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  #31  
Old January 15th, 2010, 07:48 PM
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Another Update: Time for diapers? Gizzy has sprayed again. He sprayed Forest's chair, bed and blanket. My bf doesn't want me to spend money on a crate and he thinks its cruel, he just doesn't understand that it's for his safety. I don't know what to do anymore. He's never going to stop spraying. Giving him up and letting him be someone else's problem or be put down is not something I can think about but I feel like I'm running out of options.
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  #32  
Old January 15th, 2010, 10:51 PM
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Would it make things worse if we only got 1 crate to keep Gizzy in? Forest can have free run with Gizzy enclosed to keep the spraying to a minimum. Or would it be better for both of them to have their own crate? Would something like this be good enough: http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-PET-CAT-KENNE...item2557f61b9b ?

If I spray the areas with Nature's Miracle, then the water/vinegar/hydrogen peroxide solution, then febreeze (for our noses' sake) will that deter him?

In case a crate is out of the question (even thought it would probably be the less expensive route over time), would drug therapy be the option to go?

Last edited by dollface; January 16th, 2010 at 12:07 AM.
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  #33  
Old January 16th, 2010, 02:12 PM
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Diapers or stud pants can work.

I don't think the pet play pen would work with Gizzy, he would only spray the walls and then it would be a constant cleanup to keep up with it. It wouldn't be my choice.

The choice of putting him on some sort of medication is "iffy" IMHO. It might make him tranquilized or calm enough that he doesn't spray, but what would be the long term effects of the medication on him?

Diapers are an option. I had a stud cat once that was a bad sprayer and I made my own stud pants for him to let him have some freedom in the house outside of his cage. I used toilet paper as a "panty liner".
http://www.castlepaws.net/studpants.html
or if you wanted to make your own, here's a pattern.
http://www.cat-world.com.au/home-mad...nts-a-overalls

Another option is to leash train him and take him for a brief walk once a day and let him squirt to his content. I used to do this with 2 of my studs (not at the same time!) they really enjoyed it and got all excited when they saw me coming with the harness and leash, would stand patiently by the door to have it put on and could hardly wait to get outside. These two were satisfied with squirting outside, but didn't do it in the house.

I haven't used those Feliway Diffusers, but from what I've read on other threads, sometimes they work wonders and sometimes have no effect. Here's a link:
http://www.feliway.com/gb/All-about-Feliway-R

Unfortunately, Gizzy just seems to be one of those males that's a sprayer, and what triggers it is hard to say....definitely something related to Forest....jealousy or just asserting himself.....who knows? I wouldn't have a cat put down because of spraying, but unfortunately this is the #1 reason that cats are euthanized. Hope these suggestions can help you cope.
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  #34  
Old January 16th, 2010, 05:32 PM
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Thanks catlover2! You're replies calm me down soo much!

Good point about the playpen, off the list!

Medications would probably be a last resort only cuz giving him pills stresses him out even more, so off the list for now.

Did not expect the answer about the diapers But it looks like it could do the trick! I will just have to deal with bf's laughter.

When I first got him, I had him leash trained a little bit. We live on the top floor of an apartment so I got him used to the leash while taking a tour down the hallways. I might have to try taking him outside, but in carrier first cuz he avoids the elevators like the plague if on leash.

I've read the same as you about the feliway diffusers. I'm iffy on trying them cuz they are soo expensive and IF they work, depending on the cat.

I almost had victory today regarding the crate. I found one at petsmart 30x22x23 on reduced price, persuaded my bf that I'm buying it and bringing it home. He was pretty grumpy about it. So we got home, set it up, and then realized the door doesn't open wide enough for the litter box. So we did some handy maneuvering and got it in, but only half a foot was left for a bed and food. So in the end, bf won, and it's going back to petsmart. And the ones I found on Kijiji are good prices but i have a feeling the litter box won't fit in them either, since I had the one bought today to compare it to.

So that leaves me with the diaper option. Would I keep it on all day and change it after he goes to the litter? Or only put it on when I can't supervise him? This may prepare me for that baby stage ppl are always talking about
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  #35  
Old January 16th, 2010, 06:42 PM
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Hey Dollface.
I have used the Feliway diffuser, plugged into the outlet in my center hall, when it first came on the market. Milo was, and really still is, a bit on the jumpy side, and I had hoped it would work, but I had really no success with it. It may have been that I only had one going - the cost was even worse when they first came out and it was wasn't providing enough to fill the whole house and he would almost have to be laying next to it to work. I gave it to my breeder, and she said it worked when she used it in one room where the "uptight" kitties would be, so it may be worth it to try one. I think the initial diffuser should work about a month and you will know by then if it is going to have an effect. Maybe the poor boy is picking up on the vibes from b/f?
Good luck. I know the smell is something awful. My guys don't spray, but I have had one in the past that would.
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  #36  
Old January 16th, 2010, 09:37 PM
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Yes it will be like looking after a baby! tho you won't have to burp him! No I wouldn't keep it on all day, just when you can't supervise him, and definitely if he's going into the litter box, whip it off so he doesn't poo in it. Be prepared that it will take him a bit of time to get used to stud pants, as my cats lay down and didn't want to move at first.

Good luck on finding a crate. Do you have Freecycle where you live? http://www.freecycle.org/group/CA/Ontario It's a great service and someone just might have one kicking around in their garage. You could join and put in a "Wanted" request for one. Good luck!

Last edited by catlover2; January 16th, 2010 at 09:41 PM.
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  #37  
Old January 17th, 2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincymycat View Post
Hey Dollface.
I have used the Feliway diffuser, plugged into the outlet in my center hall, when it first came on the market. Milo was, and really still is, a bit on the jumpy side, and I had hoped it would work, but I had really no success with it. It may have been that I only had one going - the cost was even worse when they first came out and it was wasn't providing enough to fill the whole house and he would almost have to be laying next to it to work. I gave it to my breeder, and she said it worked when she used it in one room where the "uptight" kitties would be, so it may be worth it to try one. I think the initial diffuser should work about a month and you will know by then if it is going to have an effect. Maybe the poor boy is picking up on the vibes from b/f?
Good luck. I know the smell is something awful. My guys don't spray, but I have had one in the past that would.
Hmmm, interesting. I think I will keep this in mind. I have used the Feliway knockoff spray "At Ease" and it seemed to work, then we ran out of it and forgot about it. I think it's time to raid eBay lol
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  #38  
Old January 17th, 2010, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover2 View Post
Yes it will be like looking after a baby! tho you won't have to burp him! No I wouldn't keep it on all day, just when you can't supervise him, and definitely if he's going into the litter box, whip it off so he doesn't poo in it. Be prepared that it will take him a bit of time to get used to stud pants, as my cats lay down and didn't want to move at first.

Good luck on finding a crate. Do you have Freecycle where you live? http://www.freecycle.org/group/CA/Ontario It's a great service and someone just might have one kicking around in their garage. You could join and put in a "Wanted" request for one. Good luck!
There will be times when I can't watch him and he will have to use the litter, what then? And I had no idea freecycle existed, just thought it was on here, i'll have to check my area out! Thanks

Ok so last night as a last ditch attempt, I got out the h20/peroxide/vinegar solution and just sprayed all the furniture and anything else he might want to spray. And the arms of our couch/recliners of where the 2 beds are are covered with aluminum foil. So we have space furniture and live in vinegar but I can barely smell it now so hopefully they can and just stop it. I think I will spray it for a week at night and see if it does anything.
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  #39  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 03:19 PM
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So I've been spraying the vinegar/peroxide/water solution every night. I haven't smelled any spray lately, but when I pet him he does kinda smell like it. So I dunno if he's still doing it, or if it's even possible for him to have a spray blockage problem??
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  #40  
Old January 23rd, 2010, 05:50 PM
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If he's peeing in the litter box a normal amount, he wouldn't have a "spray blockage" problem. With all that vinegar solution you've sprayed around that's likely what you're smelling.
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  #41  
Old January 31st, 2010, 12:09 AM
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Thanks catlover2, there has been no spraying! You should be a cat behaviourist!
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  #42  
Old February 1st, 2010, 07:40 AM
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Thanks for the update. That's the kind of news we like to hear! Good Gizzy!

As to being a "cat behaviourist", it's something I've thought about for a long time and am considering taking an animal communication workshop.
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  #43  
Old February 1st, 2010, 04:08 PM
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Well you've been a great help in my books! If I didn't know better I would have thought you were one already I didn't know they had workshops like that, I think that would really be interesting to take!
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  #44  
Old March 16th, 2010, 03:01 PM
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Smelled spray today. Baffled as to why it's always in the same spot; on Forest's bed on his recliner although he hasn't slept there consistently in over a month b/c now we just leave the the other recliner reclined and Forest wedges himself into his very own "hammock" spot. Really wishing I had a separate room for them!
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  #45  
Old March 16th, 2010, 06:13 PM
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I'm assuming it's Gizzy who sprayed where Forest sleeps and not Forest spraying there, right? Did you try the diapers?
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  #46  
Old March 16th, 2010, 06:59 PM
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Yes we assume it was Gizzy. Forest used to sleep there but not so much anymore. Haven't tried the diapers because there was a lot of progress and there was no more spraying since I last posted until today. Going to look into it right now though! But if I do go that route, he'd have to be in one from 6:30am to about 1pm M-F and then when we go to sleep at night, is that a feasible idea?
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  #47  
Old March 16th, 2010, 10:35 PM
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Probably not feasible since you're away too long, certainly you wouldn't want him pooping in them!

Peeing is usually a sign of frustration or asserting dominance ("this is mine!"). It seems to me that Gizzy is constantly jealous of Forest or maybe trying to dominate him by peeing on his spots where his scent is, even tho he hasn't used that bed for a while. So does Gizzy end up takie over these places? And has he peed on Forest's new resting place? I guess the important thing here is, does this bother Forest or could he care less as he has a new "hammock" recliner. At one time you said that Forest was dominant over Gizzy, so has their relationship flipped? Does Forest still dominate Gizzy or does he pretty much ignore him and do his own thing? If Forest is still trying to dominate Gizzy it could be Gizzy getting back at him by peeing on his bed.

I've had stud cats, unspayed females, as well as neuters and spays. It's been my experience that generally speaking males, whether neutered or not, tend to spray a lot more females (unless they're in heat!). Once a male even tho neutered starts spraying regularly, it's very difficult to correct this behaviour, as often events will just set him off---change in household (new person/another pet), change in routine of owner (shift work), seeing another cat outiside, smelling another cat off your hands or clothes. Any of these things and more could be a trigger to spray something. It's natural for whole male cats to spray, but I have known some breeders who were able to let their stud full freedom in the house and never sprayed. So it really depends a lot on the cat's personality and whether he's bothered by things or just really laid back. I've had some neuters that did spray and others that didn't. My present neuter has never sprayed and he has neighbour cats regularly visit and look at him through our patio doors. You might just have to reconcile yourself that Gizzy is a spayer , at least from time to time, and try to discover what it is that triggers it so it becomes a rare event, but have a good urine eraser just in case.

If Gizzy's just spraying while you're out, perhaps the only solution is to keep them separated; let Forest have your bedroom or let Gizzy have the bathroom or get a dog crate and keep Gizzy confined until you get home. this is so long, I got carried away!

Last edited by catlover2; March 16th, 2010 at 10:59 PM.
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  #48  
Old March 16th, 2010, 10:56 PM
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Have you thought about doing an outdoor enclosure (preferably somewhere the smell wouldn't be too bothersome around the house, because obviously he'll do it out there)?

The leash thing is a good suggestion too.

I have a female cat that's a sprayer and the only thing that slows it down is giving her outdoor time. She doesn't do it constantly but she will do it on things that are new in the house and periodically in random places. She is fixed, it doesn't matter, I think it's a habit of hers and she was probably doing it before we got her (we got her as a rescue and she was already fixed and an adult). Luckily female cats spray doesn't smell as bad as a males, but it can still be pretty bad sometimes.

With your furniture you may wanna try covering in plastic. You can cover the plastic with a cloth furniture cover to hide it and that can just be thrown in the wash. It would make things a lot easier.
I've tried to find cloth furniture covers that are waterproof, kind of like the covers that go on beds, but no luck . You could try making one yourself with a waterproof liner if you're good with a sewing machine, but it would be expensive compared to the plastic and furniture cover suggestion. It would look nicer though.
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  #49  
Old March 17th, 2010, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by catlover2 View Post
Probably not feasible since you're away too long, certainly you wouldn't want him pooping in them!

Peeing is usually a sign of frustration or asserting dominance ("this is mine!"). It seems to me that Gizzy is constantly jealous of Forest or maybe trying to dominate him by peeing on his spots where his scent is, even tho he hasn't used that bed for a while.
So does Gizzy end up takie over these places? When I was trying to establish their own beds, Gizzy would sneak on Forest's bed to sleep or lay on. Then I would pick him up and move him to his own bed. He doesn't really associate his bed with the purr pad, but the specific spot of the couch. So if my bf puts Gizzy's purr pad on the ground so my bf can sit where Gizzy usually lays. Gizzy will sit in front of him and meow at him, not even caring about his purr pad on the ground. I'm wondering if I should just get them actual beds instead of using the purr pads so they actually associate it as an appropriate sleeping spot...
And has he peed on Forest's new resting place? No he hasn't, mostly b/c Forest is permanently glued to it.
I guess the important thing here is, does this bother Forest or could he care less as he has a new "hammock" recliner. At one time you said that Forest was dominant over Gizzy, so has their relationship flipped? I don't think so, I do see a few swats from Gizzy at Forest, but Forest just walks away as if he doesn't care. I don't think Gizzy will ever become the dominant one.
Does Forest still dominate Gizzy or does he pretty much ignore him and do his own thing? I'm thinking he still does it but I haven't seen him do it. I think he knows he gets yelled at when we DO see him doing it, so he does it when we aren't looking (i.e. not at home or sleeping).
If Forest is still trying to dominate Gizzy it could be Gizzy getting back at him by peeing on his bed. This is what I suspect that is still going on. I had stopped spraying the water & vinegar sol'n for awhile cuz there was no spraying and I thought we were cured. Silly me!

I've had stud cats, unspayed females, as well as neuters and spays. It's been my experience that generally speaking males, whether neutered or not, tend to spray a lot more females (unless they're in heat!). Once a male even tho neutered starts spraying regularly, it's very difficult to correct this behaviour, as often events will just set him off---change in household (new person/another pet), change in routine of owner (shift work), seeing another cat outiside, smelling another cat off your hands or clothes. Any of these things and more could be a trigger to spray something. It's natural for whole male cats to spray, but I have known some breeders who were able to let their stud full freedom in the house and never sprayed. So it really depends a lot on the cat's personality and whether he's bothered by things or just really laid back. I've had some neuters that did spray and others that didn't. My present neuter has never sprayed and he has neighbour cats regularly visit and look at him through our patio doors. You might just have to reconcile yourself that Gizzy is a spayer , at least from time to time, and try to discover what it is that triggers it so it becomes a rare event, but have a good urine eraser just in case.

If Gizzy's just spraying while you're out, perhaps the only solution is to keep them separated; let Forest have your bedroom or let Gizzy have the bathroom or get a dog crate and keep Gizzy confined until you get home. this is so long, I got carried away!
I have pitched this idea over and over to my bf but he just keeps saying no! He is soo not a responsible cat owner! GRR! and trying to find a big enough dog crate that will house a litter box and food is hell especially when we have limited funds. This is why I'm trying to convince my bf to move and take up his mom's suggestion. She wants to help us out in the living situation and help his sister at the same time. She wants to see if she can buy a house with a basement apartment and we live upstairs while his sister gets the basement. Even though we will spend more on gas we will have a lot more that $100 to spend every month! At least $400 more! I don't understand why he keeps saying no to more money saved just b/c his sister will be splitting the rent but living in separate quarters. And this will solve a lot of problems we have now: Forest and Gizzy will have separate rooms, I can have more closet space, we will have a backyard (to bbq)!, no elevators, a garage (for him to work on his car cuz he will have money!), the list goes on and on and he is still fixated on the fact we will be living very close to his sister. Sorry for the kinda off-topic rant, but it would solve this problem that we have with Gizzy, I think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil View Post
Have you thought about doing an outdoor enclosure (preferably somewhere the smell wouldn't be too bothersome around the house, because obviously he'll do it out there)?

The leash thing is a good suggestion too.

I have a female cat that's a sprayer and the only thing that slows it down is giving her outdoor time. She doesn't do it constantly but she will do it on things that are new in the house and periodically in random places. She is fixed, it doesn't matter, I think it's a habit of hers and she was probably doing it before we got her (we got her as a rescue and she was already fixed and an adult). Luckily female cats spray doesn't smell as bad as a males, but it can still be pretty bad sometimes.

With your furniture you may wanna try covering in plastic. You can cover the plastic with a cloth furniture cover to hide it and that can just be thrown in the wash. It would make things a lot easier.
I've tried to find cloth furniture covers that are waterproof, kind of like the covers that go on beds, but no luck . You could try making one yourself with a waterproof liner if you're good with a sewing machine, but it would be expensive compared to the plastic and furniture cover suggestion. It would look nicer though.
We live in a high rise apartment with no balcony, so an outdoor enclosure is kinda impossible lol but if I can somehow convince my bf to move then we could actually build the outdoor enclosure, and Forest would be soo happy cuz he was an outdoor cat for 14 years.

Our furniture isn't anything really special but it is a place to put your bum, especially for guests. I started spraying the vinegar solution morning and night again and I think I will have to start putting down aluminum foil as well. That will be easier to remove for when company comes over.

And the other thing if I do manage to convince him to move and everything's a go, his sister will prolly bring Spaz (their mom's cat), but he's an outdoor cat, but I'm sure we could find a way to keep him inside or safe outside in a separate enclosure. So I dunno if Gizzy will ever be ok if there is another cat in the house, out of site most of the time, but sometime's seeing him play outside with Forest, kinda thing. And I have recently fallen in love with Ragdolls, so what would happen if I ever got one? Soo frustrating! But am so glad everyone here is so helpful!
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  #50  
Old March 17th, 2010, 06:40 PM
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Getting a Ragdoll? Are you ? I have nothing against Ragdolls, as they are wonderful cats. But, I think that would just get Gizzy spraying even more than he does. I think he's just one of those sprayers that it doesn't take much to get him spraying and unless you rehome Gizzy and as I recall that wasn't an option you would consider.

As to moving to a house where you'd have a lot more space does sound like a better arrangement that the apartment you're in now. An outdoor enclosure probably would suit Gizzy, but you'd have to make more effort to pet him, etc. when he's not close to you in the house. Maybe reason your bf doesn't want to move is he would feel uncomfortable hearing any amorous sounds coming from the basement or want any to be heard down below from upstairs? Just a guess! Turn up the music!
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  #51  
Old March 17th, 2010, 09:48 PM
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Have you not seen my sig? It still needs to be edited but I think I want these cats because of their temperaments: Snowshoe, Munchkin, Ragdoll, and Ocicat

Rehoming will never be an option just because he sprays. What kind of pet owner would I be if I rehomed a problem cat in order to have a new problem free cat? Not gonna happen. I will just have to take every precaution I can to make sure Gizzy feels secure in his surroundings and prevent as much damage as I can, smell-wise. But for sure Gizzy would be really jealous around a Ragdoll, another laidback cat who is devoted to its owner. Hogging her attention all the time. I will just have to give Gizzy more loving than usual. I already kinda do that now though.

And you hit the nail on the head on the head catlover! I just suggested your idea of turning up the music and he just laughed and walked away. I am so desparate for this to happen that I just don't know how to convince him! Especially when the tranny in my car is starting to go.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 10:44 PM
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dollface, you said: "What kind of pet owner would I be if I rehomed a problem cat in order to have a new problem free cat? Not gonna happen."

Sometimes, this kind of a solution works, particularly if Gizzy went into a home where he is the only cat and has lots of attention without having to share it with another cat. He may not spray in that situation. Occasionally rehoming a pet needs to be done when the pet's incorrigible behaviour is causing a rift between people, stress or illness (allergies) in the house. I know some people put their pets before a hubby or child, but I would not. Just my

Maybe bf will surprise you and have a change of heart about moving. You never know.
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  #53  
Old March 18th, 2010, 07:00 AM
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Ya I guess that's true. But he's my first cat and I don't think life would be the same without him if I gave him away I think I'd feel guilty every time I looked at the new cat.

I need a miracle for that to happen! So if everyone could project the thought of us moving would be really helpful! lol
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  #54  
Old March 19th, 2010, 05:38 PM
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Just came across this type of cage with a cover on top, it would be perfect to house Gizzy in it when I can't watch him: 42"x48"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250599695461

But since I can't afford $50-100, do you think there is anything at a dollar store or walmart that I could makeshift something like this structure/layout?
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  #55  
Old March 19th, 2010, 08:38 PM
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Walmart sometimes has dog pens, but you would have to make a top cover and they're not any cheaper there.

I have one but you're too far for me to give it to you

You could probably find one used. A lot of people buy dog pens (without the top) and you could just use some fabric or a heavy tarp as the top.

You could build something similar out of wood and chicken wire if you feel industrious. Actually they sell plastic chicken "wire" at walmart for garden fences, so that may work and it's pretty cheap. I don't think cats could get through it. It's made of the same stuff plastic screen is and none of my cats can rip my plastic screens.
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  #56  
Old March 20th, 2010, 06:44 PM
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dollface, Here's a dog crate on kijiji http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-acce...AdIdZ191839734

or you could put an ad (free) on kijiji for one. Someone may have one they're not using.

Problem with ebay.com is shipping (item you were looking at was in Ohio and they wanted pickup only). Better to look on www. ebay.ca for one in Toronto area.

Good luck!
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  #57  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:26 PM
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dollface dollface is offline
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Thanks catlover2 & MyBirdIsEvil for the suggestions! Plastic chicken wire sounds like an idea, pretty durable! The only problem with making a pen/buying a crate is my bf thinks that both of them should be crated during the day so the other doesn't get jealous that one gets freedom and the other doesn't kinda thing. Even if there is a blanket covering the crate. I don't think that would be the case but maybe I'm wrong. On that link, I would prolly end up getting the playpen for $60 that way it is easier to put a litter box in, but since there is no door, I'd just have to lift the top for Gizzy to jump out when I can watch him.

So I came up with a new idea but have a few questions. My bf should be getting his new truck in the next week or so, so that means more hours=more overtime pay. So we should be able to buy what I have in mind. Instead of using their current beds, I buy Gizzy a new comfy bed from the Pet Store that way no one's scent is on it, put it in the bedroom and he can be separated in the bedroom during the day and at night. Now my question is, if I go this route, is there any chance he would spray anything in our bedroom? Sometimes we have clothes on the floor, cuz they get dropped/fall, or we just don't have any room to put it (another reason why we need to move, we are pretty much busting lol). So if separated, would he feel the need to spray the bedding, or his new bed, or whatever may be on the floor?
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  #58  
Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:19 AM
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catlover2 catlover2 is offline
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Gizzy may or may not spray, but was Forest was in your bedroom before or not? If he wasn't it might work with a new cat bed. The only way would be to try it and see, and hope for the best. But I definitely wouldn't leave clothes around on the floor or chairs that he could mark. Too much of a temptation I think. Having Gizzy in the bedroom with you may give him extra esteem that he's getting special attention and not Forest. Might be the solution. Good luck, hope something works out for you.
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  #59  
Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:59 PM
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dollface dollface is offline
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Thanks catlover2!!

Neither one has been separated in the bedroom before, we keep the door closed unless we're in and out real quick. Lately, when I come home from school though, I will let Gizzy come in with me while I change into comfy clothes and close the door until I'm finished. And when he gets on the bed it is instant purring from him. So I think he already thinks he's getting special attention when I do that, so maybe I'm on the right path.

Prolly will pick up anything that might be a temptation for him, and there aren't any chairs in our bedroom either. I think I will have to either get a small scratching post or split the one we already have that way he will still have something to scratch and not use anything that is wood.

Forest LOVES the bedroom too b/c the big comfy bed is in there. Even the minute he walks into the room he is instant purr and drooling. His dominance behavior really irks me and I don't think he should get the bedroom as a reward for it, so I just hope when him and Gizzy are together under supervision, Forest doesn't lash out at Gizzy cuz he was in there all day/night and he wasn't sort of thing.

Do you think I'm on the right track or should Forest be the one to have the bedroom?
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  #60  
Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:34 PM
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catlover2 catlover2 is offline
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Since Gizzy's the one who's wanting to spray, I'd try Gizzy in the bedroom, and give Forest some extra attention and/or treats when Gizzy isn't close enough to see or hear, otherwise he may be jealous. I think you'll just have to try this and see what happens.
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