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  #241  
Old March 17th, 2009, 12:12 AM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Turid Rugaas (spelling?) also mentions in her book Calming Signals that we should be more like mothers to especially pups than trying to dominate and always show them who's boss.
  #242  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cell View Post
We should not “mother” our dogs because dogs don't "mother" their puppies the way that human mothers "mother" their children.
Human beings have a different life history pattern, social structure, interactions, communication and care base. Also remember that the complete anatomy and brain structure between dogs and humans is wholly different. Human beings have highly advanced frontal brain lobe allowing us infinite capacity to think ahead, behind, problem solve and strategize. The development of this huge brain and its capacity produces a helpless offspring which is slow to develop physically and mentally. We typically produce one single offspring and provide it undivided care and attention, we incubate our offspring longer and are forced to carry them around constantly for around first 5 years of their lives because we have lost the hair, and they have lost they post natal strength to physically support themselves like our primate cousins. Also remember that it has not been for long in our evolution that we have been sedentary animals who establish a home range, we are still in the early evolutionary stages of branching from nomadic hunter gatherers.
Dogs produce a large litter of offspring who are also born defenceless but develop very quickly. They stem from pack based carnivores whose ancestors have a strict home base that is strictly patrolled. Their young are also born helpless but their defined territory allows the young to remain enclosed in a den site for the first weeks of their lives while they are provided the care they need to develop. The mother does not provide individual care and attention to each puppy she does not have aspirations for each individual, all the puppies are raised them as a group unit. In dogs and many other mammals the weak are commonly not encouraged but instead nature plays its course and the weak do not survive, sometimes poorly individuals are discouraged from survival at the benefit of the stronger, to construct the strongest pack unit, or in the case of dogs who live in a looser pack unit then wolf cousins simply the strong win out while the weak succumb. Mother dogs do not follow the care of their offspring after a certain point they are essentially cut loose to fend for themselves among the others and they have to find their place.
I have no idea how the conclusion was drawn that by saying to not mother dogs as if they were children has anything to do with the idea of “Disparaging motherhood is done by tiny little "men"” who “blame the women and slap the dogs into submission”. Remember for thousands of years dogs have lived beside men not with them as scavengers and hunting tools. It has only been the past few hundred years that people have begun incorporating dogs into the human family unit, it is a relatively new concept that we are still running trial and error with for the most part. Because for many years the knowledge of dog’s physiology was pretty dim people would try and “break” dogs similar to how horses use to be broken, using violence and physical overpowering, because they did not know how to overpower the mind.
Just providing a dog with food, water, housing, and activities does not necessarily make a balanced dog they require ongoing discipline and structure. You can’t just tell a dog what to do you have to show it they do not communicate in words they know you by how you smell and the projection you put forth of your own level of self confidence. I have no doubt in what Caesar says that animals of any species will follow the wisest, most confident and calm leader who can be entrusted to bring safety and tranquility to the family unit.
As much as we try to treat dogs like humans in hopes of getting back the human type affection we desire, they will still treat us in the only way they know how, which is like a dog.
Exactly. Well said.
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  #243  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:49 AM
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Exactly. Well said.
I agree. Well done.
  #244  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:50 AM
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Well said cell!

While some think of themselves as mothers or fathers to their dogs, I think of him more as my buddy. Yeah I give him food, and teach him manners, but he's my bud, not my son. I think that too many people out there "mother" too much. In that context I mean it as coddle and overprotect. Now not everyone does that of course, but there are a lot of owners out there that do, and humanize their dogs to the point that they are completely insecure in their natural environment, and don't know how to interact with their own species.

And how on earth did you make the leap from someone talking about mothering a dog to "Dispariging motherhood is done by tiny little "men" who never grew up and feel the need to blame someone else for everything wrong in their lives. Yup, blame the women and slap the dogs into submission." ?

First of all, no one here is disparaging motherhood to HUMANS, second, all men never grow up (sorry to all the guys couldn't resist that one), and the last? Give me a break you're insulting men everywhere with that one (maybe your mom's manners lessons are a little hard to remember right now). I may poke fun at guys for acting like kids sometimes, but maybe we could all use a dose of acting like a kid every once and a while.
  #245  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:19 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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I found this on a group I belong to and thought it explained things very nicely. This is reposted with permission from the author, Charlotte Wagner.

----

First let me introduce myself: my name is Charlotte and I run a positive training academy which I started in Washington DC in 2006, and moved over seas to London. In my practice I conduct mainly behavior modification training, with a special interest in aggression rehabilitation; in addition I offer obedience, puppy training, and on occasion therapy dog and sport dog training (agility, rally obedience, and tracking for hunting dogs). I was raised in a household where aversive methods were the primary way of training and raising dogs, but despite this upbringing, had a very eager interest in positive and force free methods. I own a 3.5 year old Golden Retriever certified therapy dog (and CGC) named Riley, who I track with for hunting, and am starting agility with. I also own a 5 month old Toy Manchester Terrier named Asher, who is currently in obedience training, and will be competing in Agility and doing advertisements.

About positive training: it is not bribe training. Dogs that only come when they know you have a treat in hand, is not correct positive training, nor do you need to have treats on you in order to receive a consistent, reliable, and "obedient dog". I use the term "obedience" with caution, because a dog which does not respond to commands is not being "disobedient", "listening with one ear" or is not responding out of "spite", but is merely poorly trained or dependent on tools in order to respond. Keep n mind that when acquiring a dog, regardless of age or experience, you can only expect your dog to be a dog - and not more or less. If Fido comes into the home with a great disposition - wonderful! But he still needs training to be a well adjusted human companion, and it is the owner's responsibility to show the dog how to act in a human world, and how to adapt to living in the home environment.

This brings me to my next point: the use of aversives and other tools to train and raise your dog. Aversive tools range from shock collars, prong collars, citronella sprays, water bottles, choke chains, and head halters, to any other aid which may suppress a dog's behavior. Most dangerous tools in my opinion are shock collars and choke chains. The reason being they can cause short term and long term physical damage to your dog. Prong collars can also have physical consequences if used excessively but are less harmful if used correctly due to the evenly exerted pressure when applied. But, be cautious of trainers demonstrating on prong collars on you - your thigh or arm is not based off of the same tissue material as that of your dog's neck - I would love to see a trainer demonstrate a prong collar on a client's (human) neck. Prong collars do cause pain and are definitely not the best thing for training. Choke chains on the other hand, apply pressure to a single point, and in contrast have no limit to the amount of slip. Despite the fact that they may look less painful, they cause an even more detrimental damage to a dog's trachea. A more humane and considered acceptable choke action tool is a martingale / limited choke / or no slip collar. This tool is based on the same principle as the prong collar (limited choke, pressure all around) but does not have prongs on them: they are commonly made of nylon with a chain bit, or layered chain.

No matter what tool you may use, it is still best to use a regular leash with a flat collar or harness. The main concern (other than physical consequences) of using any other tool, is the suppression of behavior, which often resurfaces, and the breaking of the relationship between you and your dog. In addition, it is really difficult for the dog to understand a reprimand, and then being reinforced or praised when they display the correct behavior. Furthermore, tools do not teach a dog an alternative behavior, but merely teach them what to avoid *not even what not to do*.

I suggest looking further into positive reinforcement techniques: mainly clicker training and the use of Operant Conditioning and Classical Conditioning. These may seem like big terms, but they are simple principles tested, proven, and guaranteed by scientific study. Learning theory (how we / animals learn) is the most studied field in psychology, and I wish more people applied these humane and force free methods on their pets. Zoos, and other institutions use these methods to train a variety of animals, and I myself, have applied positive reinforcement training on dogs, horses, and cats.

Be cautious of punishment or "consequence" based training methods. They can cause harm to a dog, and worsen behavior. Also, you are not "teaching" the dog, or showing it alternative responses, nor are you guiding the dog - you are breaking an extraordinary relationship you could be sharing with your pet. Even if these methods have been successful, they put your dog under much undo stress.

I recommend checking out The Association of Pet Dog Trainers, International Association of Positive Dog Training, Dogwise.com for books and resources, as well as dogstardaily.com. All these resources can supply you with information, listings, and further help on positive dog training.

As for "dominant" or "alpha" based trainers / training who use intimidation and punishment techniques - I would be cautious of their principles. It is a trainers duty to study not only their own principles, but also those of other trainers in the field. I have read a vast variety of books from traditional German Hunting books, to whichever TV trainer's have published and everything in between - are these other trainers really educated? What do they _base_ their methods on? What is the legitimacy of their principles? Is there any legitimacy to their training? Remember, just because it make's sense, doesn't mean it's right.

On a last note - know that you cannot take the position of alpha, and the hierarchy amongst dogs is a much debated subject with sadly little proof in the domestic environment. Even wild and feril dogs only have a loosely structured hierarchy, that is not identical to that of the wolf. And although our domestic dog may be biologically related to the wolf, it is not identical in social contexts due to domestication. Remember that your dogs are not out to get you and their intentions are not to take over - they simply need guidance, to one degree or another, depending on their needs, and your expectations.



Best of luck to all of you, and I wish for you to have a long lasting enjoyful life with your canine companion.

Charlotte

Last edited by Ford; May 11th, 2009 at 07:30 PM.
  #246  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:20 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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Charlotte also gave me permission to post this article.

----

The Effects of Aversion in Dog Training

By Charlotte Wagner

Throughout history, humans have reared, raised, and trained domesticated canines to aid in specific work-related tasks and provide companionship within the family. Dogs have been marketed as “man’s best friend” through television series such as Lassie, Rin Tin Tin and Homeward Bound, however, man has not always proven to be canine’s best friend. Regrettably, many inhumane and forceful techniques used to train the original hunting, herding, and service dog still exist in training today. Fortunately, the scientific study of learning has proven that the traditional use of force, aversive tools, and hierarchy-based methods is not longer necessary, and can have a detrimental effect on the dog’s mental health and overall well-being.

Physically punishing a dog who has displayed undesired (yet often natural) behavior can have detrimental consequences to the dog’s physical and psychological well- being. If the punishment itself is not correctly executed to extinguish the behavior after the first two to three trials, then there is serious danger for punishment to cause the escalation of extraordinary pain. World renowned clicker trainer Karen Pryor explains that: “the hideous thing about the escalation of punishment is that there is absolutely no end to it” (Pryor, 105). Punishment placed in the judgmental hands of the individual has the potential to reach severe and brutal force. In addition, the associations made during the time of physical discomfort can also contribute to psychological distress, which can lead to extreme behavioral problems. “Repeated or severe punishment has some very nasty side effects: fear, anger, resentment, resistance, even hate in the punished one and sometimes the punisher too” (Pryor, 106). In the best case scenario punishment does not teach a dog an alternative response, but evokes avoidance behaviors in order to dodge a correction. In most cases however, punishment worsens behavioral issues and can even conceal alternative behaviors. “generally, the more intense the aversive stimulus, the more the response will be suppressed” (Reid, 119).

In conjunction with using forceful punishment, pain-inflicting training tools such as choke chains, pinch collars, and shock collars can have further damaging effects on a dog’s disposition. One of the most common complications with using aversive tools is the incorrect association between the consequence of the behavior and the environmental circumstance in which it occurs. “Such 'training' aids lead the dog to associate pain with the object he is lunging or aggressing at - not a good start to the desensitization process!” (Dennison, 18). Unfortunately, owners use these tools when undesired behaviors such as jumping, barking, whining, and lunging occur, yet dogs do not associate these natural behaviors as incorrect; rather, they learn to react aggressively or fearfully towards their environment. Additionally, aversive tools can have physical ramifications, due to pressure and electronic shock during their use.

Along with using punishment, force, and aversive tools, many trainers, owners, and handlers opt to use dominance-based hierarchy techniques to train dogs. This method is merely a facade for using intimidation techniques, in which behaviors are suppressed by the human assuming an “alpha” role though punishment. Although in some cases there are immediate responses, assuming an “alpha” status in a domestic environment can cause suppression of both desired and threatening behaviors, which commonly resurface with greater intensity. “The whole dominance idea is so out of proportion that entire schools of training are based on the premise that if you can just exert adequate dominance over the dog, everything else falls into place. This is dangerous. Not only does it mean that incredible amounts of abuse are going to be perpetrated against any given dog...” (Donaldson, 19). Moreover, humans displaying dominance behaviors conflict with the human-canine bond “If you think your acting-out dog is the leader and you try to emulate his behavior in controlling him, what you are really doing is acting aggressively towards him. This way of thinking is not useful in trying to maintain a positive relationship or good training environment” (Dennison 22). Conflicting messages often occur when owners exhibit dominance during training without being anatomically equipped like a canine. Undesired behaviors are challenged when the owner punishes a behavior that is an absolutely natural ritualized display for the dog without teaching an alternative. “For instance a dog is punished for jumping up when greeting people faces a conflict because it is motivated to greet the person but expects punishment if it does” (Reid, 123). Since fear-based alpha methods require dominance-based techniques, they are also not safe for children to practice. Dominance trainer Jan Fennel confesses: “ Young children are clearly not going to be able to grasp the principles of my method instantly.”(Fennell 63). Since children are not capable of physically pushing, pulling or prodding dogs into a desired position, it is easier to show them how to lure a behavior using a reward, as commonly seen when teaching a dog to sit by lifting a treat.

The use of forceful punishment techniques, painful training tools, and hierarchy based dominance methods is no longer justifiable for training the working or companion dog today. Since the days of traditional dog training, there have been many advances in the scientific study of learning and animal behavior which prove that dogs are not out to get there owners, nor are they vindictive by nature. Psychological learning theory is the basis on which positive, non-aversive, motivational, and reward based training is built. Using positive reinforcement techniques allows people to establish a harmonious relationship in which the dog learns and the human teaches in an optimal, force-free, and pain -free environment. Jean Donaldson confirms that: “they don’t need to be promoted to intelligence or morality to merit fair treatment or places in our families.” Donaldson’s approach to training is researched and realistic in contrast to the hierarchy-based methods practiced by Fennel, who states that: “... my method cannot remove the aggressive tendencies of any dog... my methods will never be able to alter their potentially savage nature. What my methods can do is allow people to manage their dogs so that this aggressive instinct is never called upon” (Fennel, 06). Trainers, owners, and handler should consider giving back to their dogs, after they have been “man’s best friend” for decades. Luckily, the scientific study of animal behavior has made it possible for humans to continue bonding with their canines for centuries to come: “The prevailing winds, in fact, would make it our responsibility to have a clue about the basic needs of the species we are trying to live with as well as a clue about how to modify their behavior, with as little wear and tear on them as possible, so that they fit into our society without totally subjugating their nature” (Donaldson, 11).

Copyright Charlotte Wagner
1 October 2008


Works Cited
Dennison, Pamela. How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong. Loveland: Alpine, 2005.
Donaldson, Jean. Culture Clash. Berkley: James & Kenneth , 1996.
Fennell, Jan. The Practical Dog Listener. London: Harper Collins, 2002.
Pryor, Karen. Don't Shoot the Dog. New York: Bantam Books, 1984.
Reid, Pamela. Excel-Erated Learning. Berkeley: James & Kenneth, 1996.
  #247  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Physically punishing a dog who has displayed undesired (yet often natural) behavior can have detrimental consequences to the dog’s physical and psychological well- being. .
First of all, there is a HUGE difference between physically punishing (aka ABUSING) your dog - and innterupting the behavior through sound or movement - at all times, never touching or coming in contact with the dog. Behavioral training is NOT always about physically interacting with the dog itself, which is why when I read something like this - . A trainer who is trying to advocate treat-training, by assumptions based on not being able to achieve the same result by taking food out of the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maui_blue_eyes View Post
If the punishment itself is not correctly executed to extinguish the behavior after the first two to three trials, then there is serious danger for punishment to cause the escalation of extraordinary pain. World renowned clicker trainer Karen Pryor explains that: “the hideous thing about the escalation of punishment is that there is absolutely no end to it” (Pryor, 105). Punishment placed in the judgmental hands of the individual has the potential to reach severe and brutal force. .
As a behavioral trainer myself, I would NEVER use severe or brutal force on my dog. The other behavioral trainers I know would also NEVER use any type of painful interaction to achieve their goal. This is such phooey, it makes me laugh.
Might I add that one of my clients recently put her dog in agility (where they are clicker-training the dogs through the course.) In this owners words:

"My dog becomes neurotic and aggressive towards the clicker and me. I was bitten twice. Even when I didn't click my clicker - she would hear the clicker across the room and lose focus on what I was doing."

Clicker training does not always work for every dog. The only thing I've ever said as a trainer is that if one method works for you - then great. If it doesn't? Seek something else. These articles are stripping apart a training method with lies, assumptions, and totally tear apart all the hard work we behavioral trainers have put into making our methods SAFE for every dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maui_blue_eyes View Post
In conjunction with using forceful punishment, pain-inflicting training tools such as choke chains, pinch collars, and shock collars can have further damaging effects on a dog’s disposition. .
I have NEVER used these tools, nor do I reccomend them to anyone. Maybe this woman should talk to a behavioral trainer who believes that they are unneccessary tools, before implying that they are used by all behavioral trainers, hmm?
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  #248  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:37 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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Bailey,

This was not directed at you. I think you have explained your training methods and you sound like a great trainer. I just wanted people to read the article, as I thought it was well written.
  #249  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:38 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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She is not impying that any group of trainers (behavioural trainers or whatever) uses these methods. She is simply saying why they should not be used.
  #250  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:41 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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One more thing, she is not necessarily advocating treat training, but positive, reward based methods. Which we have already discussed can be anything the dog enjoys. So relax Bailey, it was not an attack on you, or your training. Just posted for people to read.
  #251  
Old March 18th, 2009, 02:54 PM
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Quoting various pieces of the article...

"Along with using punishment, force, and aversive tools, many trainers, owners, and handlers opt to use dominance-based hierarchy techniques to train dogs. This method is merely a facade for using intimidation techniques, in which behaviors are suppressed by the human assuming an “alpha” role though punishment."

HUGE misconception here. Alpha is not gained through punishment. In the training that I follow (Brad's for those that don't know), alpha is gained in many ways. Being more confident, adjusting your posture, umbilical exercises, eating before the dog, going through doors and up stairs first, not letting them up on the furniture, there are many others as well. None involve punishment. Mostly body language, interruption of unwanted behaviour, for example, blocking them from going past you when going up the stairs, picking up your pace on a walk if they are pulling or changing directions. If you give the command to sit, and the dog doesn't do it right away, you don't repeat commands and lift up lightly on the leash.

"Although in some cases there are immediate responses, assuming an “alpha” status in a domestic environment can cause suppression of both desired and threatening behaviors, which commonly resurface with greater intensity. “The whole dominance idea is so out of proportion that entire schools of training are based on the premise that if you can just exert adequate dominance over the dog, everything else falls into place. This is dangerous."

Of course it's dangerous, if there are behavioural issues that need to be worked out, it's not all going to be solved by being the alpha. It helps, but it won't solve some behaviours, especially when aggression is involved. You do that by trying to understand the cause of the behaviour, and then working on solving it through interruption, conditioning, and other methods.

"Not only does it mean that incredible amounts of abuse are going to be perpetrated against any given dog...” (Donaldson, 19)."

Hooey! Ms. Donaldson should be professional enough to know that when you make an assumtion about a certain method, all that does is make an out of you and me.

"Moreover, humans displaying dominance behaviors conflict with the human-canine bond “If you think your acting-out dog is the leader and you try to emulate his behavior in controlling him, what you are really doing is acting aggressively towards him. This way of thinking is not useful in trying to maintain a positive relationship or good training environment” (Dennison 22). "

If I was emulating my dog, I'd be mounting dogs at the park to be the boss and barking at them when they're behaving badly. Doesn't exactly send the right message to the public . Some trainers will say to growl at their dogs, but I specifically remember asking Brad about that, and him saying, well, that's kind of silly, we don't speak dog so what are you actually telling him when you growl, you might send the wrong message.

"Conflicting messages often occur when owners exhibit dominance during training without being anatomically equipped like a canine."

Don't know if I want to touch that one

"Undesired behaviors are challenged when the owner punishes a behavior that is an absolutely natural ritualized display for the dog without teaching an alternative. “For instance a dog is punished for jumping up when greeting people faces a conflict because it is motivated to greet the person but expects punishment if it does” (Reid, 123)."

Dogs are fully capable of greeting someone without jumping. I may interrupt my dog from jumping, but it doesn't mean that he can't greet. If I step on the leash, he can't jump up, gets an immediate interruption if he does, yet the visitor can stick out their hand for him to sniff if he's calm and sitting, so therefore the alternative is being taught even though by Reid's definition, the dog is being punished when the leash is tightened.

"Since fear-based alpha methods require dominance-based techniques, they are also not safe for children to practice. "

Alpha methods are not fear based, they are based on being a leader, and some are safe for children to practice, assuming they are old enough and have supervision. A child is fully capable of lifting gently on a leash for a dog to sit. I would think that it's highly unsafe for a child to be feeding the dog treats to train, as there is a high probability of getting accidentally bitten by an exhuberant puppy.

"Dominance trainer Jan Fennel confesses: “ Young children are clearly not going to be able to grasp the principles of my method instantly.”(Fennell 63)."

Yes, this sounds like a "confession". Jeez. Young children aren't going to grasp the concepts of ANY method instantly.

"Since children are not capable of physically pushing, pulling or prodding dogs into a desired position, it is easier to show them how to lure a behavior using a reward, as commonly seen when teaching a dog to sit by lifting a treat."

This wasn't said by Ms. Fennel of course, see my comments above on kids and training.

"The use of forceful punishment techniques, painful training tools, and hierarchy based dominance methods is no longer justifiable for training the working or companion dog today. "

It's justifiable in my house to alpha train, and I don't use painful training tools. My dog is a fantastic companion.

"Donaldson’s approach to training is researched and realistic in contrast to the hierarchy-based methods practiced by Fennel, who states that: “... my method cannot remove the aggressive tendencies of any dog... my methods will never be able to alter their potentially savage nature. What my methods can do is allow people to manage their dogs so that this aggressive instinct is never called upon” (Fennel, 06). "

How is Fennel's statement less researched and realistic? What Fennel said is absolutely true, and Donaldson is being unrealistic if she thinks that she can remove the aggressive tendency of any dog. A dog that has aggressive tendencies can be taught to say, greet and interact with other dogs properly, but that aggressive nature can never be removed or rehabilitated. It's part of being a dog. What she was trying to say that by using methods such as interruption, the owner can teach their dog how to interact without being aggressive, or feeling the need to be. Every dog, no matter what their demeanor, will bite if given the right reason. You as the owner have the responsibility of making sure they never have that reason.

"Trainers, owners, and handler should consider giving back to their dogs, after they have been “man’s best friend” for decades. Luckily, the scientific study of animal behavior has made it possible for humans to continue bonding with their canines for centuries to come: “The prevailing winds, in fact, would make it our responsibility to have a clue about the basic needs of the species we are trying to live with as well as a clue about how to modify their behavior, with as little wear and tear on them as possible, so that they fit into our society without totally subjugating their nature” (Donaldson, 11)."

This is one of the main principles of what Brad taught us. Meet and exceed the needs of your dog, create a strong bond of love and friendship, and reward good behaviour. Work hard at training, make sure they get enough mental and physical stimulation, and have fun!
  #252  
Old March 18th, 2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maui_blue_eyes View Post
Bailey,

This was not directed at you. I think you have explained your training methods and you sound like a great trainer. I just wanted people to read the article, as I thought it was well written.
Maui,

Thanks - I know you didn't directly post it about ME specifically - but generally speaking, this article is bashing the very core of what I believe in and what I do. I used myself and my belief values as an example to reply to what she's stating in that article.
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"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail."

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Tippy (Collie/ShepX)
Vali (American Bulldog)
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  #253  
Old March 19th, 2009, 02:14 AM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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Well, all I can say is this article is not an opinion piece. Learning theory is a proven, scientifically sound approach. This is up to date information about dominance as well.
  #254  
Old March 19th, 2009, 07:10 AM
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If it is scientific knowledge please cross post the peer reviewed case studies with references as to where they are published.
It doesn't matter if it is in a subscription only online journal I can gain access to them all.
Otherwise everything is here-say stated as "scientific", which is the danger of the internet.
To state something is scientific with no documented proof is insulting a wealth of knowledge that has been put forth by generations of skilled, trained scientists. Show me the evidences and I will formulate my own opinion, until then everything posted is a biased opinion based knowledge disguised as fact by people who can hide behind a reputation.
  #255  
Old March 19th, 2009, 11:45 AM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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Cell the article had her references at the bottom. I did not write it so can't comment on that. I posted it for her because the forum would not let her log in.
  #256  
Old March 19th, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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Originally Posted by maui_blue_eyes View Post
Cell the article had her references at the bottom. I did not write it so can't comment on that. I posted it for her because the forum would not let her log in.
Weird. Why?
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  #257  
Old March 27th, 2009, 04:36 PM
ZiggysWife ZiggysWife is offline
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Thumbs down Cannot STAND Brad Pattison

I'm coming into this conversation very late. I found this thread while looking for dog treat recipes. Yes, I give my dogs treats which BP is totally against. I completely loathe and despise BP. I don't believe for one moment that he even remotely likes animals. He is in it for the money, I've told that to his face. He's an actor and he is acting like a dog "trainer". I went to a seminar with BP and what he did to my dogs is nothing short of abuse. My four month old Lab was physically abused by him. How does a frightened dog act when it's cornered and being threatened? Brad is a great showman, he gets the responses he wants by skewing things. Corner a frightened dog and then force it to submit? My dog went ballistic! She was terrified and tried everything to get away from the grip he had on her collar. He held her in the air as she struggled, she scratched at him, her eyes were bulging, her tongue was turning purple and when I tried to say something he yelled at me to let him do his job. I was horrified and still am by what he did. He did tell me though that this FOUR MONTH OLD PUPPY was too savage and would have to be put down by the time she was 11 months old. I'm not going to go into all the details but he is a disgusting piece of work. And what he did to my Shih Tzu still sends shivers down my spine. And when I posted messages on his webpage, his deranged fans sent me death threats and threatened to kill my dogs as well because I dared speak out against him. I can't even believe what we went through because of that.

No one should ever watch his show or follow his methods if they even remotely like animals. BP has a special hate-on for rescue dogs, which both of mine are. Try asking him for his credentials, you'll never get them because he doesn't have any. He is a self-declared expert. It means nothing. Whenever I meet a dog trainer now, the first thing I ask is if they believe in BP's methods. So far, every single trainer I've met hates him for his methods. Which is good, because I would NEVER allow anyone who bought into BP's methods near my dogs ever again. He shouldn't be on television, he shouldn't be allowed to "train" and he should pony up his so-called credentials and name these celebrities he's claimed to have helped. He needs to be shut down.

Oh, and my savage lab that was doomed to die? Is now 17 months old, happy, we go to the off-leash every day (and YES, she is off-leash) and we have no plans to kill her on the say-so of that "trainer".
  #258  
Old March 27th, 2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ZiggysWife View Post
I'm coming into this conversation very late. I found this thread while looking for dog treat recipes. Yes, I give my dogs treats which BP is totally against. I completely loathe and despise BP. I don't believe for one moment that he even remotely likes animals. He is in it for the money, I've told that to his face. He's an actor and he is acting like a dog "trainer". I went to a seminar with BP and what he did to my dogs is nothing short of abuse. My four month old Lab was physically abused by him. How does a frightened dog act when it's cornered and being threatened? Brad is a great showman, he gets the responses he wants by skewing things. Corner a frightened dog and then force it to submit? My dog went ballistic! She was terrified and tried everything to get away from the grip he had on her collar. He held her in the air as she struggled, she scratched at him, her eyes were bulging, her tongue was turning purple and when I tried to say something he yelled at me to let him do his job. I was horrified and still am by what he did. He did tell me though that this FOUR MONTH OLD PUPPY was too savage and would have to be put down by the time she was 11 months old. I'm not going to go into all the details but he is a disgusting piece of work. And what he did to my Shih Tzu still sends shivers down my spine. And when I posted messages on his webpage, his deranged fans sent me death threats and threatened to kill my dogs as well because I dared speak out against him. I can't even believe what we went through because of that.

No one should ever watch his show or follow his methods if they even remotely like animals. BP has a special hate-on for rescue dogs, which both of mine are. Try asking him for his credentials, you'll never get them because he doesn't have any. He is a self-declared expert. It means nothing. Whenever I meet a dog trainer now, the first thing I ask is if they believe in BP's methods. So far, every single trainer I've met hates him for his methods. Which is good, because I would NEVER allow anyone who bought into BP's methods near my dogs ever again. He shouldn't be on television, he shouldn't be allowed to "train" and he should pony up his so-called credentials and name these celebrities he's claimed to have helped. He needs to be shut down.

Oh, and my savage lab that was doomed to die? Is now 17 months old, happy, we go to the off-leash every day (and YES, she is off-leash) and we have no plans to kill her on the say-so of that "trainer".
Hi Ziggys Mom.

Wow. Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Brad certainly steps on a lot of toes due to his abrupt nature, and I'm sorry you feel so strongly against him. We are all allowed to have our own opinions, and I'm really glad that you have a great relationship with your dog.

You mentioned that you have yet to meet a trainer who believes in Brads methods? Well, hi! I'm a trainer, and I strongly believe in much of Brads training. Do I talk to the owners the same way Brad does? No. But I'm not him.

I just needed to really say something that struck me as odd - your comment about Brad having a "hate-on" for rescue dogs? Completley and utterly UNTRUE.
Not only did Brad personally help me rehabilitate a dog I rescued from India (2 year old doberman x), he's also travelled to Katrina at the time of the disaster to rescue dogs there. By no means does Brad have a hate-on for dogs that did not come from breeders.

I hope in the meantime you'll be able to find the kind of training that works for you and your dog.
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  #259  
Old March 28th, 2009, 11:17 PM
ZiggysWife ZiggysWife is offline
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You know Bailey, I wrote this really long reply full of everything I thought but I got an error message and it didn't get posted. Probably a good thing considering I wrote everything I feel at the moment. But I did want to point out that Brad has stated, out of his own mouth, how much he hates rescues and the special treatment they get. I have also met several people whose rescues were abused by him. You're not going to change my opinion and I'm not changing yours and it doesn't matter. All that matters is that I wouldn't let you near my dogs. No offence but nobody that follows Brad's methods is ever getting near them. You probably don't care about what he did to my dogs, since you consider nearly choking a dog to death as "stepping on toes" so you feel free to think what you want and so will I. And I'll continue to tell everyone I possibly can about what Brad did to my dogs, and what I know he did to others, just so other people won't have to go through what we did. Knowledge is power and if I'd have been fully aware of what a psychotic maniac he was, I wouldn't have subjected my dogs to his abuse and terror.

Respectfully,
ZiggysWIFE not Ziggys Mom
  #260  
Old March 29th, 2009, 01:56 AM
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Luvmypitgirls Luvmypitgirls is offline
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Sorry you are so offended Lynn B - that is my opinion and this thread is opinion based.

To me my 'opinion' is that he is a total goof ball, big mouthed, idiot. My opinion can be critisized, bastersized, validated, shut down, thrown out or agreed upon...it really does not matter.

Not trying to be rude.
BenMax, I'll validate your opinion because I share in your opinion of this man 100%!
  #261  
Old March 29th, 2009, 02:16 AM
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Luvmypitgirls Luvmypitgirls is offline
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Originally Posted by ZiggysWife View Post
You know Bailey, I wrote this really long reply full of everything I thought but I got an error message and it didn't get posted. Probably a good thing considering I wrote everything I feel at the moment. But I did want to point out that Brad has stated, out of his own mouth, how much he hates rescues and the special treatment they get. I have also met several people whose rescues were abused by him. You're not going to change my opinion and I'm not changing yours and it doesn't matter. All that matters is that I wouldn't let you near my dogs. No offence but nobody that follows Brad's methods is ever getting near them. You probably don't care about what he did to my dogs, since you consider nearly choking a dog to death as "stepping on toes" so you feel free to think what you want and so will I. And I'll continue to tell everyone I possibly can about what Brad did to my dogs, and what I know he did to others, just so other people won't have to go through what we did. Knowledge is power and if I'd have been fully aware of what a psychotic maniac he was, I wouldn't have subjected my dogs to his abuse and terror.

Respectfully,
ZiggysWIFE not Ziggys Mom

ZiggysWife, your post about what BP did to your dog, brought tears to my eyes. I'm so sorry you and your puppers went thru that. I just want you to know that I feel the same way about this man as you do.
I would never ever allow anyone that uses his methods around my dogs.
I did find an obedience class that I wanted to put Abby in a couple years ago, when I asked what sorts of methods they use, I was asked have you ever seen At the End of my Leash? That put an end to that and I hung up.

I have met a lot of ppl that are not "professional" dog trainers, who have rehabed many dogs, with huge success, and without using harmful tactics like I feel Brad uses.
Just my opinion.
  #262  
Old March 29th, 2009, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiggysWife View Post
You know Bailey, I wrote this really long reply full of everything I thought but I got an error message and it didn't get posted. Probably a good thing considering I wrote everything I feel at the moment. But I did want to point out that Brad has stated, out of his own mouth, how much he hates rescues and the special treatment they get. I have also met several people whose rescues were abused by him. You're not going to change my opinion and I'm not changing yours and it doesn't matter. All that matters is that I wouldn't let you near my dogs. No offence but nobody that follows Brad's methods is ever getting near them. You probably don't care about what he did to my dogs, since you consider nearly choking a dog to death as "stepping on toes" so you feel free to think what you want and so will I. And I'll continue to tell everyone I possibly can about what Brad did to my dogs, and what I know he did to others, just so other people won't have to go through what we did. Knowledge is power and if I'd have been fully aware of what a psychotic maniac he was, I wouldn't have subjected my dogs to his abuse and terror.

Respectfully,
ZiggysWIFE not Ziggys Mom
ZiggysWIFE (not Ziggys Mom) - I honestly feel that you have read my comments in a wrong light. I absolutley feel for what happened to you and your dogs, and I would NEVER expect anyone who has experienced something they felt was bad training or bad methods, to continue seeing that trainer. Nor would I do so myself with my own dogs.

Now, specifically speaking about Brad as this is who you have brought up - what I meant when I said 'stepping on toes' is exactly that. Dog training aside, Pattison is the kind of person that doesn't care who's feelings he hurts or what boundaries he pushes. He's an extrovert, period. Many personalities clash with him, and I've seen him in many heated arguements, including with me. I'm not saying I agree with this side of him, and to be honest I think he could've kept a lot more clientelle if he had been more understanding and respectful of owners. BUT, he's not careful all of the time; and he's created quite the following because of it. I'm truly sorry that you and your dog had to go through that. :sad:

As far as Brad saying what he did about rescues, I have no doubt that's true. He's also said that more people NEED to rescue dogs, because there are too many thousand dollar dogs out there who are taking their place. He sees a pro and con side to owning either, and as a trainer I think that's perfectly normal. I do as well, for my own reasons; as I'm sure everyone else here on this forum does.

In fairness, I'm not a Brad advocate in any way. I'm not even affiliated with him, for my own personal choices and reasons. I run my own business and do so successfully. I've taken a little bit of training methods from all the different people I have met, over the years that I have been doing this, and I love what I have accomplished. I work hard to ensure that everyone can have a happy and fufilling life with their pet.
So, just for the record, I think it's unfair for you to point your finger at ME and tell me that I am just like someone you feel abuses animals.

Don't be so quick to label and judge. I'm sorry for your bad experience.
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  #263  
Old March 30th, 2009, 09:54 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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ZiggysWife - I am so sorry that this happened to you. Not pleasant.

I am certainly NOT a BP fan however one must look at what all trainers have to offer. I am certain that he does have something to offer .....but to the 'right' dog. Meaning - a dog that he understands and I truly think (and I say think) dogs that he can help using normal everyday methods. Give him something outside that box and I think he is lost.

I learn from other trainers on what to be or not to be. I learn even from the worst of trainers something that I can use...something 'good'.

He had no right condemning a young dog this way. So many people put all their trust in others and this can be very dangerous. I have seen on TV how he handles some dogs and I absolutely hate it. I dislike and disapprove of the way he treats people....which is sometimes worse than the animal in question.

Where you able to extract anything good from BP though? I am very curious to hear more.
  #264  
Old March 30th, 2009, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ZiggysWife View Post
My four month old Lab was physically abused by him. And what he did to my Shih Tzu still sends shivers down my spine. .
Ziggyswife, I'm curious - did you have both of your dogs at this seminar?

Edit** Nevermind. Just recieved the 'other side' to your story. I'm surprised you're even posting about this situation ZiggysWife, especially with aggressive dogs on your hands that you have clearly enabled.
I am always more than happy to keep an open mind on people's situations, but when you accuse an entire forum of sending you death threats? Please. Those people could care LESS whether or not you like or hate Brad.
This situation really frustrates me now that I understand the FULL picture behind your story. Maybe next time, before sending such serious accusations about a trainer (regardless of who they are) take a step back and look at YOUR involvement in how your dogs are the way they are.
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Last edited by Bailey_; March 30th, 2009 at 12:55 PM.
  #265  
Old March 31st, 2009, 11:23 AM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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I chose "neither."

Personally, I'd love to see more discussion in regards to behaviorists/trainers such as Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell, Brenda Aloff, Stanley Coren etc...who's motivations are the true understanding of dogs, how they learn, and the relationships between them and their humans....not reality tv shows where the main goal is profit $$. Just my .
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  #266  
Old March 31st, 2009, 04:54 PM
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I chose "neither."
Me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
Personally, I'd love to see more discussion in regards to behaviorists/trainers such as Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell, Brenda Aloff, Stanley Coren etc...who's motivations are the true understanding of dogs, how they learn, and the relationships between them and their humans....not reality tv shows where the main goal is profit $$. Just my .
Could not agree more. I'd add Ian Dunbar to the list, who could deliver a serious @ss-whoopin on both Cesar and Brad (but in the nicest possible way).
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  #267  
Old March 31st, 2009, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
Me too.
Could not agree more. I'd add Ian Dunbar to the list, who could deliver a serious @ss-whoopin on both Cesar and Brad (but in the nicest possible way).


This is a really good point though. There are MANY awesome trainers out there who are reputable with wonderful talents in the training world; I think anyone who stands by either Ceaser or Brad (or neither) should at least have the a clear picture about other methods of training and other trainers to say WHY they either do or don't back these 'famous' trainers up.

While I am personally not a treat-trainer, I'd add Norma Jeanne to that list! She rocks!
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  #268  
Old March 31st, 2009, 08:48 PM
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I've also just discovered Ben Kersen and was very impressed by what I saw on Youtube so ordered his set of videos. Bayley's alot like the boxer or pit x pup in his video so I have a feeling his techniques will work very well. She's more into playing when we're out than food, which he tends to emphasize when training then food. His dogs are just totally amazing, which I suppose is why they're called the 'wonderdogs'!

I actually also found a trainer to work with us one on one, she's pretty new to the actual training business but so far she thinks pretty much along the same lines I do so she's coming over on the weekend to meet us.
  #269  
Old March 31st, 2009, 09:48 PM
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His website claims that his school is the only government accredited program in Canada. That's pretty sweet. His prices are not to shabby either. I hope to be one of his students in the future. I have met a few former students of his and they only said good things about the program. From what it sounds like, he is a really good trainer of people and dogs.
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  #270  
Old March 31st, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Never heard of him. Wheres he located?
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