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  #31  
Old August 18th, 2009, 05:01 PM
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She's also going to prescribe some Metacam. She wasn't sure that the Buprinex was available in Canada, but was going to look into it.
Buprenex (aka buprenorphine) is available in Canada, but maybe not through normal veterinary sources. I think my vet said she gets it compounded at a human pharmacy? One thing I do know is that it's quite pricey.

As for Metacam, I'm very leary of using it in cats. While there are lots of cats that do use it without issue, it has been known to cause or exacerbate kidney damage. I'd use the smallest dose possible, and if you plan to use it for any length of time, have blood work and a urinalysis done regularly (like every 3 months).
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  #32  
Old August 18th, 2009, 06:40 PM
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He strikes again!!!!:sad:
He did it on the plastic cover on the sofa. WTF!?!?! I think he's getting desperate since there're no soft surfaces that aren't covered in plastic or behind closed doors. At least he didn't ruin anything this time. I sat down and wrote out all the pee incidences in the last week and there were only 2 days where he didn't pee on something, that we know of.

After my last post I decided to google metacam and definitely didn't like what I found. I emailed my vet to let her know I'm not comfortable with Metacam and if we could find another safer drug.
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  #33  
Old August 18th, 2009, 07:03 PM
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He strikes again!!!!:sad:
Oh geez. What a little stinker. Any way you can put a litter box upstairs in a main room somewhere? I know it's not so appealing for the humans, but I'm wondering if he's associating something negative in the laundry room with urinating.

As usual, I have a ton of links on this subject. For your reading pleasure:
http://www.catsinternational.org/art...box_users.html (make sure to click the 2 other links at the bottom of this page)
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim.html
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim2.html

This might sound harsh and I don't know if it would just end up adding to Angus' stress, but some people have success confining their cat to a small room like a bathroom for a day or 2, along with their litter box, bed, and food. This often forces them to use the box while they're in there, which can be enough to reset their psyche on the subject. If you do choose this option, I would spend lots of time with Angus in the room so he doesn't feel like he's being punished. Also offering a couple choices of litter types (like one clay, one pine etc) in 2 separate boxes to see if he has a preference might be a useful exercise.
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  #34  
Old August 18th, 2009, 08:01 PM
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...She's also going to prescribe some Metacam. She wasn't sure that the Buprinex was available in Canada, but was going to look into it....
I would really advise you not to accept the Metacam.

Here is part of the background to my recommendation http://www.metacamkills.com

The oral version of this drug is specifically stated by both the FDA and the manufacturer as "NOT FOR USE IN CATS".
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  #35  
Old August 18th, 2009, 11:45 PM
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Since all his tests have ruled out any sort of medical problem, it does sound behavioural. If Melinda's idea of earth in a litter box doesn't work, you might get him used to a harness in the house, and then take him outside on a leash to see if he will do his business there? I can well imagine how you're at your wit's end. No, you should not have to live like this, nor should your other pets be deprived of a nice soft spot to sleep. As a last resort, maybe you should consider sending him to a rescue place.

Last edited by catlover2; August 18th, 2009 at 11:50 PM.
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  #36  
Old August 19th, 2009, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
She also suggested a homeopathic remedy called Cantharis which might be effective.

Growler, when I had him in last week they only did the regular urinary work up, no blood work. I could ask about it when I go in tomorrow morning.
Personally I would go ahead with the remedy, definately skip the metacam, I would even wait on meds to see how the Cantharis does but that's just my

Indications of use for Cantharis (Urine - Intolerable Urging and tenesmus. Nephritis with bloody urine. Violent paroxysms of cutting and burning in whole renal region, with painful urging to urinate; bloody urine, by Drops. Intolerable tenesmus; cutting before, during, and after urine. Urine scalds him, and is passed drop by drop. Constant desire to urinate.)

You might also ask about Vesicaria (Urinary and kidney remedy. Smarting, burning sensation along urethra and in bladder with frequent desire to void urine often with strangury. Cystitis irritable bladder)

Usually given one or the other not both at the same time.

I must say I'm really surprised there was no blood work done I wouldn't be surprised to find a kidney infection being part of the problem

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I sat down and wrote out all the pee incidences in the last week and there were only 2 days where he didn't pee on something, that we know of.
Can you think of anything no matter how insignificant that was different those 2 days from the rest? Was one of those 2 days the day your DH came back from his weekend away?
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  #37  
Old August 19th, 2009, 09:11 PM
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I did pick up the Metacam today, but I can't bring myself to give it to him. I emailed my vet and told her I wont be giving it to him and if we could find a safer alternative. I also told her I'd like to do some tests to check his kidneys just to rule out anything there. I'll probably try out the 'cantharis and the other things that Growler mentioned. I'm picking up the Cosequin tomorrow as well.

So far so good today. One incident in the night last night, another pee on the plastic covering the sofa. I woke up to take an advil and took a look around to see if he'd done anything and there it was pooled on the plastic.

I had an interesting thing happen after work today. Angus greeted me at the door and I decided to bring him into the laundry room to hang out and observe him. I petted him and chatted, at first he was wary of the room, sniffing around like he was freaked out. After he relaxed and was rolling around on the floor, I picked him up and placed him in the litter box. I scratched around in it, then he peed!! it was weird, he started off in the pee crouch then was fully standing in the box by the end. I'm just thrilled he did it in the box and gave him lots of praise and lovins. DH did the same later, and Angus gave him a poop.

We're no where near out of the woods, but this is a tiny wee little bit of progress. I'm wondering if something has happened in the laundry room to freak him out. He was wary of the cat door going into the room as well. We took the flap door off so he can have better visibility going in and out, hopefully it makes a difference.
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  #38  
Old August 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
I did pick up the Metacam today, but I can't bring myself to give it to him. I emailed my vet and told her I wont be giving it to him and if we could find a safer alternative. I also told her I'd like to do some tests to check his kidneys just to rule out anything there. I'll probably try out the 'cantharis and the other things that Growler mentioned. I'm picking up the Cosequin tomorrow as well.

So far so good today. One incident in the night last night, another pee on the plastic covering the sofa. I woke up to take an advil and took a look around to see if he'd done anything and there it was pooled on the plastic.

I had an interesting thing happen after work today. Angus greeted me at the door and I decided to bring him into the laundry room to hang out and observe him. I petted him and chatted, at first he was wary of the room, sniffing around like he was freaked out. After he relaxed and was rolling around on the floor, I picked him up and placed him in the litter box. I scratched around in it, then he peed!! it was weird, he started off in the pee crouch then was fully standing in the box by the end. I'm just thrilled he did it in the box and gave him lots of praise and lovins. DH did the same later, and Angus gave him a poop.

We're no where near out of the woods, but this is a tiny wee little bit of progress. I'm wondering if something has happened in the laundry room to freak him out. He was wary of the cat door going into the room as well. We took the flap door off so he can have better visibility going in and out, hopefully it makes a difference.
It is possible he just didn't like that darned door. My guys don't like them. Is it possible maybe he was startled once when he was in the middle of a pee by the washing machine starting loudly or something? Maybe there was something heavy in the machine when it started a spin cycle and it banged against the side of the machine? Grasping at straws here. Now that you are making some changes to make things better for him hopefully you will get your loving kitty back. Isn't it great how sometimes we have to be detectives to get to the bottom of our furries' problems?
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  #39  
Old August 19th, 2009, 10:09 PM
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Stacer I am so sorry your having to go through this! That is the same thing Tabitha was diagnosed with. I was given 2 ways to treat it!

1) Pheramones
2) Oral Prozac type drug! (because they beleive she has behavoural issues as well)

We chose the pheramones and they have been working up until a couple of weeks ago and she started her rampage on Winston again.

Tabitha decided it was okay to pee in Winston's crate. It has a large rubber liner...so I have had to lock up that room because if we leave the door open she goes and does it! Poor boy cant even lay in his crate!

I am darned thankful it is only with Winston and not on our things but it is still really frustrating. We havent been able to pinpoint what provokes her if it is behavioural!

Good luck mf !
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  #40  
Old August 20th, 2009, 12:54 AM
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This is an aside to what's happening here, as you may well be on to an answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
I did pick up the Metacam today, but I can't bring myself to give it to him. I emailed my vet and told her I wont be giving it to him and if we could find a safer alternative....
Sugarcatmom has said
Quote:
Buprenex (aka buprenorphine) is available in Canada, but maybe not through normal veterinary sources. I think my vet said she gets it compounded at a human pharmacy
so, perhaps you might suggest that to your Vet - or, if there is a compounding pharmacy nearby, maybe call them and inquire. Frankly, I admire that you are able to be assertive when it comes to working with your Vet in the management of Angus' health. So too often, the "intimidation by authority" factor takes over, sometimes to the detriment of our little ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
I also told her I'd like to do some tests to check his kidneys just to rule out anything there...
and sugarcatmom had also said
Quote:
...While there are lots of cats that do use it without issue, it has been known to cause or exacerbate kidney damage. I'd use the smallest dose possible, and if you plan to use it for any length of time, have blood work...done regularly
The myth that bloodwork will tell you whether/not METACAM has damaged the kidneys needs to be dispelled - and quick! The FACTS are that standard "bloodwork" won't show (pardon my language) a bloody thing, until 60-75% of a cat's kidney function has already been destroyed. Only specialized tests (link) (most often unavailable to the average kitty parent) may indicate some loss of kidney function.

I want to say this: your love and commitment for and to Angus--- is beyod evidential - it is profound. Hang in there....I believe the solution is close.
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  #41  
Old August 20th, 2009, 07:02 AM
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You are right, rustycat, bloodwork will only start to indicate kidney damage when the kidneys are quite severly damaged. Urine tests are a much better indication of how well the kidneys are functioning.

You may be on to something, Stacer, if something scared Angus while he was using the box, he may not feel comfortable using it again.
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  #42  
Old August 20th, 2009, 10:23 AM
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You are right, rustycat, bloodwork will only start to indicate kidney damage when the kidneys are quite severly damaged. Urine tests are a much better indication of how well the kidneys are functioning.
Quite right you both are. I guess I just meant to emphasize that with Metacam use should come careful monitoring.

One other thing. While I do agree that if there are other options, cats shouldn't be put on Metacam willy-nilly, but sometimes situations come up where its use is appropriate (I don't think this is one of them, but the decision isn't up to me). When it comes down to quality of life, Metacam can be a valuable tool for chronic pain management. Yes, Buprenex has less serious side effects, but longterm use of it would be prohibitively expensive for most people. Just my
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  #43  
Old August 20th, 2009, 12:13 PM
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I agree, scm. I did use Metacam on Sweet Pea for a couple of days due to her badly burnt paw. There was no time for my country vet to get anything else for her and she was in horrible pain.
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  #44  
Old August 20th, 2009, 01:11 PM
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Sugarcatmom- do I ever want to say

In reading your reply to my last night's post and then in re-reading what I had written about "myths" and bloodwork...well, now, in the light of day I can see how I might have been seen as suggesting that you were propagating myths!!! I had absolutely no intention of that interpretation, and I should have been much more careful before I pushed the "submit" button. Again, my very sincere apologies for that.

What I did intend to rail about was the pervasive false and meaningless assurances provided by many Vets when they are questioned about the safety of this drug and then, the "intimidation by authority factor" which can diminish our own resolve against its use.
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  #45  
Old August 20th, 2009, 01:33 PM
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No worries RUSTYcat! You're right about the blood work and kidney damage, and where Metacam is concerned, it's better to err on the side of caution. Thanks for being on top of things!
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  #46  
Old August 20th, 2009, 09:08 PM
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Thanks for all your good thoughts, and all the advice has been so great. I've definitely implemented alot of the suggestions. I don't think I could have made it through this without you guys

Even though I won't be putting him on the Metacam, I'd still like to get a better picture of what might be going on inside his little guts. Growler mentioned kidney infections etc... so some bloodwork might just rule out some things that the urinalysis didn't pick up.

I hung out with Angus in the laundry room again today and helped him relax, he didn't pee for me but he was rubbing things and rolling around, sniffing and exploring. I left for a few hours and when I came back he was just going through the kitty door. I quietly watched him while he did a very long pee in the litter box. I gave him lots of praise and scritches when he was done.

2 days no accidents.

I also started adding Solid Gold Very Berry powder to his wet food, so maybe that's helping.

Rustycat, I have asked the vet about buprenorphine, she's working on getting it, but is having difficulty finding proper dosing for cats, I think. It's not one they have ever used or worked with at their practice.

As for being intimidated by the vet, I was at first when we originally had issues with Angus a few years ago, but I did my research and wouldn't give in and I think I created awareness about nutrition with her. She's thanked me on several occasions for keeping her on her toes. I like to think I'm providing a valuable service to the vet, challenging her to look further instead of just maintaining status quo.
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  #47  
Old August 20th, 2009, 09:22 PM
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I quietly watched him while he did a very long pee in the litter box. I gave him lots of praise and scritches when he was done.

2 days no accidents.
Yippeeeee!

Here's hoping things stay this way.
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  #48  
Old August 23rd, 2009, 10:14 AM
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Hey all,

So far so good with Angus. We've had almost 4 days without problems. I finally picked up the Cosequin at the vet's yesterday after a delay in the shipment, so I'm excited to get him started on that.

We did not use the Metacam, I'm going to give it back to the vet for disposal.

We definitely think that in addition to the cystitis, something was amiss in the laundry room. We've been spending alot of time with him down there and his demeanour has definitely changed from wary earlier this week, to confidence by this weekend. We're finding consistent pees in box and more poops too, I think he was holding those as long as he could.

For future reference, here's a breakdown of the changes we made in house after he was checked over by the vet to rule out any problems. Hopefully this will help someone else.

-vet check

-wet food only (no more dry for snacking)

-added cranberry supplement to diet

-added cosequin to diet

-put feliway diffusers on every floor (not by the litter box though)

-gave the litter area a good cleaning

-changed the type of litter from pine to a fine clay with Cat Attract in it.

-modified the litterboxes (we use high rubbermaid bins) by cutting out one side so it was easier for him to jump in and out (He really likes this, now he can have his upper body out of the box while he's doing his business)

-removed door flap on cat door so he'd have better visibility coming and going from laundry room.

-made him feel at ease in the laundryroom by hanging out in there with him, and giving him lots of praise and petting when he did his business in the box.

-we made it impossible for him to pee in his preferred inappropriate places by keeping doors closed and covering furniture in pastic when not in use.

-thoroughly cleaning anything that he had previously peed on so that he won't return to the same spot.

I'll let ya'll know how we do this coming week, keep your fingers crossed that he does well.

Thanks for all the help, I would have gone crazy without it!!
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  #49  
Old August 23rd, 2009, 11:00 AM
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omg Stacer , you have the patience of a saint !!!

Good luck , I'm hoping you'll keep seeing improvement
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Good luck! I hope the changes you made continue to work. I wonder if adding cranberry to my gang's diet might be an added benefit for them.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:34 PM
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Good luck! I hope the changes you made continue to work. I wonder if adding cranberry to my gang's diet might be an added benefit for them.

AG, i think you just have to be careful that it doesn't make their urine too acidic, that's when calcium oxalate crystals form, which are the worse of the two. Is that right SCM?
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:49 PM
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That is correct, stacer.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 02:05 PM
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Hmm, maybe I'll stay away then. They're fine on the pee front.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for documenting all the changes you have made....fantastic. Glad he's done a turnaround and hope he continues using the litter box. gr8!
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  #55  
Old August 24th, 2009, 06:35 AM
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oh I'm sooo glad things are improving for you Stacer, here's hoping it just continues to get better and better
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  #56  
Old August 24th, 2009, 06:40 AM
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that's so good to hear that things are improving. Small steps! Be sure to keep us updated!!
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Old August 25th, 2009, 07:47 AM
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I thought Metacam was not good for cats. It may cause kidney failure??? How is your kitty doing now?

http://www.metacamkills.com/

http://www.persiancats.org/Medical_A...News_PHCR.html

http://www.felinecrf.org/causes_of_crf.htm#metacam
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Old August 25th, 2009, 08:00 AM
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Khari - In post #48 Stacer said.......
We did not use the Metacam, I'm going to give it back to the vet for disposal.

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Originally Posted by Khari View Post
I thought Metacam was not good for cats. It may cause kidney failure??? How is your kitty doing now?

http://www.metacamkills.com/

http://www.persiancats.org/Medical_A...News_PHCR.html

http://www.felinecrf.org/causes_of_crf.htm#metacam
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  #59  
Old August 25th, 2009, 01:12 PM
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Stacer Stacer is offline
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Yup, it's bad for the kidneys, which is why we didn't end up using it. Plus I really don't think he's in any pain. If anything, I'm leaning toward anxiety/depression.

He's doing OK now, he had an incident overnight last night, peed on the sofa again. Good thing we're still keeping the tarps on it while we're sleeping or not at thome. He went 5 days without problems, so I'm not sure if this is just a blip or if he's decided he doesn't like the litterbox again. I'm home from work today so I'm keeping a watchful eye on his litterbox habits.
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  #60  
Old August 27th, 2009, 10:14 AM
lindapalm lindapalm is offline
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I'm going through the exact problems with a male cat you are, and its with the only one of my cats that has ever been outside (he's snuck out 4-5 times, and sprayed on bushes) I wonder if being outside is so alluring to them that when their inside, they want to go outside so bad they mark everywhere. Mine is always trying to sneak out, but I don't believe in letting them live outside. Hope you have luck, my house is shot.
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