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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Bustersparents Bustersparents is offline
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Buster is sick (Advice)

I and my wife had no idea that he (Buster - Pekingese) was sick. He acted a little lethargic but nothing like we have seen with a sick cat (we have 9) when they get lethargic. His appetite has not gone down, nor has he had no reduction in urination, drinking or eating. His breath was bad but yet it is time for a dental cleaning. He gets no cat food seeing as it stays on tables I built that are just over knee high.

We made the appointment for his regular check up two weeks ago and the appointment was today.

After doing a blood test they say he is in renal failure and has to have a transfusion. After a urinalysis they say the kidneys are not condensing the urine and that verifies that the transfusion will only make him feel better for a short while but his prognosis is that he may have six months but no more. He is only 34 months old and has not had any health problems till now. We keep our meds closed up so the cats canít even get to them (we donít drop them and leave any on the floor) and he has not been around any poisons. We don't have a bug problem of any sort. No I don't spray but maybe once or twice during the summer and haven't done that yet. The spray hasn't been purchased either.

I don't believe everything I read on the net but am confused as to why so few symptoms and yet prognosis so grim? He has only seemed very little lethargic for around 2 weeks but seemed to go anywhere he wanted with ease and wasn't breathing hard even playing. They say his O2 levels are low. Would seem he would be panting after running up 18 steps which he does and is not panting.

I don't mind being told things straight up and can take constructive criticism.

But I need some well founded advice please.

They are doing an X-Ray at a 24 hour hospital but haven't heard back from that yet.

Tha bank may be in renal failure but all we care about is getting him well.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:34 PM
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I dont know very much about dogs, but I hope he gets better soon.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:41 PM
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I would get a second opinion ASAP. It never hurts to verify things with a second vet, especially when the diagnoses is so severe.

I don't know much about renal failure, but I have heard that it can come on very sudden, sometimes by the time the owner finds out it's too late for treatment. I hope someone more knowledgable on the subject replies to this.

I think your doing a really good job, it's obvious you love your pup very much. I'm so sorry she is sick. Best of luck to you and your family.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 09:01 PM
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I'm sorry you're pup is going through this. I agree though that you should get a second opinion. There could be some treatment for him. The best of luck.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:29 AM
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Sorry to hear Buster is not feeling well. I have a cat with Chronic Renal Failure (CRF) & we have be managing the disease very well for almost 2 years now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
nor has he had no reduction in urination, drinking
Animals with renal failure will be drinking & peeing more not less

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
His breath was bad but yet it is time for a dental cleaning.
Bad breath & teeth can be indicative/contributors of health issues, bacteria gathers on/around the tarter/plaque on the teeth, under the gum line & enters the blood stream affecting the heart, kidneys etc

A dog that is not yet 3 and needs a dental cleaning shows there is something definately wrong be it medical or food related.

What are you currently feeding?

Has the vet ever mentioned about brushing your dogs teeth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
After doing a blood test they say he is in renal failure and has to have a transfusion. After a urinalysis they say the kidneys are not condensing the urine and that verifies that the transfusion will only make him feel better for a short while but his prognosis is that he may have six months but no more. He is only 34 months old and has not had any health problems till now.
Do you have a copy of the test results? Can you post the numbers for BUN/Urea, Creatinine, phosphorus, potassium, calcium from the blood work and the Urine Specific Gravity (USG) from the urinalysus?

By transfusion do you mean a blood transfusion? Or lactated ringers solutions/electrolyte fluid replacement therapy?

Blood transfusions don't affect/aren't given for renal disease unless the animal has severe anemia as well.

The fluid therapy will definately help to re-hydrate Buster making him feel better, depending on how severe the progression of the disease is the fluids will be given either under the skin (subq) for short or long durations or intraveinously (IV) for short durations/emergency situtations

The volume and frequency of the fluids given will depend on how severe the disease is and the vets advice.

Renal disease is not always an older animals' issue, it can be genetic or trauma related (injury, poisoning via meds, recalled food, anti-freeze, toix plants, etc) and of course in most cases age related. It is a fatal disease but can be managed, depending on severity & treatment plans some animals do very well for many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
I don't believe everything I read on the net but am confused as to why so few symptoms and yet prognosis so grim? He has only seemed very little lethargic for around 2 weeks but seemed to go anywhere he wanted with ease and wasn't breathing hard even playing. They say his O2 levels are low.
Kidney failure can pretty much only be determined once they've lost about 75% of function, that is why it seems so sudden. Animals are so good at hiding any illness that often when noticed there has been significant progression.

Low blood oxygen levels can be indicative of anemia.

I have so many more links for CRF in cats but here are some that pertain to dogs as well:

Kidney Failure in the Dog & Cat
Veterinary Partner - Kidney Failure
K9Kidneys Support Group

for good news from the xrays
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Old April 5th, 2009, 03:22 AM
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I am so sorry you are having to face this. Shayker was diagnosed on January 2, 2003 and I lost her on April 21. 2003. (she was only 14 months old) Knowing now, I would have let her go sooner. The vet said it was painless, but Shayker was in pain in the end. I came home and found her at the door. She was gone....Just love your dog with all your heart and enjoy what time you have left.


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Old April 5th, 2009, 07:31 AM
Bustersparents Bustersparents is offline
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Quote:
What are you currently feeding?

Has the vet ever mentioned about brushing your dogs teeth?
We have only fed him Royal Canine for ****zu as per the vets recommendations from the first visit to the vet when we got him.

Quote:
Do you have a copy of the test results? Can you post the numbers for BUN/Urea, Creatinine, phosphorus, potassium, calcium from the blood work and the Urine Specific Gravity (USG) from the urinalysus?
I will get them today and post what they say in here.

Quote:
By transfusion do you mean a blood transfusion? Or lactated ringers solutions/electrolyte fluid replacement therapy?
They did a blood transfusion with fluid therapy. They are now saying that the new blood shows signs that the red cells are being broken apart some and that number was 9 when they got him and went to 30 after the transfusion and this morning is at 22. They say they are looking for it to stop going down and stabilize. The next 12 to 24 hours will tell according to them. They say they still have no idea what is causing any of this. They are saying the only way to tell about his kidneys is a biopsy. The anesthesia is hard on the kidneys and it would not be advisable.


The X-Rays showed normal kidneys with no abnormalities.

When we took him in we were going to have them schedule his teeth to be cleaned but that quickly took a back seat to this.

I will look at the links just wanted to answer what you asked first.

Thank you.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 04:28 PM
Bustersparents Bustersparents is offline
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Buster passed away this noon. According to the vet his platelets had begun to break down and was in full renal failure and had not urinated in around 7 hours even with IV fluids being administered.

I am on a quest to find what may have been the root cause of this. As per the vet it could very well be inbreeding. Considering this teeth were in bad shape not just from tarter but the front teeth were very loose and week.

We don't have toxins around and what may be a toxin to animals is securely stored and they are kept away for more that the recommended time if they are ever used. Our oldest cat is over 18 years old and gets away with murder. The youngest is just about 3 years old. We love animals as if they were our own blood.

As my wife said. "Our first dog (Gizmo) will take good care of Buster across rainbow bridge until we get to see them again." They will have a lot to talk about seeing as they were and are loved beyond limitations.

Gizmo was also from a breeder whom later we found out was inbreeding to an extreme just for the almighty dollar. He lived for just over five years after being diagnosed with an enlarged heart. At the time he was diagnosed he was stage three.

Can DNA tell if this was inbreeding or a known genetic trait?

We miss him greatly. Attached is a photo of him.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 04:35 PM
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You and your wife have my deepest condolences. I can't tell you how sorry I am for your loss. What a beautiful little boy you had. I'm in tears right now.

If indeed his illness is due to inbreeding, you should report that breeder. They should not be producing animals, just so they live a miserable life. Your Buster did not deserve to go through this.

Be at peace Buster.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 05:11 PM
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I'm so sorry for your loss, Busterparents What heartbreaking news! :sad:

Genetic testing is expensive and is in such an early stage that it likely wouldn't give you much information. Certainly close inbreeding can increase the chances that deleterious or even lethal recessive traits develop...we, too, had a sweet little dog that suffered from the consequences of inbreeding. Even if there is a test that will identify the genetics behind what happened to poor Buster, it probably will not be able to definitively tell you if inbreeding was the cause. Might be a good idea to talk to a geneticist at the facility that does the testing before you decide to have it done.

My sincerest condolences to you and your family. Buster was very lucky to have had you to love him during his short life.

Buster
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Old April 5th, 2009, 07:35 PM
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I think the only way to find out if your dog is inbred is to research the pedigreee.
It may be hard to understand at first, but eventually it will make sense. Enlist the help of a reputable, experienced breeder if you need help or get stuck.
Chances are, inbreeding wont immediately affect your dog after 7-8 generations, unless there is ALOT of inbreeding in subsequent generations or a high concentration of one dog further back (like lance of fran jo in many american line gsd).

If you have a pedigree on hand, you can downlad a "pedigree program" to help you figure out things fast. A quicker way would be to add your dogs pedigree to pedigreedatabase.com, though it wont give you extensive information like a pedigree program would, it will tell you the linebreeding in your dog.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancientgirl View Post
If indeed his illness is due to inbreeding, you should report that breeder. They should not be producing animals, just so they live a miserable life. Your Buster did not deserve to go through this.
Report the breeder to whom? There are no laws (in either Canada or the U.S.) that REQUIRE a breeder of anything to ensure the genetic health of the offspring. Puppy mills and backyard breeders abound and the only way to avoid either is to educate yourself.

I am very sorry for the loss of Buster.

I would strongly suggest to anyone looking to get a puppy of any breed - RESEARCH THE GENETIC ISSUES COMMON TO THE BREED YOU ARE INTERESTED IN!!!! By knowing what to look for and what can be done BY THE BREEDER to minimize the chances of puppies being affected - you can greatly improve your chances of getting a puppy that will live a long and healthy life.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Bustersparents Bustersparents is offline
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Any advice is helpful to us.

All I have been able to track down thus far is that half of his great grandparents are the same on both sides of his family. Is this considered inbreeding too closely for animals?

Question:
If a breeder says to me; they have had a puppy or so have a problem with the kidneys failing to develop. Should that be an indication they are aware of the inbreeding or health issue in the offspring?

Renal failure Uhhh....Kidney.

Still looking for answers thru the pain.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 10:52 PM
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I am so sorry for your loss...May an angel guide your little one over the bridge....

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Old April 5th, 2009, 10:52 PM
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I am so sorry you've lost Buster :sad:

sweet Buster He is playing at the Rainbow Bridge with those who've gone before


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
They did a blood transfusion with fluid therapy. They are now saying that the new blood shows signs that the red cells are being broken apart some and that number was 9 when they got him and went to 30 after the transfusion and this morning is at 22.
It sounds like Buster might also have had Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia or something similar. Renal failure no matter how severe does not attack the red blood cells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
Question:
If a breeder says to me; they have had a puppy or so have a problem with the kidneys failing to develop. Should that be an indication they are aware of the inbreeding or health issue in the offspring?
Yes that is an indication that they know there is some faulty genetics in the lines and should not be breeding those dogs.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:25 PM
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I am so sorry for your loss. I just saw this thread today and just read it. Please know that our thoughts are with you and your family at this time. Run free at the bridge Buster run free
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustersparents View Post
All I have been able to track down thus far is that half of his great grandparents are the same on both sides of his family. Is this considered inbreeding too closely for animals?

As long as the other lines of the same generation are not too closely related, that's actually wouldn't be considered too closely bred. If you can get a 5 generation ped to look at, that might tell you more.

Question:
If a breeder says to me; they have had a puppy or so have a problem with the kidneys failing to develop. Should that be an indication they are aware of the inbreeding or health issue in the offspring?
Yes, imo, if they have a recurring problem, they need to be looking at the genetics of their lines and fixing the problem--or getting out of the breeding business entirely.

Unfortunately, what they are doing is not illegal, unless Alabama or your municipality has a lemon law that applies to puppies. You might want to check into that--some states have that sort of legislation. It doesn't cure the heartache but it can at least help cover some of your vet costs.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:10 AM
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I just wanted to extend my sympathy on the loss of your precious Buster. I lost my beloved Scottie girl to kidney failure and I really understand how hard this is for your family. May you find peace and strength during this difficult time.

Sweet Buster
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:41 AM
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So very very sorry for your loss. little Buster. May you run pain free.

Just a note - I have lost 2 dogs due to this ailment. One was very old and the other was a sheppie in rescue approximate age of 6 years. The vet cannot pinpoint why but I would consider probably the food. There seems alot of dogs and cats nowadays that are dying of renal failure....very suspicious.

Again, my condolences.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:56 AM
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My thoughts are with you.


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Old April 6th, 2009, 12:52 PM
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We have only fed him Royal Canine food. It is supposed to be one of if not the best for Buster.

Much to my amazement AKC has no regulations as to inbreeding. This was via email and a phone call. There are NO recommendations or regulations for the breeder. Like a fool I assumed they cared about the dog. They also have no real action for breeders that knowingly breed unhealthy animals.

I am the only justice Buster now has. I will pursue what took his life as strongly as I love him.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 06:27 PM
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Buster is sick

Just recently one of my customer's dogs developed kidney stones and her vet's 1st. question was what are you feeding. This dog is a 6 yr. shih-tzu and she had been feeding RC for shih-tzu's for about 2 yrs. Vet insinuated RC has been involved in numerous kidney ailments that he had seen personally. You might want to question your vet's knowledge of the ingredients that might precipitate the formation of kidney problems.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 12:10 AM
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We have only fed him Royal Canine food. It is supposed to be one of if not the best for Buster.
Royal Canin is the reason my cat has kidney failure, the food she was eating was part of the toxic recall from '07.

In 2005 (I believe it was) there was a recall with their food regarding an over dose of vit K in their productions which was also causing health issues.

I wouldn't trust any food Medi-cal/Royal Canin ever produces.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 01:53 PM
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From what I have been able to find the food he was eating was not part of the recall. It was the food specifically for shih-tzu and that doesn't seem to show up on a recall lists I have seen so tell me where to look. I realize that this does not mean they did not recently add nuclear waste to the food. If you know of a list that has the food he was eating please let me know.

I did contact the FDA and they are very interested in the food I still have. I will not surrender all of it to them. I will send some to a lab independently and pay for the test myself.

Any advice in judging a good honest breeder would also be a big help to me. Also what amount of what they call line breeding or inbreeding would not cause health issues. My opinion is that it shouldn't be allowed at all. But yet I am not a professional in that field. So, any advise would be appreciated.

My wife still can't get ready in the mornings because they played the whole time she was getting ready every day, even on days she didn't work. That really became a site to watch. She sat and brushed him every morning and cleaned his fold over his nose and under his eyes every morning too. She used puppy wipes.

Thanks again for everyone's advise condolences and information.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 02:35 PM
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Give your wife a big hug for me It's so hard :sad: They become such a part of our lives and our daily routines and we never get enough time with them.

As to inbreeding and how much is too much... There are no genetic guarantees--even a non-inbred animal can have gene-based illnesses. However, after doing some reading and talking to some geneticists, we set a limit of 6.25% inbreeding coefficient when we were looking for Ember. A lot of breeders get closer than that--aunt to nephew or uncle to neice is not uncommon. If I remember correctly, that give you an IC of 12.5%.

Also, if they tell you they're line breeding and it's not the same as inbreeding, they're wrong. Line breeding is a form of inbreeding since they're breeding related individuals. Inbreeding is how a breed type is established and is maintained, but if it's excessive, genetic problems are more likely to occur.

Every couple of generations or so, it's also a good idea to infuse a new not-closely-related bloodline to maintain genetic health. So you'll want to look at some pedigrees from breeders and see what they're doing with the bloodlines. You can find calculators for Inbreeding Coefficient on the web...but I've lost all my links (just had a major computer crash :sad If I find one, I'll post the link for you.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 03:44 PM
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My advice to you would be to reserach a super premium food such as orijen and compare the ingredients list with royal canin, from that point you will need to research the individual ingredients and the effects they have on dog nutrition. This should be very easy to do as there are many resources on dog food information on the net. I don't think I would send the food to the lab if your sure it was not part of the recall....while contamination could be a factor, the culprit is likely just poor quality ingredients.


When looking for a breeder, you hold all the cards and it is ultimately your responsibility as a buyer to do your homework. The first thing you should do is be well versed in your desired breed. On the spot you should be able to list all or most of the common ailments in your breed as well as cite breed history. Ideally you will also have a strong understanding of the bloodlines within your breed. If you don't know squat about your breed, how on Earth are you supposed to be able to pick out a breeder and in the future be an advocate for the breed? Good breeders watch for this and will not sell a puppy to someone who knows very little about the breed. A good breeder will politely tell you to do more research and help guide you in the right direction to do so.

Basically, breed research is your first step and before you even THINK about choosing a breeder, you need to know what your looking at. To research properly takes a very long time, but it is worth it. The more you know the better prepared you wll be in the future.

A good breeder will be active in SOME type of activity (conformation, agility, ob...etc) and they will have titled stock to prove it. Be wary of people who claim that their dogs are adept in these areas but have no dogs or progeny with titles to prove it.

A good breeder will be in good standing with a reputable breed club. REGISTRIES mean nothing anyone can become a member of a registry like CKC or AKC as long as they have a registered dog.......this is not an acheivement, or anything to be proud of, it's simply a registry, nothing more. That being said, a good breeder always registers their dogs and progeny with a reputable registry....they just don't make a giant deal out of it.
A breed club is much different then a registry, it's pretty much exactly as the name the implies...a club. Most clubs are usually formed of breed enthusiasts and breeders working towards a common goal, the betterment of the breed. Involvement in one or more breed clubs is always a plus when looking for a breeder as it shows dedication to the breed.

A good breeders FIRST emphasis will be on health. That is the bottom line. What good is a great tempered dog with perfect structure if it is doomed to suffer from health problems all throughout his life? A good breeder understands that without health, you have nothing.
A good breeder ALWAYS health tests their dogs, all breeding dogs will be thoroughly health checked and they will have the certificates to prove it(run fast from people who claim they health test but "the papers haven't come in yet", or they "misplaced" them).


A good breeder will ask you a TON of questions when you call or meet them in person. This is to make sure you are going to be the very best home for their pup. They will ask for references, including your vetrinarian and they will call them. They are not in the business of selling puppies, therefore they have nothing to lose if you are not an ideal placement for a dog. You have to prove to them that you deserve one of their pups, as they truly care about the pups and would rather keep them then give them to someone who is not a good match.

A good breeder can tell you everything about their dogs and bloodlines, the good and the bad. Beware of kennel blind breeders, no line is perfect and no dog is perfect. A good breeder can tell you the faults of their dog and tell you what they are doing to improve it.
It is important for you to ask the breeder "what is the purpose of this breeding, why are you breeding these two dogs, what do they have to offer the breed, what are the faults of these dogs and can you explain to me how the progeny of these dogs will be an asset to the breed". A good breeder has a purpose for every litter and will be able to tell you that goal/purpose without hesitation.


A good breeder does not breed often. Planning a litter takes alot of time and hours upon hours of research. A good breeder is meticulously matching and comparing bloodlines and researching every genetic possibilty. I would be wary of someone breeding more then once a year.....that's my personal opinion, for reasons I will save for another day

RUNFAST from any breeder whom cannot supply you with references from a vet, past clients and ideally, another reputable breeder or club.

Also, anyone who will not allow you to come to their home. What do they have to hide?
I personally am wary of breeders who keep dogs in kennels and who house more then 6 dogs. I just find it unnessecary and find it hard to imagine being able to give all those dogs adequate attention and training. Again, that's just my personal opinion.


As far as linebreeding goes, nobody can answer that question on here for you. It's up to you to thoroughly research your breeds bloodlnes. Then you can answer for yourself....after much research you may decide you would like a dog whom has light linebreeding on a dog you like....maybe you'll want a heavier linebred dog....perhaps you will want a complete outcross. This is all up to you and your research. Nobody can generalize linebreeding as it is specific to whatever dog is in question (being linebred on).


I hope that helps, again this is just all personal opinon, so take it for what it's worth.
I know it may seem impossible to find someone with all those qualifications, but speaking from experience they are out there. It just takes time......
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Last edited by Blackdog22; April 7th, 2009 at 03:56 PM.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 08:29 PM
Bustersparents Bustersparents is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7
Thank you for the time and the advice. The testing is merely a precaution due to the history of the company whom has had a lot of food recalled.

I do believe I have to and am doing a lot of reading about the breed and care for the breed. Including their origin and health issues and how to quickly spot them early and avoid them. It will be some time before I try to purchase another due to having so much to learn about them. This was our second Pekingese. The first was given to us by a friend because he had a scar on his eye. We use to breed cats and did as you said but we allowed about one litter every 16 to 18 months. They are very time consuming. We didn't show them but some did very well in shows. Our cats were never caged.

The breeder I obtained Buster from had about 15 or so dogs and about half were on the stackable cages the rest was in custom pins that were nicely done and clean.

Yota, I have much to learn about Pekingese.

Thank you Blackdog22 and others for being candid.
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