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Old August 29th, 2007, 05:38 PM
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Regular users of Glucosamine+Chondroitin+MSM

It makes Ceili's poop soft. Nothing terribly concerning but well... we on the picker-upper end of the poop patrol prefer a good, firm poop frankly!

We've only ever tried one brand (Jamieson's) ~ pill form. I've got some orange-flavoured liquid by Weber which neither she nor Declan will touch unless it's in flavoured yoghurt or () icecream (yes, I know those are both not particularly healthy).

I'm wondering if regular users have noticed any differences between brands in the poop department.
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Old August 29th, 2007, 05:46 PM
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Chase is on Glucosamine/Chondroitin (no MSM) and I usually buy Webber Naturals. I've also had Jamiesons and Wellquest (Pharmasave brand). He's never had a problem with any of the brands.
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Old August 29th, 2007, 09:10 PM
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We use Cosequin DS. Expensive as all get-out, but it's made to human pharmaceutical standards and comes as a powder in a capsule--which means you can either "pill" them with the capsule, or open the capsule and sprinkle the powder over the food. We've had excellent luck with it--on the initial doses the dogs sometimes experience a little gas, but it passes (no pun intended ) quickly. No MSM in it is as far as I know...
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Old August 29th, 2007, 09:34 PM
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For Ceili in particular I like the additional anti-inflammatory of the MSM so that would knock Cosequin out of the running. The nasty-tasting liquid is Webber (not Weber <- them's the Masters of BBQ people !). Maybe when we run out of our 1000 pills we'll look for the Webber's pill form. Knowing Ceili it's just her "nature" to be a pain in the poop department
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Old August 29th, 2007, 09:35 PM
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foster & smith

I've been using foster & smith joint care 2 advanced (glucosamine, chondroitin, & msm) for approx. the past two years on my 9 year old GSD. She has some arthritis from a an acl tear (she had tplo surgery). She's been doing great.....I've had her on it since the surgery, so it's hard to say what kind of a difference it has made (as I don't have much of a reference). Our vet emphasized having the msm in there for the arthritis and I couldn't find any other ones that included all three ingredients. Her stool has been fine (solid)...never noticed any difference.

I get the tablet form. They are liver flavored I think and she just eats them up with the rest of her meal.

My only concern with this brand is that one of the ingredients is dried brewer's yeast. From the research I did on dog food ingredients that led me to switch foods, I didn't think that was something you wanted in food... am I correct....and if so, should I avoid it in the supplements as well?
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Old August 29th, 2007, 09:48 PM
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There is some thought that Brewer's Yeast can lead to bloat. The amount that will be in your tablet is likely to be so small you needn't be overly concerned. Being rich in the B vitamins there's also alot of positives about Brewer's Yeast. I've never seen Foster and Smith ~ is that something you buy in a pet store? Drug store? Health Food store ? On-Line ?
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Old August 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM
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foster & smith

Thnx for the info on brewer's yeast. I think I might have been confusing it with brewer's rice too (I'm still very new to this stuff

Foster & Smith is primarily on-line or catalog order I think. I friend gave me a catalog a while back and I've had good luck with them. Here's their address:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/
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Old August 29th, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Mx3, the last time I was at the natural health food store buying supplements for our dogs, I inquired about joint/arthritis support for myself. The woman I always speak with strongly recommended this brand: http://www.naturalfactors.com/search...ode=cat&cat=13

We use other supplements from the same company, and although it's more expensive than others, we're satisfied with the results thus far.
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Old August 29th, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Yeah, MMM--Foster & Smith--based right here in good ol' WI! We've had pretty good luck with a lot of the stuff we've ordered from them, too. They carry a lot of pet products.
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Old August 29th, 2007, 10:04 PM
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Thanks Mika and LP ~ I'll look at them both !
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Old August 29th, 2007, 10:19 PM
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The Natural factors doesn't seem to have all three ingredients in one products ~ but I know I've seen the product the drug store as well as at my Health Food store. The Foster's & Smith have some pretty bang-up products! I'll have to do the math to see how much all of that means in Cdn dollars with S&H and duty and Ontario taxes. ...but other than that ~ looks good!
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  #12  
Old August 30th, 2007, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Natural Factors’ MSM Joint superior remedy for painful joints and connective tissue contains a combination of MSM (Methyl-sulfonyl-methane), Glucosamine Sulfate and Chondroitin Sulfate.

Looks like it has all 3 to me.
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Old August 30th, 2007, 07:16 AM
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In case anyone's interested, Nutramax, the makers of Cosequin, have introduced a glucosamine/chondroitin/ASU product with MSN: http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products...quin/index.asp
Probably pretty pricey, although supposedly because these are considered pharmaceutical products, they're held to a higher standard than the "natural" supplements from health food stores.

My cat has been on Cosequin since last December and his arthritis has definitely improved (no more limping). But I'm sure it's a lot cheaper with his one-pill-a-day than it would be to give this stuff to a large dog.
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Old August 30th, 2007, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
In case anyone's interested, Nutramax, the makers of Cosequin, have introduced a glucosamine/chondroitin/ASU product with MSN: http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products...quin/index.asp
Probably pretty pricey, although supposedly because these are considered pharmaceutical products, they're held to a higher standard than the "natural" supplements from health food stores.

My cat has been on Cosequin since last December and his arthritis has definitely improved (no more limping). But I'm sure it's a lot cheaper with his one-pill-a-day than it would be to give this stuff to a large dog.
Most reputable natural supplement manufacturing companys do produce "pharmaceutical grade" products and are certified GMP facilities. You would find NO difference in the manufacturing plants of a drug company and them. The plant for Natural Factors (the MSM Joint Formula mentioned above) doesn't get more high tech and would put many pharmaceutical plants to shame.

It never ceases to amaze me the hits the natural supplement industry takes on here because people are simply uninformed and making "assumptions."
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Old August 30th, 2007, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post


Looks like it has all 3 to me.
Sorry, I should have been more clear in my post I did see that one Dracko but the order of importance for me starts with the Glucosamine not the MSM. But thanks for pointing that out ~ now that I think of it, the MSM Joint formula may help MY cranky, old, arthritic knees.
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Old August 30th, 2007, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mummummum View Post
... now that I think of it, the MSM Joint formula may help MY cranky, old, arthritic knees.
Heehee, I can relate. I'll be picking some up for myself as well, I'll let you know if it works.

It contains 300mg Glucosamine Sulfate (sodium free), 300mg MSM, and 240mg Chondroitin Sulfate.
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  #17  
Old August 30th, 2007, 12:36 PM
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Oh, now that's interesting I assumed it was weighted in favour of the MSM ~ was the mg %'s on the website ???
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Old August 30th, 2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
It never ceases to amaze me the hits the natural supplement industry takes on here because people are simply uninformed and making "assumptions."
Woa, sorry if I touched a nerve there. Not making assumptions, and I have nothing personal against natural supplements, use many of them myself with no problem. But surely you know that there are minimal regulations in this industry, which means that standards will vary. Of course there are reputable companies making quality products. There are also some not-so-reputable companies. To put blind faith in everything sold on the shelves of your local health food store may not be a good idea (and yes, I think the same applies to Big Pharmacy as well. Basically - research everything!).

Quote:
A nutritional supplement is only as good as the authenticity, potency, and purity of the starting raw materials. There is enormous variability in the base quality of these ingredients depending on how they were grown, harvested and shipped. Nutritional supplement suppliers each have their own standards, and there are no enforced quality standards. Where some demand high quality and ensure this through rigorous testing, others have no such commitment.
http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newar...2007pg34.shtml

Quote:
Dietary supplement makers do not have to provide the FDA with evidence that dietary supplements are effective or safe. Once a dietary supplement is marketed, the FDA has to prove that the product is not safe to restrict its use or remove it from the market. The quality control of dietary supplements depends on the manufacturer, supplier, and production process.4

A Whole Batch of Problems

“There are lots of problems with dietary supplements. There are no regulations that dictate appropriate serving recommendations. There is no organized collection of adverse events so that safety problems can be spotted early,” says Cooperman. “The area that we focus most on is product quality. We are seeing one fourth of the products that we select for testing to have a quality problem. We find products with none or little of their claimed ingredients, products contaminated with lead or pesticides, [and] tablets that won’t break apart to release their ingredients. Many products don’t even specify a dose that is known to work.” Cooperman gives an example of zinc lozenges for colds. Three fourths of the products that ConsumerLab.com tested did not have or suggest the amount of zinc that has been shown to be effective.
http://www.consumerlab.com/index.asp
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Old August 30th, 2007, 02:53 PM
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You are, of course, referring to the US. Here in Canada we now have the new NHP (Natural Health Product) regulations that are doing away with the older DIN (Drug Identification Numbers) supplements used to have to have. The government is way, way, way behind in their approval of these numbers, which is why you still see some crap and outrageous claims by some companies.

Over the next while you will see those products disappear, though. EVERY product will have to prove what is on the label is what is in the bottle and EVERY claim will have to be backed up. We don't look for FDA approval in Canada but that from Health Canada.

All reputable supplement manufacturers will be cGMP certified. All you have to do to find out if they are is go on their website or call them. As a matter of fact, manufacturers in the industry such as Flora and Natural Factors have gone WAY beyond the GMPc recommendations.

Quote:
GMP refers to the Good Manufacturing Practice Regulations promulgated by the US Food and Drug Administration under the authority of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (See Chapter IV for food, and Chapter V, Subchapters A, B, C, D, and E for drugs and devices.) These regulations, which have the force of law, require that manufacturers, processors, and packagers of drugs, medical devices, some food, and blood take proactive steps to ensure that their products are safe, pure, and effective. GMP regulations require a quality approach to manufacturing, enabling companies to minimize or eliminate instances of contamination, mixups, and errors. This in turn, protects the consumer from purchasing a product which is not effective or even dangerous. Failure of firms to comply with GMP regulations can result in very serious consequences including recall, seizure, fines, and jail time.

GMP regulations address issues including recordkeeping, personnel qualifications, sanitation, cleanliness, equipment verification, process validation, and complaint handling. Most GMP requirements are very general and open-ended, allowing each manufacturer to decide individually how to best implement the necessary controls. This provides much flexibility, but also requires that the manufacturer interpret the requirements in a manner which makes sense for each individual business.

GMP is also sometimes referred to as "cGMP". The "c" stands for "current," reminding manufacturers that they must employ technologies and systems which are up-to-date in order to comply with the regulation. Systems and equipment used to prevent contamination, mixups, and errors, which may have been "top-of-the-line" 20 years ago, may be less than adequate by today's standards.
To paint the industry as a whole as not up to pharmaceutical standards is incorrect. Would be no different than saying ALL drugs should be pulled cuz Vioxx turned out to have hidden dangers. (Not so hidden considering Merck Frosst knew about it but didn't report it as the side-effect occured after the time frame their study was being reported for.)

Yes, there is crap out there in the industry. A person just has to recognize if a company is a Research based or Marketing based company to know which side a product most likely belongs on.
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Dracko (GSD) male - 2000 - 31/02/2011 RIP my boy
Mochie (Balinese X/feline) female - 1994 - 07/01/2010 RIP my sweetie
Ginkgo (Siamese X/feline) female - 6 years
Smitty (long-haired white/feline) male - 5 years
Teiya (Ragdoll x/feline) female - 3 years
Kinsey (Ragdoll x/feline) female - 3 years

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  #20  
Old August 30th, 2007, 04:38 PM
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Thanks for the info. It's good to know that times are a changin'.

Back to mummummum's question about the soft poop, I did find this tidbit:

Quote:
Safety Considerations
No study so far has found any serious side effects from either glucosamine or chondroitin. The most common side effects are increased intestinal gas and softened stools. However, animal research has raised the possibility that glucosamine may worsen insulin resistance, a major cause of diabetes. So far, studies in humans have not substantiated that risk. Nevertheless, people with diabetes should monitor their blood-sugar level particularly carefully when using that supplement. There have been no reports of allergic reactions to glucosamine. But since it's made from shellfish shells, people who are allergic to seafood should use it cautiously, watching for reactions, or avoid it entirely. As for chondroitin, it can cause bleeding in people who have a bleeding disorder or take a blood-thinning drug.
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Old August 30th, 2007, 05:35 PM
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I was intrigued by this product (Dasuquin) http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products...quin/index.asp as it is new to me as is it's use of Avocado/ Soybean Unsaponifieds (ASU). So I did a little research on ASU and thought I would share the sites I found most informative. Most are human studies but there are a few animal one's in there as well. All studies are done on patients with osteoarthritis (knee or hip or knee and hip).

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs.../ajvr.68.6.598

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030115/339.html

http://ww2.arthritis.org/research/Bu...12/avocado.asp

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab002947.html


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...RVAbstractPlus

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/...1_181/_article

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band122/b122-3.html

Where to get just ASU:
"One of the more established brands in North America is called Avosoy. It's marketed and distributed by Jason Theodosakis, MD, the author of The Arthritis Cure (St. Martin's Griffin, 2004). The company web site claims that the products are tested by a third-party lab. Customers can enter their product number to see the lab results for their product."
from: http://altmedicine.about.com/od/drca...adosoybean.htm


While it seems much more clinical study of the long-term effects both on symptoms and disease need to be done ~ it looks very interesting.
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