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  #1  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:14 AM
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Opinions needed

Another BM question My golden has been having bouts of diarrhea on and off for over a month. 1st I thought maybe stress from losing her bf so she had a check up and had her stools tested, *normal*

Vet suggested rice/extra lean mince meat x 5 days as well as Fortiflora. She got better for a bit and I'm not sure if giving her kibble triggeged it again or because someone gave her weiners but back to square one.

Vet suggested a complete blood biochemistry, all *normal* but her unine sample however showed white blood cells in it. I couldn't make heads or tails out of what he was saying other then the next step would be xrays & ultrasounds

He put her on Metronidazole x 14 days and again just rice/meat & flortiflora.

Just looked up everything but now I'm more confused. She could have inflammation from a bladder or kidney infection, could be bacterial as in Giardiasis, could be bladder stones omg

And/or it's the Solid Gold and vet strongly recommends I switch to Hills Presciption Diet (gastro) but I do not trust vet foods.

Any thoughts/suggestions?
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:27 AM
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GG,wish I had an answer for you,does she still have runny poop with the rice/meat??
I hope she's ok,just a sensitive tummy ....she just CANNOT be sick too
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:29 AM
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Hey GG - so not better since last conversation.

Go with the Hills food as recommended. Trust me please as all dogs that had intestinal problems did fine on this food. Once regulated, I went back to my regular feeding of higher quality by mixing and then fully on regular. Others may disagree but for my fosters that had problems (and I have had many) this worked fine.

As for the medical - I can't help. Best of luck to you on this - you certainly do not need this of all things.
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:50 AM
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Thanks Chico, the rice/lean meat worked for a bit but it came back once she began back on her kibbles (or it was from weiners)

I emailed Solid Gold to see if they changed their ingredients lately.

BM, for a while she was ok I remembered you telling me to make sure they checked for Giardia in her stools which they did. But reading the net it says it can also be in the intestines. To be sure I haven't allowed her to swim in the river for the last 10 days, I use the hose to cool her off.

But really the Hills helped good to know that thank you. What kind have you used?

I thought it contained alot of stool harderner's & corn. Personally I don't understand 1/2 of whats in pet food ingredients to be honest. He was upset at my reaction to try their food though

Seriously she's gaining weigh & not getting the protein she needs on rice all the time. Something's gotta give
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 09:03 AM
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Thanks Chico, the rice/lean meat worked for a bit but it came back once she began back on her kibbles (or it was from weiners)

I emailed Solid Gold to see if they changed their ingredients lately.

BM, for a while she was ok I remembered you telling me to make sure they checked for Giardia in her stools which they did. But reading the net it says it can also be in the intestines. To be sure I haven't allowed her to swim in the river for the last 10 days, I use the hose to cool her off.

But really the Hills helped good to know that thank you. What kind have you used?

I thought it contained alot of stool harderner's & corn. Personally I don't understand 1/2 of whats in pet food ingredients to be honest. He was upset at my reaction to try their food though

Seriously she's gaining weigh & not getting the protein she needs on rice all the time. Something's gotta give
I used the Hills Gastro. For my fosters, it did the trick. I would not hesitate for one moment to give to my dog if I had to. I have seen it work and I cannot dispute this.

I am going to pick up some REAL dogfood tonight or Thursday. The guy there is AMAZING as he worked in the petfood industry and is very knowledgeable. He left because he disagreed with the ingredients so he know sells only the finest (BTW - no pets are sold there). I will ask him and let you know what he says. Sorry I personally cannot give any other advice. All I can tell you is what worked for me but it does not mean it's the best for your babe.
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 09:25 AM
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ok BenMax thanks I will try it. Of course one step at a time, 1st she must finish the meds and once it's normal I will give it a try

Does only vets sell Hills Presciption Diet food?
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 10:15 AM
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ok BenMax thanks I will try it. Of course one step at a time, 1st she must finish the meds and once it's normal I will give it a try

Does only vets sell Hills Presciption Diet food?
I believe so. Vets have a 'deal' with these brands. There is also Medical Gastro.
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 06:31 PM
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I'm sorry that her diarrhea has come back.

I know you've told me that you've been feeding the Solid Gold for a long time. There are some who believe that dogs will develop allergies to foods that they've been fed for a long time. If the runs go away when she's off the food, and come back once you put her back on it - I'd have to be suspicious of the food.

Having white blood cells in her urine could indicate an infection, and most likely a bladder or urinary tract infection. The stones normally form after a prolonged decrease in flow going throught the bladder. Is she peeing the same amount as normal or is it less or more? Sometimes white blood cells will show up even with no infection - the white blood cells are the body's army and are sent out to do battle with whatever the body thinks has invaded it. Sometimes inflammation can cause the body to react, or some kind of irritation. And sometimes the immune system just goes haywire.

It could still be the giardia - everything I've read says that it can take more than one round of antibiotics to get rid of those buggers.

I know that the pumpkin seemed to help her last time, have you tried that again? Personally, I think the vet food helps because of the additives they put in - it's definitely not the sub-par ingredients. I would imagine they are trying to sell you the I/D food, which is for digestive issues. Here are the ingredients:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Rosemary Extract.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to their website, the benefits of this food are increased B vitamins and potassium, higher fat to replace lost energy and higher fiber. Vitamin B6 & B12 are needed for proper digestion, and can be found in any meat or poultry source (which this food has almost none). Bananas are high in potassium and also in B6 and B12. I can see that the food is definitely high in fiber - it's pretty much all fiber IMO.

I hope she feels better soon. There is nothing worse than not being able to find the source of the problem.
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Old June 24th, 2009, 08:25 AM
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BenMax I thought we were speaking of the same food "Hills Gastro". Her vet wants her on the *Hills ID* which I suspect it's about profit (I'm not saying she doesn't need a gastro food though) but I'm going to have to do some homework while her tummy is resting up.

She's had now 4 doses of the meds but hasn't poo'd yet, hopefully she'll be ready soon - 'ing it's going to be even a little firm. Can't believe I'm disgussing this topic on the internet

Thanks Kandy for all that info she is peeing alot I also read about the Giardia and I so hope it's not that. I'm now leaning on maybe it is the SG perhaps getting older something in it is just not agreeing with her anymore.

Hills ID - 1st to the 5th ingredient is what we should concentrate on right, doesn't look too good now does it?
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Old June 24th, 2009, 11:53 AM
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Hi GG,

Sorry to hear about the troubled tummy...
Can't really help with the medical stuff, but when we got Sparky last year I went with GO! grain-free. It was too high on protein for him, gave him terrible gas and he never had a solid poop, it was always watery. Then we went with Orijen and the problems virtually disappeared. Almost no gas (rarely) and his poops are really nice () .

When he had a real bad episode with diarrhea (before Orijen) the vet convinced me to buy the food from them (Iams Intestinal Low Residue Puppy) and just give it to him while he has tummy problem, going back to normal food after its gone. I was upset but went with it because it seemed to help. But thats how we figured it out, he was doing fine on Iams , and then back to good quality food he was getting worse.

I would try another quality food, recommend Orijen, but do your own research, you might find other options too.

Good Luck and don't be afraid to try the vet's food. Sometimes it actually works.

Also, just wanted to add, with Tarzan RIP, we had to put him on Senior food relatively early, because he wasn't doing good on adult anymore(diarrhea or constipation), and senior was easier to digest and had glucosamine for his joints and all that...
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Old June 24th, 2009, 05:09 PM
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Hi JennieV thank you

I've been researching all day and I was most impressed with the Senior Orijen so far. Their website btw is full of info http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/senior.aspx
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Old June 24th, 2009, 05:18 PM
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If you click into the bottom of their site, check this out:

Why you must never trust stated protein %'s to compare dog food

Think you can’t be easily fooled?

Well, think again.

You see… when shopping for dog food, you just
can’t trust the stated protein percentage printed
right there on the label.

No, you really can’t. And here’s why…

Say you’ve got a pair of old leather boots…
some used motor oil… and a scoop of sawdust.

Now, grind them all up… blend them together…
and send that whole concoction to a food testing
laboratory… for analysis.

And the results? This toxic medley of rubbish
contains…

Protein 32%
Fat 18%
Fiber 3%

Now, if you look only at the “raw data”… the
numbers make this funky brew look pretty
good… in fact, just as good as any quality dog
food.

The leather provides the protein. The motor oil
supplies the fat. And the sawdust contributes
the fiber.

Not exactly something you’d ever want to feed
your dog. See how easy it is to be fooled?

I'm like
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Old June 24th, 2009, 08:30 PM
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And it's exactly that kind of trickery that led to the huge dog food recalls. Melamine boosts the levels of protein that show up in tests, and apparently it's been common practice in China to add melamine to glutens, which go in all kinds of animal feeds, including dog food. One manufacturer got a bit greedy and decided to add more melamine and less actual gluten, knowing full well that the product would still test for high protein levels. They send it to US dog food manufacturers who outsource those kinds of ingredients because of the higher profit margin. It got added to dog food and cat food - and created a tragedy. One article that I read about the melamine said that melamine was like 1/100th the cost of gluten and IMO that cost savings made those manufacturer's look the other way when they knew damn well what they were really getting.

While I know the chinese manufacturers, as well as the US manufacturers who imported the tainted ingredients, all got charged - the US folks only got charged with importing ingredients that were not accurately labeled. Pfffffftttt. I would caution all animal owners to check the labels on everything they give their dogs, from food to treats. All food products must list the country of origin on their labels - and I've found that some supposedly healthy treats are made in China. Now I don't have anything against China, but they do seem to have some very strange things happen with their food - human hair in baby formula, melamine in baby formula, and something weird with their toothpaste (that I can't quite remember right now) among other things. They seem to have a problem with their product safety standards in general and I make sure to check labels now before I buy something that I or my dogs will ingest.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 09:57 AM
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GG how is she doing today?? any improvements??
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:02 AM
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I know that when Sydney was having tummy trouble and I had to take her into the vet, I had to give her some meds, I fasted her for 24 hours then gave her the vet canned gastro food. I only bought 2 cans which I think lasted for 2-3 days and then she slowly went back to rice and chicken then back to her kibble.

Usually as soon as my two get the runs, I have given them a dose of pepto and put them on the rice & chicken diet for a few days and it has always worked. It was just the once when Sydney was actually throwing up too that I had to take her into the vet to get the medication.

I wouldn't be against the vet food if it is temporary to help get her system back in order but I would definitely not keep her on it very long (since we all know the quality of it is pretty low). My dogs have been on Orijen 6 Fish for a long time now and have been doing great. I really like Orijen.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:03 AM
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I've learned so much don't know where to start

Thanks for asking Breeze, she's had 2 poop's now and both were pick-er-up'able Mind you she's only eating rice, meds as well as flortiflora I think even water would be solid with this mixture

I'm just hoping it's a bacteria thing that'll clear up with the meds so we could could move forward. I need to find a better food for her as the SG Hollisque Blendz is way too grainy. I now suspect it has alot to do with her weigh gain and possible gatro problems but I'm open to all suggestions from members regarding what they feed that works for them.

I realize there is tons of info already but ingredients do change from year to year

Kandy isn't that just scary
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Thanks BM for your input. Glad to hear your pup's did fine with the vet food when they were sick. When I put Brandi on the wet gasto vet stuff just wow it right through her like explosively. The 1st ingredients I believe said corn When I told the vet this he's like what to do you expect when feeding her whatever for so long she's fat something isn't right oh dear
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM
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My vet used to try to get me to put the dogs on the Hills food that he sells. I flat out told him that I wouldn't do it because it's crap food and besides, Spencer is allergic to it. Since then, he just leaves me alone.

I have never seen a bad reaction to the gastro food, if you get that reaction to it, I wouldn't feed it either. I don't care how long they have been on something else, it's supposed to help with the problem, not make it worse. Ugh!!
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM
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I've learned so much don't know where to start

Thanks for asking Breeze, she's had 2 poop's now and both were pick-er-up'able Mind you she's only eating rice, meds as well as flortiflora I think even water would be solid with this mixture

I'm just hoping it's a bacteria thing that'll clear up with the meds so we could could move forward. I need to find a better food for her as the SG Hollisque Blendz is way too grainy. I now suspect it has alot to do with her weigh gain and possible gatro problems but I'm open to all suggestions from members regarding what they feed that works for them.

I realize there is tons of info already but ingredients do change from year to year

Kandy isn't that just scary

I know how hard it can be to find the right solution. and reading so much that your eyes cross ( I am doing that now) so I understand, mind you Bree's problem is a little different.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:12 AM
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I'm glad that she's had a couple of poops that were better! Hopefully she continues to improve!

And I totally agree - some of the stuff that gets put in dog food is very scary.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:17 AM
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Thanks BM for your input. Glad to hear your pup's did fine with the vet food when they were sick. When I put Brandi on the wet gasto vet stuff just wow it right through her like explosively. The 1st ingredients I believe said corn When I told the vet this he's like what to do you expect when feeding her whatever for so long she's fat something isn't right oh dear
So is your vet trying to say that the I/D food is cleaning her out from her having 'whatever' kind of food for so long???
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:28 AM
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Thanks exactly what he was saying Kandy You know vets save our animals for sure and we surely need them but I just don't think they should be giving nutritional advice especially when it's not a quality food. They believe the manufacturer's and not us when were simply ask if they could so kindly not try and kill them with their non-nutritional expertise ...

Kandy and I have been msn'g & emailing. She's done extensive research on dog food since having problems herself with one of her puppers so I thought I'd share her info for anyone else who may be experiencing health problems, diarrhea and/or overweight pups. It's great info thanks for that

Doing a bit of research, a lot of things say that senior dogs have trouble digesting protein and since most dog food companies like to fill their dog food with plant based proteins (ie grains), it makes it even harder for them to digest it which causes digestive tract issues. Experts say the best thing you can do for a senior dog who is having digestion issues is to get them off grains and onto a higher protein (meat based), low carb diet. It's just amazing to me that most senior formula's are exactly the opposite - lower protein and higher carbs. No wonder older dogs have such a tendency to put on weight!

Based on that premise, and assuming that she doesn't have kidney problems that would be aggravated by higher protein - I found 5 grain free foods that have lower carbs than most grain free. Grain free does not mean carb free, although most people don't realize that sometimes a grain free food can have more carbs than a food with grain in it.

Merrick Before Grain Salmon
Solid Gold Barking at the Moon
The Honest Kitchen - Verve (this is actually a dehydrated raw diet that you add water to)
Acana Pacifica
Orijen Senior

Looking at the ingredients in SG Holistique Blendz it is very grain heavy. 3 grains, then ocean fish (not meal) then potato are the first 5 ingredients.

(Me thinking ... not a very good choice for a senior already overweight with digestive problems as well as having hypothyroidism geesh and I wonder why she keeps gaining weight. I do supplement her food with grade A meat everyday, at least that was good

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/produ...?id=6&code=160

When you are looking at ingredient listings, remember that the list has to go in order of quantity - whatever is first is theoretically what there is the most of in the food. You need to be aware of a few loopholes that dog food companies have made in that requirement though. If chicken is first, but it just says 'chicken' or 'deboned chicken' - that means that the chicken is in it's wet form. Once the water is removed, that chicken could actually fall to 3rd or 4th on the ingredient list. So if you have a fresh meat source first, followed by 3 grains - then there is much more grain in that food than meat. So if the food has chicken meal followed by 3 grains, it has way more meat protein in it than the one that listed fresh chicken first.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:35 AM
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Great advice and you can find what will work for her..

what food are you leaning to?
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:35 AM
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I know how hard it can be to find the right solution. and reading so much that your eyes cross ( I am doing that now) so I understand, mind you Bree's problem is a little different.
lol ya my brain is quite full Sorry to hear but what's been happening with Breeze?
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Great advice and you can find what will work for her..

what food are you leaning to?
You too Well I did want to try the SG Barking at the Moon but since I've sent 3 emails asking if their ingredients have changed and no reply I'm leaning toward the Senior Orijen. Seems like many are very happy with this product
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:38 AM
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lol ya my brain is quite full Sorry to hear but what's been happening with Breeze?
we (the vet and I) belive that it is IBD . I have been reading your thread in between reachering, just did not want to threadjack.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:39 AM
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You too Well I did want to try the SG Barking at the Moon but since I've sent 3 emails asking if their ingredients have changed and no reply I'm leaning toward the Senior Orijen. Seems like many are very happy with this product

I have heard of the same.. people really like Orijen..
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:46 AM
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What's IBD? Anyone is welcome to threadjack - it's about sharing any/all info, besides when doesn't one topic roll into another
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:51 AM
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What's IBD? Anyone is welcome to threadjack - it's about sharing any/all info, besides when doesn't one topic roll into another
Inflammatory bowel disease..where her intestines get very inflamed, bloating cramping with blood in her very loose/ mucusy/watery poop
similar to irritable bowel syndrome


you have a point.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:52 AM
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I would think that with all the diarrhea she's had lately, her system is sufficiently clean. Maybe she had such an 'explosive' reaction to the food because she's allergic to corn or something.

A while back I did some condition specific research for a coworker whose dog has SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth). The vet had her dog on one of the Hill's prescription products. Every single thing I read about SIBO stated that the very worst thing you can give to a dog with the condition is corn - but yet the first ingredient in the prescription food is corn. I just don't understand why most vets think that forcing a carnivore to survive on grains is nutritionally appropriate? Even humans will have health problems if they don't take in enough proteins - and our bodies process grains a lot more efficiently than a dogs. A friend of my husband had a maltese with severe allergies. Their vet put their dog on one of the Hill's prescription diets. The symptoms got much worse, so much so that this vet convinced them to just put the dog to sleep. I think the poor dog was 2 years old. I had tried talking to the wife about it when the dog first starting showing symptoms, but she wasn't receptive to anything I was saying. One thing she had told me made me think she might've been giving the little guy onions so of course I warned her that onions are toxic. A couple of weeks later she informed me that her vet told her onions are not toxic to dogs. I was flabbergasted - and extremely glad that I don't go to that vet. IMO vets need a ton more nutritional education - that is not dictated by dog food companies.
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