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  #91  
Old February 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM
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OxyMK OxyMK is offline
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Hi Everyone-

I've been following this thread for a few weeks have learned a lot. I've been feeding my two dogs raw since August of 2007. I decided to go raw after reading what actually went into dog food. Until I started reading this, I was giving them ground turkey, beef, chicken, etc... as well as a variety of vegetables, which I would take through the food processor. I fed them this based on research i did, but again, I didnt realize the information I was getting this from would be considered outdated (circa 2002 maybe?) until I read this thread.
Now, I have decided to cut out the vegetables and been giving them bone-in meat. Unfortunately, I have not been getting the best results, mainly from my younger dog. My older bulldog, Oxford, takes her time when she eats the bone-in chicken leg, thigh, beef ribs, etc... but my younger dog, Ten Bears, scarfs it all down. The other night, he scarfed down the beef rib and started to choke! :sad: My fiance and I were in total panic! We put Ten Bears on his side and stuck our finger down his throat. He was breathing, but still making gagging sounds. After what seemed like eternity, he must have swallowed the bone, but his tongue and mouth was blue for a little bit! He's fine now though
I decided to pound the bones next time I feed him. So this morning, I fed Oxford (the older one) with the bone in meat, since she eats them well. For Ten Bears, I pounded the bones and fed him. Ten Bears scarfed his food down (again!!) and must have eaten about 12 ozs of raw meat in 1 minute! Oxford on the other hand took about 7 minutes to eat all her food. After about 1 hour, I took them both for a long walk and when got home, I noticed Ten Bears was acting strange. He laid down to nap and a couple minutes later, he threw up all his food. It was all still intact and completely undigested.
So now my dilemma... I want to continue giving Ten Bears bone-in raw food, but how can I do this when he doesnt take the time to eat it. Should I give him larger types of meat such as turkey thighs? or should I just go back to giving him ground meat? Any advice would be great!
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  #92  
Old February 24th, 2008, 04:29 PM
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I'm obviously no expert but I was worried about this with Myka at first too. I only give her bones that are too small to choke on, or too big for her to swallow whole. I think the larger chunks of meat should slow him down too. Myka is quite a gobbler as well, but she can't gobble a 3/4 lb chunk of raw beef!! It takes some chewing to get it down!
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  #93  
Old February 25th, 2008, 05:59 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
The other night, he scarfed down the beef rib and started to choke!
OxyMK... choking is a scary position and thank goodness you were there to save the day. Always go bigger... never smaller... bigger. Your dog will never choke on a side of beef.

You have to look to the wild. In the wild if your dog felled or came upon a wonderful carcass, your dog would know that he only has a few minutes to gorge before some competition might come along. He's pull off an much meat as possible, gulp it down, then take off when the larger pack of wolves show up.

That is why I'm always telling people to serve large pieces so that they have to pull off mouthfuls.

It doesn't matter if they swallow large pieces. Digestion for canines begins in the stomach and not in the mouth really. If one dog chokes on a quarter chicken, then give it a half chicken, (etc).

It is interesting that you mention the problem is only with the younger one. If you continue to feed large pieces ,in about 10-20 days or so, he'll re-learn how to eat, and chances are good that you will be able to go back down to smaller pieces once he learns to take his time.

Quote:
he threw up all his food. It was all still intact and completely undigested.
As gross as this sounds, throwing up IS part of canine digestion. WHen they ingest something that requires further pre-digestion, they toss up their cookies, re-chew it, and try again. This is a very normal, common eating process for any dog.

Personally I feel bad for all these people who have developed this crazy concept of grinding meat with vegetables. I don't know where they are getting the information from, but I'll be glad when it's been pushed into the ground and replaced with pertinent information.

Best of luck
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; February 25th, 2008 at 06:01 AM.
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  #94  
Old February 25th, 2008, 08:19 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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both of Myka's canine teeth are damaged and partially dead
Myrka... again, I'm sorry for notremembering the your dog was ill - and, yes, now I do remember the pus thing, but hat was some time ago. It should be healed no????. It's hard to keep up with everyone's issues all the time. Well it is for me anyways. So... sorry!!!! Hope it all heals really soon.

Listen, we have dogs here somtimes with only two teeth, sometimes 4 teeth. Naturally, it takes them longer to eat , but they very , very well managed to eat raw food. The only difference I've noticed is that the absence of fangs makes it difficult for them to puncture and grab prey, but we've also noticed if they have only 1 or 2 molars, they are quite capable of eating raw meat most sufficiently.

The only time we've fed ground food to our rescues is if they have missing jaw parts, damaged tracheas or throats from "polling", or no teeth, then, yes, of course we feed them ground food, we have no choice, and neither do they.

The piece of meat that Peanut has in her mouth does have a rib. It's from a pork rib roast that I found on sale for 99c/lb last week. That's all she got for her supper. In the moring she had one tiny sardine with a teaspoon of green tripe. SHe weights 28 lbs., so the food is more than appropriate for her size. (1/2 lb of food).

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  #95  
Old February 25th, 2008, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
your dog would know that he only has a few minutes to gorge before some competition might come along. He's pull off an much meat as possible, gulp it down, then take off when the larger pack of wolves show up.
I think the reason he does eat so fast is becuase he's worried the older one will take it. I notice this when I give them recreational bones (the ones for stew) and he'll eat it and when he hears the older one coming he shoves it in his mouth and tries to go into an area that the older one can't. Its kind of funny, but at the same time, I see what it is doing to him. Oxford won't take Ten Bears's food if I tell her to back down, but if I start doing something and dont pay attention, Oxford will take his bone and run away. Poor Ten Bears! So that probably explains why he eats so fast. Since I started feeding bone-in meat, Oxford runs upstairs and eats it in the hallway there, so they dont even eat together anymore, but that doesnt stop the younger one from munching away like its his last meal ever! Okay, so when I go to the store, I will look for larger pieces of meat for Ten Bears. Thanks Merlin!
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  #96  
Old February 25th, 2008, 09:06 AM
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uh-oh! I just took the dogs for a walk and I noticed that Oxford had really really loose stool and there seemed to be a drop of blood in there too. Is this normal? Are the bones causing the little bit of blood? im a little worried here! plus, im about to leave for work so I wont be able to monitor her. YIKES!
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  #97  
Old February 25th, 2008, 12:10 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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It's rather normal, especially if it's bright red.
It usually signifies an irritated bowel. Up the meat and reduce the bone.

Cheers
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  #98  
Old February 25th, 2008, 12:12 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Originally Posted by OxyMK View Post
I think the reason he does eat so fast is becuase he's worried the older one will take it.
My point exactly... the larger wolf pack may turn up, and he's out of lunch.

You can control that though. If you assume a very alpha role that lets them both know there will be no stealing or giving up of food, then both will calm down and leave each other alone.

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  #99  
Old February 25th, 2008, 01:23 PM
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Whew! Okay, i'll make sure to give her more meat. Im sure she wont mind that!

Thanks, Merlin!
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  #100  
Old February 25th, 2008, 01:30 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Up the meat just a little.
Raw feeders have to become avid poop watchers.


If your dog gets too much meat, things could turn to, 'runny', and that's not good either. Sometimes the irritated bowel is just a short lived phase that occurs are the internal digestive systems gets used to this new food. Everything in small steps.

Conversely if the poop is too hard and dry, that's a good sign of too much bone. In either case, (too hard or runny) bloody stools can occur if the bowels are irritated.

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  #101  
Old February 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
Myrka... again, I'm sorry for notremembering the your dog was ill - and, yes, now I do remember the pus thing, but hat was some time ago. It should be healed no????. It's hard to keep up with everyone's issues all the time. Well it is for me anyways. So... sorry!!!! Hope it all heals really soon.

Listen, we have dogs here somtimes with only two teeth, sometimes 4 teeth. Naturally, it takes them longer to eat , but they very , very well managed to eat raw food. The only difference I've noticed is that the absence of fangs makes it difficult for them to puncture and grab prey, but we've also noticed if they have only 1 or 2 molars, they are quite capable of eating raw meat most sufficiently.

The only time we've fed ground food to our rescues is if they have missing jaw parts, damaged tracheas or throats from "polling", or no teeth, then, yes, of course we feed them ground food, we have no choice, and neither do they.

The piece of meat that Peanut has in her mouth does have a rib. It's from a pork rib roast that I found on sale for 99c/lb last week. That's all she got for her supper. In the moring she had one tiny sardine with a teaspoon of green tripe. SHe weights 28 lbs., so the food is more than appropriate for her size. (1/2 lb of food).

Merlin

As far as the tooth issue goes, I'm just worried that she may be more prone to breaking her canine teeth on large bones than a dog with good canines, which my vet suggested. It's not a reason to give her ground meat at all.

THEE reason I am feeding her the ground chicken is because she WILL NOT eat bone-in chicken. Not breast bone, not legs, not anything. She won't even chew the meat off. I can feed her nothing but the bone in chicken for FIVE DAYS straight and she will starve for FIVE DAYS instead of eating the bone in chicken. If it is ground she will eat it with no hesitation.

I got some more Mackerel yesterday, and I gave her a partially frozen one. She did the usual...ate the tail half of it, and stopped as soon as she got to the guts. So I deboned the fish, and gutted it. She still wouldn't eat it. So I put a squirt of Salmon oil on it and she ate it without hesitation. Put Salmon oil on fish and suddenly it's different...??

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to stick out this raw diet. It's costing me about $4-6 per day depending what she eats. I can't find any cheaper meat. That's an average of $150/month. That's too expensive for my budget! Unless I find some meat pricing breakthrough I'm going to put her on Ebo Innova.
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  #102  
Old February 25th, 2008, 08:26 PM
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our first few months were pretty rough on the pocket too but we were REALLY lucky to have a dog who will eat anything (including but not limited to paper, cardboard, sticks and other woody products!!! baby boogers on the pants ) we put in front of him AND that we were able to ferret out some hot deals on meat (to admit it wasnt that hard either for our area!) we have managed to keep the price down but i can totally understand, if we had to continue to feed at our initial price, we would have called it quits too.

there is NOTHING wrong with Innova, nor is there anythign wrong with supplementing (as your pocket allows you) with fresh meat (or tails as it may be in your case!!!) and perhaps while you arent stressing, she isnt stressing, you guys might find yourselves with some good inexpensive meat sources that she hasnt felt stressed into eating.

i wouldnt sweat it too much. dogs are dogs are dogs and frankly, im convinced they could live off of love and sunshine alone. they seem to be able to eat most anythign and still thrive. much like children... speaking of which... Jeffrey gets plenty of love, as much sunshine as we can find and lo!! he grew out of his 18mo old clothes right after eating a purple plastic bead.

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  #103  
Old February 25th, 2008, 09:20 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Honestly, I don't think I'm going to stick out this raw diet.
I have to say that Want4rain gave you very good advice.
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  #104  
Old February 25th, 2008, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by want4rain View Post
our first few months were pretty rough on the pocket too but we were REALLY lucky to have a dog who will eat anything (including but not limited to paper, cardboard, sticks and other woody products!!! baby boogers on the pants ) we put in front of him AND that we were able to ferret out some hot deals on meat (to admit it wasnt that hard either for our area!) we have managed to keep the price down but i can totally understand, if we had to continue to feed at our initial price, we would have called it quits too.

there is NOTHING wrong with Innova, nor is there anythign wrong with supplementing (as your pocket allows you) with fresh meat (or tails as it may be in your case!!!) and perhaps while you arent stressing, she isnt stressing, you guys might find yourselves with some good inexpensive meat sources that she hasnt felt stressed into eating.

i wouldnt sweat it too much. dogs are dogs are dogs and frankly, im convinced they could live off of love and sunshine alone. they seem to be able to eat most anythign and still thrive. much like children... speaking of which... Jeffrey gets plenty of love, as much sunshine as we can find and lo!! he grew out of his 18mo old clothes right after eating a purple plastic bead.

-ashley
Ya, right now I'm thinking that I'll do Innova and supplement with Tripett and some raw. I have no idea what a bag of Innova costs though... It gives me some time to find some cheaper meat sources. I was even thinking of putting an ad up in the paper asking for someone to split a side of beef with me, and they can take the prime cuts, and I'll take the lesser cuts. Obviously they'd pay more, and I'd pay less. I'd assume there would be people out there who would like that deal.
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  #105  
Old February 25th, 2008, 10:20 PM
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Innova EVO costs about $59 for the large bag which should easily last you a month. I feed my dogs Orijen which costs $56 for the large bag. I have a 92 lb. lab and a 58 lb. siberian husky and the bag lasts me almost 3 weeks.
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  #106  
Old February 25th, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Innova EVO costs about $59 for the large bag which should easily last you a month. I feed my dogs Orijen which costs $56 for the large bag. I have a 92 lb. lab and a 58 lb. siberian husky and the bag lasts me almost 3 weeks.
That's it? Is the large bag 40lbs?

I was feeding Myka Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult (for years n years). The bags were 40lbs or sometimes the BONUS bag of 44lbs for $45. So if it's the same weight for $59, then I'm stoked!!! I thought it was gonna be like $80...
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  #107  
Old February 25th, 2008, 10:46 PM
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EVO's large bag is 28.6lb. and Orijen's is 29.7lb. I'm pretty sure you feed less with them though. Also, they are much better than Nutro imo. Nutro was bought out by the Mars Corp. awhile ago. That's the same company that makes Pedigree and Ol Roy and alot of other grocery store brands so I would be watching very carefully for ingredient cheapening in Nutro products.
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  #108  
Old February 26th, 2008, 11:38 AM
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Myka-

Iím totally there with you with the cost of a raw diet and we have two mouths to feed! At first we were concerned about the price and still are, but we noticed such a huge difference, mainly in our older dog. Our younger dog started eating raw only after one week after we got him, but Oxford was eating Nutro, like Myka was, for about a year (Oxy will be 2 in May). Then we found out she had Hip Dysplasia and I was searching for anything that will make her healthy, not only in weight, but her overall well being. Thatís how I came across raw diet. It made total sense to me, so we tried it. I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her. Now, I donít know if it was the diet, the vitamins I started giving her, getting our other dog, Ten Bears, or a combination of all, but she is so much healthier. Her coat is shinier, she doesnít have as much of a hard time getting up from a seated position, her body is toned, she has great energy and so much more. To us, the extra money it costs is so worth it when we look at her and how much she has changed just from last August.

We've learned how to shop for them too. We always look in ads for sales on meat, when our friends are the store, we tell them to always check out the meat section for us to see if they have good deals and to tell us asap, we make sure to get those little store rewards cards. We've been able to handle it so far. But what the others are saying in this forum, there is nothing wrong with a high quality dog food either. I am certainly no expert, but could you mix some raw into the dog food as well so that they can get some of the benefits of a raw diet?

My experience with a raw diet has been great, but it is only my opinion. Good luck to you and whatever you chose will the right the choice for you and Myka.
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  #109  
Old February 26th, 2008, 12:24 PM
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but could you mix some raw into the dog food as well so that they can get some of the benefits of a raw diet?
Mixing raw in the same meal as kibble is not recommended. Kibble can take somewhere around 12 hours to digest while raw only takes about 4 hours.
Feeding both at the same time can cause digestive upset. One can feed kibble at breakfast and raw at dinnertime (allow at least 12 hours I'd say between the two), or feed raw one day and kibble the next.
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Old February 26th, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Makes total sense. Thanks! How can you do this if the dog is used to raw though? Won't it mess up their system, similiar to changing from one kibble to another? I know when you do that, you have to do it gradually.
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  #111  
Old February 26th, 2008, 01:11 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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yes, I also think it's not a good practice to mix foods this way, but then, there are those who believe that some raw is better than no raw.

The jury is still out on that one amongst many.

Mind you, there are some very high quality kibbles available (not that kibble will ever replace raw), now that are distinctly less harmful than the low end types.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 10:33 PM
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I bought a bag of the Innova for Myka today.

She's had MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD diarrhea for 48 hours now. She's been waking me up twice a night to go out, and I have to walk her a block to go to the bathroom!

She just barfed an hour ago as well. It had some of her breakfast in there (chicken gizzards) that she ate about 12 1/2 hours before barfing. How could that happen?

I'm starting to wonder what the heck is going on with her...I know it's very likely coincidence, but she's been sick this whole time she's been on raw!

I'm gonna start her on the Innova tomorrow morning (she's not getting her PM feeding with this diarrhea), and I will supplement with Tripett, and feed at least 3-4 raw feedings per week. We'll try that out.

I'm thinking if I feed her a total of two large cans of Tripett per week that would be a good amount for her...?
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  #113  
Old February 28th, 2008, 01:07 PM
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Sorry to hear about Myka. Throwing up never seems fun.

When I was first starting to research about raw diet, I remember coming across something that stated that when you first put your dog on raw, they will seem to get worse before they get better, simply becuase their bodies are trying to adjust to the new food, their stomach acids have to change, etc... I also remember reading that you will see them clean out their system by going through the weakest part of their body. I dont know how much of this is true for other people, but that is exactly what happened to Oxford which is why I wasnt so freaked out when it began to happen. She never had a problem eating the food, fortunately. In the beginning, she would have really bad bowel movements. Massive diarrhea the first few days and for like 2weeks, she was making snorting sounds, like she had a cold or reverse sneezing. In a bulldog, one of their weaker parts are their repiratory system. Everything that I read was happening. Then after a couple of weeks, she was back to normal. Regular poops, no more snorting and some other things.

Maybe Myka just has to go through a similiar process to clean her system out? Can anyone verify if what I read/experienced is even true?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:03 PM
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have you had any blood work done on her??

-ash
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  #115  
Old February 28th, 2008, 08:02 PM
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OxyMK: I have heard about that "cleansing" type thing as well. Although most people seem to think that it is not true and doesn't happen. I'm not sure what to believe, but it doesn't matter anyway since the raw diet is just too expensive for me. $150/month on dog food is just not in the budget. I thought it would be doable since most people told me to expect $1/lb for raw meats, and that my dog would eat 1.5 to 2 lbs per day. That is doable, but I'm averaging about $2.50-3 per lb. That is not doable.

I would find it odd if cleansing was the case as Myka didn't show any digestive upsets for the first 2 1/2 weeks. She seemed to take to it quite well, aside from becoming picky. Then getting ill. Now she's eating well again, but she's eating me out of house and home!!!

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have you had any blood work done on her??

-ash
Not yet. In order to get her teeth done she needs pre-anesthesia bloodwork. I plan to do the Geriatric blood planel for her which covers all the stuff needed for the pre-anesthetia bloodwork. So, I may as well get the Geriatric panel done just before she gets her teeth done so that I don't have to pay for bloodwork twice for no reason. My vet says not to do the Geriatric panel until she's been on a consistent diet for awhile so I can get some good "base" readings off the Geriatric panel to base annual Geriatric blood panels off of. The teeth cleaning is $450 ($100 for IV fluids during the anesthesia), plus $150 for the Geriatric panel, and that's a $600 bill provided there are no complications or extractions during the teeth cleaning.

SO...I'm saving up right now. These trips to the vet and the super expensive raw diet aren't helping out the teeth cleaning fund.
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Roxy - Feb 2005 - 75 lb American Staffordshire Bull Terrier (adopted Jul 2011)
Peewee - Jan 2006 - 8 lb Chihuahua (adopted May 2009)
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Myka - Nov 1998 to Jan 2010 - 85 lb American Pit Bull Terrier cross
Lacy - Sept 1992 to July 2003 - 18 lb Reg Shetland Sheepdog

Last edited by Myka; February 28th, 2008 at 08:09 PM.
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  #116  
Old February 28th, 2008, 08:48 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Prescott
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Quote:
have heard about that "cleansing"
I don't think there is any 'cleansing', or as some people put it 'detox', not in the sense of the word that we seem to understand it. With the switch from kibble to raw, there is only 'wellness'.

It's possible there could be sugar withdrawl in cases where dogs were fed with high sugar foods, but I doubt very much there is a detox period. "Detox", has never been substantiated at all. Personally I would not interpret the 'runs', as some sort of detox.

Yes, it's most likely food related, but it could as easily be from snurfing some some cheerio off the floor or munching on a piece of found wood somewhere. It could also be a reaction to any taken medication, or a symptom of illness.

You should not feel bad about not wanting to continue on a raw regime, you certainly don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If it's not for you.. .it's not for you, that's all.

If teeth cleaning is part of your objective, you can still feed chew bones regularly to help the teeth and gums.

Best
Merlin
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  #117  
Old February 28th, 2008, 09:03 PM
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Myka Myka is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Saskatoon, SK.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
You should not feel bad about not wanting to continue on a raw regime, you certainly don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If it's not for you.. .it's not for you, that's all.
The only thing that keeps me away from raw is the cost. If I can find meat for much cheaper from a regular source, I'll hop back on the bandwagon.
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Roxy - Feb 2005 - 75 lb American Staffordshire Bull Terrier (adopted Jul 2011)
Peewee - Jan 2006 - 8 lb Chihuahua (adopted May 2009)
--------------------
Myka - Nov 1998 to Jan 2010 - 85 lb American Pit Bull Terrier cross
Lacy - Sept 1992 to July 2003 - 18 lb Reg Shetland Sheepdog
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