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Old January 4th, 2008, 01:41 PM
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want4rain want4rain is offline
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Myths Of Raw Feeding

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

just to have somewhere to start- please refer to the actual page to see whats commonly said about "Myths" Of Raw Feeding.

Quote:
Myth 1 - Claimed similarities between modern wild canids and the domestic dog, and thus modern domestic dogs therefore have identical genetic development and nutritional needs as wild canids.
the sort of DNA angle they take in this article is a little misleading. when a (for lack of better word) BARFer compares a raw meaty bony diet to their domesticated dog, its not about who their ancestors were, its the way their bodies are put together. its about how their intestinal tract is just not long enough to derive what they need from many grains and veggies. both grains and veggies must be beaten or broken down with heat to process fully. the reasons humans started cooking foods to begin with was to break apart the cellulose for nutrition. dogs and cats need the same done with their grains and veggies/grasses/seeds. bottom line is, their teeth are for ripping, they need a sort of doggy/kitty floss to keep them clean and healthy. does that mean i feel they shouldnt have grains??? dogs? no way!! they are on the carnivore end of omnivore. their bodies can derive nutrition from plant matter but not as well as fresh raw meat and bones, which is why so much of their protein/phos/calcium SHOULD be from meat/bones. cats on the other hand should not eat plant material for nutrition. my cats are on a raw meat/bones/offal/egg diet. they DO however eat veggies. it is not considered part of their DIET, only their mental issues. there is no questioning that cats are obligate carnivores. this mean they only eat meat. their bodies are designed to only eat meat, crush small bones, NOT mash up the cellulose in plant matter, not even sort of. its not about who they are related to, its about what they are, how they are put together and what they do with their food. if you want more of my thoughts on this (which there are many) please ask, ill be happy to oblige.


Quote:
Myth 2 - Claims of increased disease levels and shortened life spans in pet dogs versus claimed lack of disease and increased life spans in wild ancestral canids like wolves and coyotes
lets address a few things pointed out in this section-
1)wild dogs kept in captivity live longer than their wild counterpart because they have regular food/do not have to compete for food, do not have to fend off other predators, they have nourishment and shelter and regular veterinary care. to claim its because of a commercial diet is just plain silly. anyone else notice that cats and dogs who live outside, free to roam but fed off of a back porch commercial food have the same lifespan or something comparable to any other wild animal?? uh-huh...

http://www.littlerockzoo.com/animals/wolf.htm
Quote:
n captivity at the Zoo the wolves are fed Science Diet dog food and either mice or rats every day. Bones are given to them once a week, along with a variety of fruits and vegetables as treats throughout the week.
i would really love to know what SD paid to have that this way.... why they are also given mice and rats (raw i wonder?!!) and what kind of bones... fruits and veggies.... and how that can possibly be healthy to supplement a SD dog food with (HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS!!) fresh food!!

please read through the entire article and use your head. it seems like there is as much reaching there as can be had.


this next one is my favorite!!
Quote:
Myth 3 - Claimed reduced levels of parasites.
WOO HOO!! now i have a neat little question for you.... are you sure, as a dog owner/human that you are free of parasites? before you claim your dog is free of parasites on his prepared dog food, please go to your doctor and ask for a full panel test run on just intestinal parasites. i *challenge* you to get up the guts to ask for it. believe it or not we ALL live with intestinal parasites. most of the ones you hear folks freak out about are living in your body right now. the great thing is!!!! you eat healthy, they live in your body but your body doesnt let things get out of hand. we have spent millions of years evolving to cope with intestinal parasites in our bodies. to feed a HEALTHY diet to your companion animal, THEIR bodies do what they have been conditioned to do for millions of years, coexist. even wonder who folks on really poor diets have huge bags under their eyes?? have sleeping issues?? its called WORMS HAVING A PARTY IN THEIR GUT!

lets move on now that ive grossed you out.


Quote:
Myth 4 - Claimed reduced levels of food intolerance, adverse reactions to foods, and or "allergies".
my dog loves corn. you love corn. we all eat corn. its healthy for our bodies. but... when you take parts of any food and make it over 30% of your diet, bad things happen. no one single food, let alone only a portion of a single food should ever make up that much of your diet. high fructose corn syrup... when found in the entire corn kernel, surrounded by the rest of its yummy goodness is quite harmless to eat, but when it is in every single food you eat as a super mega sweetener, its *not* healthy. anyways... on with my point! lets take corn gluten meal because it seems to be a really common corn byproduct that turns up in dog foods. here is a little corn education, dont forget to check out the link!!

http://goefuel.com/cornfacts/index.html
Quote:
* The endosperm is about 82 percent of the kernel's dry weight and is the source of energy and protein (starch) for the germinating seed. There are two types of endosperm, soft and hard. In the hard endosperm, starch is packed tightly together; in the soft endosperm, the starch is loose. When corn dries in the field before harvest, the moisture loss causes the soft endosperm to collapse and form a dent in the top of the kernel.
* The pericarp, also called the hull, is the outer covering of the kernel that protects it from deterioration. It is water- and water vapor-resistant and is undesirable to insects and micro-organisms.
* The germ is the only living part of the corn kernel. It contains the essential genetic information, enzymes, vitamins and minerals for the kernel to grow into a corn plant. About 25% of the germ is corn oil. Corn oil is the most valuable part of the corn kernel because of its amount of linoleic acid (polyunsaturated fat) and its bland taste.
* The tip cap is the only area of the kernel not covered by the pericarp. It was the attachment point of the kernel to the cob. It is the major entry path into the kernel.
after reading the link, did you know corn was so cool??? me either.

this is what corn gluten meal is-
http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=668
Quote:
Corn Gluten Meal: Corn gluten meal is the by-product after the manufacture of corn syrup or starch, and is the dried residue after the removal of the bran, germ, and starch.
basically, its all the good parts removed... and its a great deal of only one small part of the corn kernel. please apply that to all the rest of the 'gluten meals'.

my dog has an 'intolerance' to soemthing in even the best of dog foods. i feed him regularly the things contained in regular high quality dog foods. now why does he get itchy on high quality dog food?? i dont know, i suspect its the overly cooked chicken changes the protein into soemthing he has a hard time with, but thats my own uneducated guess. maybe its the over abundance of soemthing that causes issues?? maybe his essential fatty acid requirement is beign met.

Quote:
Barfers' typically eschew grains and vegetable matter as being unimportant and even inappropriate for domestic dogs and concentrate on raw meat as the primary nutrient source. Never mind that Epicyon became extinct following a very similar diet and Eucyon survived by being adaptable and eating anything and everything they could.
very very good point!! while cats are obligate carnivores, dogs are not. they really can get nutrition from just about anything (although easier from raw meaty bones and offal) which is why you shouldnt sweat feeding homemade anymore than you sweat your own diet (unless you have health/weigh issues and terrible eating habits). raw meaty bones are just a natural way of getting good healthy protein/phos/cal (among many many many other vital nutrients) to your dog while also cleaning their teeth, giving mental stimulation AND being super cool when you have company come over and they see your ultra dog ripping apart a chicken carcass.


Quote:
Myth 5 - Claims that feeding "raw meaty bones" are good for domestic dogs.
let me tell you soemthing, if there was any chance of finding a whole or part of a bone in my cat or dogs poop, id know it. i change the litter boxes and i pick up the poop, i crush kick and step on my dogs poop. i love my pets poop, it is the portal to their health. there has NEVER EVER been a piece or shard of bone in my pets poop. feeding your dog cooked bones WILL cause them harm. dogs and cats are no more or less likely to choke on a piece of kibble than they are on bone. feeding whole raw bones and meat make your animal slow down eating, process gastric juices for digestion and do not swell in the stomach!!! i can not stress that enough!! do you puree your food for your own safety?? what about your children?? that stops at a year or two right?? hopefully most of you have your kids on finger foods by 18 months!! i sure hope so!! so why woudl your pets be any different? why should their food be pureed, pasted and then dried up into perfectly sized choking hazards for many dogs??

one amazing benefit of feeding raw meaty bones is the teeth cleaning function. personally my cat went from being on antibiotics 2Xyearly due to gingivitis to perfectly healthy teeth on a raw meat and bones. the issues related to raw hides, nylabones and so on are astounding!! please please research the physical health issues associated with dental chew toys.


Quote:
Myth 6 - Claimed increased value of uncooked foods versus cooked foods and subsequent loss of trace micro-nutrients by the cooking process.
i want to know who thinks im so stupid that i couldnt give my dog a better fresh food diet than a wild dog who (as was mentioned above in the article) scrounges up food? that im too stupid to feed my dog fresh food but im allowed to feed my children a fresh food diet?? one would think the impact of screwing up my childrens diet woudl be more motivation to create a perfectly balanced meal than dogs. you know what i say??? treat the dog as well as i treat my children. cheerios are really healthy!!! AND they have the added bonus of having 13 essential vitamins and minerals (is it 13?? i cant remember) and if dogs are able to get good things from kibble, cheerios should do just as well. if you are worried abotu forgetting somethign, supplement with (a high quality) kibble like the guys at the zoos do.

Quote:
Barfers' typically concentrate on ingredients and ignore nutrients. This is much akin to not being able to "see the forest because of the trees".
pretty general statement that has no hard data backing it up. no different than saying those for a commercially prepared balanced perfect diet is all paid for by Hill's, 'cept they probably are. any BARFer will tell you, variety is the key, the rest comes out in the wash.

Quote:
There is no "traffic cop" in the stomach that refuses entry for some nutrient derived from grain and permits the passage of the same nutrient derived from a meat source.
well actually there is. the traffic cop is the intestinal tract where food is absorbed. bioavailability isnt about the bodys interpretation of the molecule, its how it GETS to that molecule. the difference between just plain boxes and those plastic shells they put on toys. many grains, seeds and such evolved to be eaten and crapped out whole in a bunch of fertilizer so it can grow into a new plant. true omnivores have neat little flat teeth (go look at your cats and dogs mouth!!) to crush up the cellulose and seed shells to get to the yummy goodness on the inside. did you go look? cats and dogs do not have those teeth. thats why when BARFers feed oatmeal its rolled and cooked, flax is ground up as well as corn and so on. they can get nutrition from it if its smashed first since they cant smash it themselves first. quite healthy!!!

Quote:
True digestibility and net protein utilization also showed a significant improvement in the case of cooked kidney beans.32
good thing most of Misters nutrition isnt locked up in some uncooked kidney bean. i dont know a single BARFer who feeds non meat products uncooked unless its fruit and thats just because a whole apple sliced is way more fun than a soggy cooked one. just kidding. fruits typically contain far too much sugar to be considered a main staple in anyones diet unless they are very high energy and even then it has a place and a portion.

to close this little section, the last paragraph really bothers me. to say that we are capable of feeding ourselves but not our dogs is quite insulting to me. again, i can not stress this enough, variety variety!! its not about WHAT you feed but in what portions!!! if your dog is getting fat, dont magically suck the fat out of a whole raw chicken silly!! you reduce the amount of chicken and grains/carbs fed because that is the main source of fat. if your dog is super hyper active after eating, cut back on fruits and grains/carbs. if you are going to go on a really long difficult hike, feed grains/carbs before leaving and also carry a nice wet bowl of oatmeal or soemthign for water intake and a little boost of energy to get home.


Quote:
Human Health Concerns
my last little blurb on this subject is this- clean up after yourself. vinegar is a wonderful disinfectant. you do more damage to your body by denying it the opportunity to build up resistants to diseases than by using antibacterial soap.

if you are so immunocompromised, please do not feed a raw meat diet, wash your veggies carefully and please please take care of your health. same goes for your pets. a raw meat homemade diet is not for all creatures.

for the rest of you out there who are NOT so immunocompromised, please read up on the hygiene hypothesis, stop spraying antibacterial sprays... you are going to give yourself cancer. smoking is bad but huffing lysol/windex/pledge is ok? use your head folks. its what its there for.



to say, this is MY opinion brought on my good common sense and loads of research. this isnt meant to be an end all beat all guide to raw feeding or homemade pet foods. this is just my thoughts and opinion that isnt typically mentioned on other raw feeding sites.



a neat article-

comparison of animal digestive tracts


-ashley
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Last edited by want4rain; January 4th, 2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old January 5th, 2008, 09:20 AM
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*clears throat* anyone have any comments?? discrepancies? additions? 'youre just plain crazy lady' or 'kick ass', either would be ok!!

any thoughts??

-ash
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Old January 8th, 2008, 07:20 AM
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I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

You have said, what I have been saying for the last 15 years to my vet about my Snowball eating raw (yes even hamburger) meat! He loved it, he got it and as far as I am concerned, if it is good enough for my child, it is good enough for my cat!!! If we had meat for supper, he had meat for supper. He was never sick, he only needed dental work at 11 years old, and he was never overweight.

You need to go on the road lady and give your speech!!!!
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Old January 8th, 2008, 07:24 AM
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Sorry, forgot to add, why is OK to feed our pets overprocessed food, but is not recommended for humans. Why not feed alpaghetti every day to your child and add a vitamin pill to their food???? It would be much easier.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 07:52 AM
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I am just going through the first link you had and half way down they mention Vitamin C. It is my understanding that cats unlike humans, not sure about dogs, produce their own Vit C and do not require it as daily vitamin. So why is it mentioned in this article. If dogs do require this vitamin, please ignore this comment.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 12:52 PM
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perhaps it was just a poor example.

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php

thank you so much for the thumbs up, i was getting really worried folks hated it and just didnt want to mention it. at least ONE person (besides my husband) enjoyed reading it!! i have a little more to say but havent gotten the thoughts coherent yet!!

-ashley
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Old January 8th, 2008, 12:53 PM
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BTW taurine would have been a better example. it is destroyed by heat and needs to be added back to kibble where as it is found in abundance in raw muscle meat.

-ash
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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:53 AM
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Heat sensitivity to Taurine

Although Taurine is heat sensitive, this occurs after 150 degrees C and most of the "holistic" companies cook lower than these temperatures.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Jim Hall Jim Hall is offline
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your post and reponse definitly kicks ass ty very much for a well done presis on raw
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Old January 19th, 2008, 07:14 AM
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*standing Ovation*

Love the article and thankyou for posting it!!!

It truely was a great read and will be something wonderful to link back to for those raw debates!!!!
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Old January 19th, 2008, 11:32 AM
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awww warm fuzzies.

-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 03:24 AM
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Thumbs up

GREAT post!!

I've been posting on a Dog Cancer forum where I've been arguing with a vet who says there are heinous pathogens that can kill dogs in raw meat coming from slaughter houses. What say ye about that myth?

Last edited by tiOurs; February 28th, 2008 at 03:30 AM. Reason: wanted to
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Old February 28th, 2008, 09:12 AM
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http://raingoddess.com/vetmed/rawfood.html



-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:16 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Am I missing the jist of this conversation Ashley.
Are you anti raw or pro raw? I'm not sure

??????

The article you are referring to was written in 2003. This is 2008. That article has absolutely no merit whatsoever. Since the writing of this piece, all of the myths and concerns expressed have been address and quelled, (most of them scientifically).

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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:18 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiOurs View Post
GREAT post!!

I've been posting on a Dog Cancer forum where I've been arguing with a vet who says there are heinous pathogens that can kill dogs in raw meat coming from slaughter houses. What say ye about that myth?
Please read this:
But what about germs?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 08:27 PM
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the date of the paper doesnt change the science behind it. the site was basically saying that everything from kibble, pigs ears (and other treats) to raw meat have risks. the misconception that kibble and treats have no harmful pathogens is just silly. EVERYTHING has bacteria on it. its the nature of life. while it was a site i pulled up on a quick google search, i find my beliefs fall in line with it. (perhaps read it more carefully??? )

-ashley

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
Am I missing the jist of this conversation Ashley.
Are you anti raw or pro raw? I'm not sure

??????

The article you are referring to was written in 2003. This is 2008. That article has absolutely no merit whatsoever. Since the writing of this piece, all of the myths and concerns expressed have been address and quelled, (most of them scientifically).

Merlin
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Old February 28th, 2008, 08:40 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
(perhaps read it more carefully?
I've read it often for many years.
It doesn't answer my question though. Are you pro raw or against raw?
MM
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