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  #31  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:34 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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[QUOTE=BenMax;768863] I also know that there are still responsible breeders out there and again they are put into one lump pile just as rescues are or shelters for that matter. One can ruin it for everyone, but we must not loose sight that even though you nor I would go to a breeder, we cannot say that all breeders are bad either.
QUOTE]

CLM - I guess you missed a portion of my qoute above.

Infact I do share a 'portion' of your opinion.
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  #32  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Indeed but she was polite and non confrontational. Now I rather just stick to this topic but since you posted, I will respond.

Back on topic with my thoughts....hopefully this breed will not be bastersized by BYB's, millers and such. I keep thinking about the 101 dalmations, Hooch, and of course the American Bulldog in one of those shows.

I think Jim Hall summed it up well...had they searched long enough they would have gotten a little one that NEEDED the help.
Having sat back and watched this thread, I personally not only didn`t find CLM confrontational, but i also tend to agree with a majority of what was said. Due to allergy issues the families breed choices are limited. We did a search lastnight on the breed they chose and hmmm not one purebred to be found. The puppy was a return so technically he is a rescue.

ACO22 it is very sad that your image of breeders has become sooo jaded. I find sometimes the way you force your thoughts akin to the thinking that created the BSL laws in Ontario. I invite you to come to my neck of the woods anytime to meet a totally ethical breeder. The woman i got my Qman from is the best of the best. A truly ethical breeder does it for the love of the breed, they either break even or lose money on each litter. In a perfect world it is the byb`s and puppymills that need to disappear and the ethical breeders be preserved.
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  #33  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
Having sat back and watched this thread, I personally not only didn`t find CLM confrontational, but i also tend to agree with a majority of what was said. Due to allergy issues the families breed choices are limited. We did a search lastnight on the breed they chose and hmmm not one purebred to be found. The puppy was a return so technically he is a rescue.

ACO22 it is very sad that your image of breeders has become sooo jaded. I find sometimes the way you force your thoughts akin to the thinking that created the BSL laws in Ontario. I invite you to come to my neck of the woods anytime to meet a totally ethical breeder. The woman i got my Qman from is the best of the best. A truly ethical breeder does it for the love of the breed, they either break even or lose money on each litter. In a perfect world it is the byb`s and puppymills that need to disappear and the ethical breeders be preserved.
That is very interesting Aslan that one would lump ACO22 opinion about breeders to that of the creation of the BSL laws in Ontario. Now that is a revelation!
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  #34  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:42 AM
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My point is that not everything is soooo cut and dry. There are grey areas in the world not just black and white. As in the BSL just because some bullies are to put it politely,, screwed... doesn`t meant they all are. Just like because there are byb`s and puppymills doesn`t mean all breeders are bad.
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  #35  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
My point is that not everything is soooo cut and dry. There are grey areas in the world not just black and white. As in the BSL just because some bullies are to put it politely,, screwed... doesn`t meant they all are. Just like because there are byb`s and puppymills doesn`t mean all breeders are bad.
The point of this thread was 'I think' the disappointment some may have had in regards to his decision. 'I think' that he did previously state that he was going to go to a shelter or rescue however was given a 'gift'. That 'gift' (and not to mention a word that everyone I hope wishes to avoid) is not a rescued pup. This little pup was a return. There is a difference between a return and a rescue.

In the end, the family will no doubt give this very lucky pup a good home...afterall eveyone is watching.
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  #36  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:00 PM
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The point of this thread was 'I think' the disappointment some may have had in regards to his decision. .
Yep, I 'think' so too but it seemed to switch topics by the op herself to bashing all breeders.

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In the end, the family will no doubt give this very lucky pup a good home...afterall eveyone is watching.
Or maybe simply because they love this pup and are a loving home, regardless who's watching.
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  #37  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post

Or maybe simply because they love this pup and are a loving home, regardless who's watching.
I agree.

I can't think of another white house pet that has caught so much attention.

Cindy
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  #38  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
Yep, I 'think' so too but it seemed to switch topics by the op herself to bashing all breeders.



Or maybe simply because they love this pup and are a loving home, regardless who's watching.
Not to mention insinuating that ones opinion is related to the BSL. Just a thought, I think off topic.
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  #39  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:17 PM
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I can understand ACO22's views of breeders.

IMHO, anybody who has a love for dogs doesn't want any dogs to be euthanized, gassed or to sit in cages. That means, that until there are homes for all dogs and cats, nobody should be breeding. I could not in any way, shape or form allow my cat to breed no matter how "good" of a breed standard she/he was with all the cats that are homeless. I just don't have the morals to do so.

I hope this pup has a happy and loving life with the Obamas, every family should have a pet to love.
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  #40  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Not to mention insinuating that ones opinion is related to the BSL. Just a thought, I think off topic.
If you go back and read what i said, I at no point said it was related to the BSL. I said,,"in my opion" the black and white thinking reminds me of the BSL thinking. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion. What i disagree with is the " everyone is entitled to MY opinion thinking"
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  #41  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
If you go back and read what i said, I at no point said it was related to the BSL. I said,,"in my opion" the black and white thinking reminds me of the BSL thinking. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion. What i disagree with is the " everyone is entitled to MY opinion thinking"
so well said Aslan. Not to mention the bullying of always the same person regardless of like opinions or not. But hey - that is off topic too now isn't it.
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  #42  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:25 PM
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Oh Mr. President

Honestly what does it matter if he bought this dog from an ethical breeder, received it as a gift or rescued it from a shelter. The Obama family researched the breed and made a choice based on their particular family situation.
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  #43  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by coppperbelle View Post
Honestly what does it matter if he bought this dog from an ethical breeder, received it as a gift or rescued it from a shelter. The Obama family researched the breed and made a choice based on their particular family situation.
In the end coppperbelle it doesn't matter at all. It's done.
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  #44  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:31 PM
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Black and white thinking is truly a bad thing. Gotta have all those shades of grey in between.

Mind you I love my opinions.

I can so understand how people in rescue can wonder at how people can breed cats and dogs when there are so many shelters and how people can want to get a dog or cat from a breeder.
I got my dogs from breeders. You can like it or not, but it was my choice to make and I'll defend that right and anyone elses right to do the same.
All 3 of my cats however are rescues and look after a number of strays. Same deal, my choice and I'll defend that right as strongly as the first.

Cindy
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  #45  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:37 PM
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I feel exactly the same way. And I'm sure there are very nice breeders out there but I feel like no one should be breeding until this overpopulation problem is taken care of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I can understand ACO22's views of breeders.

IMHO, anybody who has a love for dogs doesn't want any dogs to be euthanized, gassed or to sit in cages. That means, that until there are homes for all dogs and cats, nobody should be breeding.
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  #46  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:45 PM
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The way i see it is, if all dogs are spay or neutered, and No one is breeding. Yes that would help with the overpopulation. But would that not cause the canine species to become extinct, since there would be no purebred or otherwise to breed?

If all ethical breeders(breeding to preserve the line) stopped breeding then only byb puppies or puppymill puppies would exist. Would this not damage the bloodlines and lead to medical or mental issues in the breeds?
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  #47  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post

If all ethical breeders(breeding to preserve the line) stopped breeding then only byb puppies or puppymill puppies would exist. Would this not damage the bloodlines and lead to medical or mental issues in the breeds?
Yes asking ethical breeders to stop breeding would entice puppmillers and BYBs to meet a demand. This is very true and infact would be disasterous.

Your statement about stopping the millers and BYBs is the only way to combat the overpopulation (along with everyone sterilizing their pets) is on the money. That is not a grey way of thinking. This is the only way to protect the integrity of breeds that are properly bred but this will not however alleviate all medical and mental issues unfortunately.
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  #48  
Old April 15th, 2009, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
The way i see it is, if all dogs are spay or neutered, and No one is breeding. Yes that would help with the overpopulation. But would that not cause the canine species to become extinct, since there would be no purebred or otherwise to breed?

If all ethical breeders(breeding to preserve the line) stopped breeding then only byb puppies or puppymill puppies would exist. Would this not damage the bloodlines and lead to medical or mental issues in the breeds?
I didn't state they should be altered, but I do believe they can stop breeding for a period of a couple of years.

As for puppymills, that wasn't brought up, so I didn't mention them, I wish they could just be banned for this earth .

Anywho, that was my opinion because my heart cries a tear for every pet who is homeless.
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  #49  
Old April 15th, 2009, 01:06 PM
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I think people have truly forgotten how much we owe to purebred dogs.
Some people need dogs. Not as pets, but as working dogs. Their lives and the safety of the public depend on it. They don't do this because they have to, or enjoy it....they do it so that you and your children can go about your day safely and with comfort. Mixed breeds are great, but even many purebreds, bred and trained specifically for that task, cannot measure up to the high demands of such serious work.....
K9s aside, what about all the other life saving careers purebreds excel at?

Mixed breeds are great, and are often better at alot of things then purbreds, but there is no consistancy. I would rather put my life in the hands of a dog who has inherent traits that make it suitable for the work.

I guess that is just my opinion.
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  #50  
Old April 15th, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I didn't state they should be altered, but I do believe they can stop breeding for a period of a couple of years.
I wasn't directing my comment at your previous one and.... I'll agree, that's a great idea!

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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
As for puppymills, that wasn't brought up, so I didn't mention them, I wish they could just be banned for this earth .

Anywho, that was my opinion because my heart cries a tear for every pet who is homeless.
As does mine and every other animal lover out there...and here.
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  #51  
Old April 15th, 2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
Just like because there are byb`s and puppymills doesn`t mean all breeders are bad.
I understand the difference between byb's and puppy mills and responsible breeders.

What I am talking about is the breeders that are classifed as reputable and are not, yet the public doesn't know it. I am talking reputable breeders that are the highest rank, in clubs that are world wide known, etc.

I know there are people that are responsible, yet I still see them as contributing whole heartingly to the pet overpopuation. All for profit. While you walk the hall of a humane society and see all of the unwanted animals. When you live it everyday, you get a different preception of it. Now, don't mistake this as being rigide, close-minded, but when you look at it, it's fact. I wouldn't call my opinion/view...black and white. alot of people are just not fully aware what is going on around them, in the animal world. It's scary. In the animal welfare field that are many shades of gray...but at times, it is black and white and it needs to be. The fact is I love love love my job. It is my dream job you would say and because of it i see and view things differently then others at times.

ACO22

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  #52  
Old April 15th, 2009, 06:07 PM
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All for profit.

But it's not "all for profit" for a number of great breeders. They are the ones who are breeding to improve or maintain healthy genetic bloodlines. Profit has nothing to do with it, especially since the quality of care and health testing that they provide their animals usually means losing money. If it wasn't for the responsible breeders, the good genes would get lost and the bad genes of the BYBers and millers would prevail (as Aslan pointed out).
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  #53  
Old April 15th, 2009, 06:23 PM
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The fact is, times have changed. The majority of people do not look for a dog to be a "working" dog. They look for a dog to be a member of the family. In which case a "mutt" is "just as good" as a purebred dog.
I have a purebred. She has suffered from seizures since she was a year old. Bad breeder? Probably. Unfortunately I didn't know about BYB's when I got her almost 15 years ago. I love her to death.
I also have a mutt. As kr has told you she is the goofiest, friendliest dog you could ever hope to meet. She is our greeting committee. At almost 14 years old she gets so excited when she sees company coming. Her back end is a non stop motion machine. I love her to death too. She is from a shelter.

My point - Shelters have far too many dogs, both mutts and purebreeds, who are on their final chance. We need to find a way to put a stop to the BYB's and irresponsible owners who let their dogs mate willy nilly before anything will change. How are we going to do that? The only way I can see is education.
Which brings me back to the original point in this thread. As far as I can see Ohbama did his research before deciding, and being gifted with, this dog. He didn't rush out and get the first dog available. Could he have done better? Sure could. So could we all.

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  #54  
Old April 15th, 2009, 07:18 PM
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Some have commented : "If they had searched long enough ....."

Wow , this is the president of United States , I think he has more important issues to deal with , than to hang out in shelters ..... the president did NOT commit a crime by taking this dog , jeez , give him a break !!!!
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  #55  
Old April 15th, 2009, 10:50 PM
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Frenchy, I agree with you. He does have more important issues to deal with.

aslan, I agree with you. Not every breeder should be treated the same.

BenMax, I agree with you. It doesn't matter, its done.

L4H, I agree with you. My heart breaks for each and every poor soul out there.

14+, I agree with you as well. We all could have done better.

Aco22, guess what, I agree with you as well...There are people out there, who present themselves as reputable, while in fact they are nowhere near that description.

Jim, I agree with you as well, I think they could have done better had they invested the time ..

Sugarcatmom, I agree with you very much, it is not all for $$ for alot of breeders out there.

Blackdog, you have an excellent point, but I don't really see how a labradoodle is going to be less trainable to work than a lab, or how a mixed-breed dog is less possible to be trained to work. I think that is all about a specific dog. Not every sheppard is a good guard dog and not every lab is a good "eye-seeing" dog. The general idea is there, but I don't discount the possibility that given a chance and a proper training the mix-breeds would do just as well.

clm, I agree with you: Black and white thinking is truly a bad thing. Gotta have all those shades of grey in between. And I think we gotta start with ourselves first, before pointing at others.

brat, I agree with you, breeding should be postponed until some of the situation has been resolved. and would like to add, that its not as simple as that, it has to come from the law as well as the public.

Copperbelle - yes, I agree with you. They did research the breed and made a clear and conscious decision about the breed they wanted. That is more than most people do.

Sylvie - I agree with you, kudos to Aco22 and to others involved in various rescues and shelters for all your hard work, don't lose hope and keep your spirits high!

And now: !!!

Have I missed anyone?
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  #56  
Old April 15th, 2009, 11:30 PM
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As one with allergies, like one of the Obama kids, the chances of finding an appropriate dog at a shelter is next to nil. It took me over a year to find Scruff and that was just dumb luck. Of course the Pres would have more contacts and pull than I do..but still.
How much worse would it have been for him to get a shelter dog only to have to give it up becuase a daughter was allergic.
I think his choice was very responsible.
My concern is also with the potential 'instant popularity'of a challenging breed.
I hope it doesn't happen, but I don't have much faith in humans.
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  #57  
Old April 16th, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Blackdog, you have an excellent point, but I don't really see how a labradoodle is going to be less trainable to work than a lab, or how a mixed-breed dog is less possible to be trained to work.

It's more about inherent ability and drive moreso then training. A good trainer can bring out the best in a dog and train it to do a task......whether the dog has the ability to do it well or not is entirely up to genetics. I'm not saying mixed breeds cannot be trained to excel in careers, many do and do it very well....as you said, it comes down to the individual dog and his or her drives. That being said, there is more consitancy in a purebred dogs tempermant. What I mean by that is, you are more likely to find a dog suitable to do the work in a litter of purebreds whos bloodline has been excelling at the said task for many generations. I'm not saying every shepherd can gaurd, and every GP will protect a flock from predators.....but you are more inclined to find an individual suitable for the job within breeds specifically designed for that task. Purebreds also have the advantage of recorded lineage, this is a great bonus for anyone looking for a working dog. Proper research of a pedigree only increase the odds that you will get what you are looking for.

All of that being said, even with extensive research on the bloodlines and the right "breed" there is still a huge possiblilty that the dog will not be suitable for the work..as ultimately it depends on the individual dog and his drives.

It comes down to the handler as well. I have not met many serious proffesionals willing to take on a mixed breed.....too many question marks about the dog. But of course, a serious proffesional is not going to turn down a good dog either, be it mixed or pure!

I guess it all comes down to personal choice, but I think a quick look at the dogs doing the real work prove that we still need purebreds, and they do their respective jobs very well.

Not every sheppard is a good guard dog and not every lab is a good "eye-seeing" dog. The general idea is there, but I don't discount the possibility that given a chance and a proper training the mix-breeds would do just as well.

It ultimately comes down to 3 things, genetics, training, enviorment. A good working dog cannot have one without the other. Plain and simple, mixed or pure. Being mixed makes it impossible to explore genetics, you basically have to 'hope for the best'. Training a mixed breed for certain specialized jobs is a crapshoot and not often done for obvious reasons
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  #58  
Old April 16th, 2009, 08:51 PM
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I heard this pup has been in several homes already...

I was hoping he would rescue.. but i did JUMP up and down when I dound out he was not getting a labradoodle.. Seriously.. that's all we need, more people believing that a 'oodle' anything is a 'breed' when it is a MUTT, and encourage more of that kind of irresponsible breeding..

If this is the breed they really wanted, if it came from an ethical breeder. And it really needed a home after being shuffled so many times already, then I am happy. It is ok to choose a purebred dog. Any ethical breeder I have dealt with does have it in the contract that the dog is to be spayed or neutered..

I don't think this will cause a portie population explosion, like I was worried about the doodle mutt possibility.. so all in all I am happy. I think his girls will be in love, and this dog will be their best friend, good match for all of them.

The reason I wanted him to rescue, was not for him, but hoping that it would encourage others to do the same. I guess it was unfair of us to put that job on him. That he would be picking a pet for his family for the reason of saving others. For me that is a prefect reason, but for him.. guess not.. I don't think he had a chance, no matter what he did people would have been outraged..
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  #59  
Old April 17th, 2009, 03:26 AM
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I am very glad they didn't pick a labradoodle . The labradoodle fad is already at full tilt and most people think they are "hypo allergenic" but really they don't get that way for generations which probably causes a lot of "returns" as people have to deal with regular coat issues . I''m sure this will make PWD a new target but hopefully one that is a bit harder for the BYB crowd as it is not a common dog.

I must admit I love PWD (my old neighbours had one and he totally made me love them) and have wanted one for quite some time. We looked for one when we were considering another dog and they are very difficult to find.

Bo is adorable and I think they were responsible. It is not the ideal situation that rescuing would be but I think this was a pretty good compromise.
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  #60  
Old April 20th, 2009, 08:46 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
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Hate to say this but we had a PWD in rescue so they are in the system. Just had to say this.
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