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  #31  
Old June 26th, 2006, 10:48 AM
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Kaytris, you are right. There are many reputable breeders who will refund the purchase price of your puppy and/or will pay for the treatments that are required and you are not expected to return your puppy. I would hope that most people would not want to return their dog, but from what I've seen, many puppy are willing to give up their dog/puppy for a lot less. Unfortunately, there are people out there who would return the puppy for another one.
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  #32  
Old June 26th, 2006, 12:40 PM
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granted, it's a trust issue, but nonetheless you cannot "force" a buyer to sterilize their pet, i mean who has time for policing?
Something I've always wondered . . . why don't the breeders just have the puppies spayed/neutered themselves and add the additional cost into the price of the puppy? Puppies can be neutered or spayed quite early and recover easily from surgery. I've heard rumors that this will sometimes make a dog more "leggy" and tall than it would otherwise be, but why would the new owner mind since they aren't going to be showing the puppy anyway?
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  #33  
Old June 26th, 2006, 11:29 PM
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The people I know who bought "new" dogs did have a follow up. It's in the breeder's best interest after making new owners sign a contract saying they'll pay some enormous sum of money if they don't get the dog neutered by a certain date. Even breeders in it just for the money will make sure if it means an extra grand or two in their pockets.
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  #34  
Old June 27th, 2006, 11:43 AM
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When I got my dogs from my breeder,my contract was a Neuter contract.If I didn't,then I would have been taken to court and sued for $5000.This was stated in the contract.Do I think it was a cash grab for her?No,I think it was her being the reputable breeder that she was and didn't want to see me being a BYB and making money.Which I think is a great idea.I know quite a few breeders who do this.My vet sent her the papers proving that they were done.....


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Reputable breeders sell their puppies on nonbreeding contracts with a clause that states that the only way that can be lifted is when the dog attains his/her championship title and then only with the breeders' permission is the dog allowed for breeding. Many times, even if you intend on showing your dog, the breeder puts the nonbreeding clause in, not always does it mean that you must spay/neuter.
You are soooo right Beaglemom.And I know quite a few people who's dogs do reach CH and they won't breed.They actually get them fixed.Only reason being is that they don't want to be breeders.They know that it takes alot of time and money to become one.

Quote:
what I wanted to emphasize was that a good breeder doesn't require the return of the puppy.
A reputable breeder would not hesitate to take back a pup.They actually will specify that for any reason you can't keep the pup,return it.
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  #35  
Old June 27th, 2006, 03:40 PM
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I think what she meant wasn't that the breeder will refuse to take back the puppy, but that the breeder won't REQUIRE the owner to give up the puppy, if the owner doesn't want to, in order for the owner to get a refund for a genetic defect that was guaranteed against, for example. A reputable breeder doesn't treat a dog like a purse. "Oh, that one's defective, let me give you another . . . *tosses the original purse into the trash*"
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  #36  
Old August 31st, 2006, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LM1313
Something I've always wondered . . . why don't the breeders just have the puppies spayed/neutered themselves and add the additional cost into the price of the puppy? Puppies can be neutered or spayed quite early and recover easily from surgery. I've heard rumors that this will sometimes make a dog more "leggy" and tall than it would otherwise be, but why would the new owner mind since they aren't going to be showing the puppy anyway?
I can answer this (having recently gotten a new puppy.) I wouldn't buy an altered 4 month old puppy is the answer. The puppy's (and kitten's, too) sexual organs are important for providing the hormones to help the animal mature, fill out, and become an adult dog. Dogs that are spayed or neutered too young are more rounded and more puppy-like.
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  #37  
Old August 31st, 2006, 02:28 PM
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It's actually the other way around. The growth plates stay open longer when a dog is neutered before puberty, so the dog can get slightly taller and lankier than when they're done at 6 months or more. But the differences are so slight, I doubt anybody would be able to tell.

Some people say that Boo has the typical body of a dog neutered earlier and would have been stalkier had I done him later, but he was done later. I only got him at around 6 months old and we had to wait until his kennel cough was gone and the dispute with the SPCA over the neutering was over too.
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  #38  
Old September 4th, 2006, 10:36 AM
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I agree with most of what has been posted. I quibble with a few things.

The thing about requiring titles on all breeding stock isn't so much what it says about the dog, it is what it says about the owner. Breeders who title their breeding stock (in something, whether it is obedience, field, conformation, agility or tracking or whatever) have demonstrated a willingness to subject their dogs and their breeding program and the results to outside scrutiny. They aren't just telling puppy buyers "I know what is best," they are proving that their dogs can do something other than produce puppies and, more than that, they are demonstrating their willingness to do stuff with their dogs.

I disagree that responsible breeders don't (ever) advertise in the newspaper or on the internet. As long as responsible breeders screen prospective puppy buyers adequately, it doesn't matter where the buyers come from. I also disagree with the implication that the ONLY responsible puppy buyers are people who want to wait a year or more (responsible breeders don't breed very often, after all) on a waiting list. It can happen that way, but a responsible breeder and a responsible puppy buyer can come together at any time during the process, and there is nothing wrong with that. While good breeders typically have people interested in the litter before it is whelped, many of these highly selective puppy buyers are also highly selective about what they get--they likely want a particular gender, maybe show quality, very likely particular temperament, and sometimes even a particular color or markings. If a breeder has a bunch of puppy buyers lined up for pushy, bold male show quality puppies, and she has a litter of quiet, easygoing, female, pet quality puppies, that doesn't necessarily mean she did anything wrong.

Health screens, of course, are non-negotiable. Check that OFA website for the names of the sire and dam and relatives before you ever even go look at a litter!
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  #39  
Old February 13th, 2007, 12:03 PM
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As a breeder, I have a 2 page contract for buyers to sign when they buy a puppy from me. The litter I have now, I had a waiting list of 12 people before it was born. Once the litter was born, most on my list had either changed their minds, were now unable to get one (moving, baby, etc) or had found a puppy elsewhere since many have their names on several lists. I think only 1 of the original people will be taking a puppy home, several of the potential buyers never even got back to me after telling them the puppies were born. Of the 7 we have, we are keeping 1 and have sold 5, they are 4 weeks old. I reluctantly had to advertise my first litter in the paper only because I had not been breeding long enough to establish a reputation and get returning buyers, which is where many of the people on the list come from. They were a different breed than the puppies we have now. A list really depends on how long the breeder has been breeding, the longer they have been in the "business" the more people know them. And remember, all breeders, even the best, started with a first litter. The length of time that someone has been breeding does not make them a not-worthwhile breeder. Some who have been breeding for only a few years could be producing better dogs than those who have been doing it for a long time.

My contract states that if a dog developes a genetic problem within 3 years we give money back, no dog return, I could not ask people to give up a dog that they have become attached to. They are sold on non-breeding contracts that state the dog must attain a CKC or AKC title and have all health checks done. I do not "demand" the dog be fixed, I can not police that, but I do encourage, at 6 months for a female, 1 year for a male. I had never heard of saying you will sue someone for not getting the dog fixed, I dont think too many breeders have that in their contracts, but it may not be a bad idea. However, when we got our girl we did not intend to breed her, but by the time she was 1 she had turned out to be such a great dog we waited, and now she is titled, has health checks and has a litter of wonderful puppies.

I agree with Cygnet about the title saying more about the breeder than the dog, it means they are willing to put the time and money into competing, and want to make sure that the dogs they own stand up to the standard (showing or working). Competing is not cheap, to get my one girl titled for tracking I first took her to class (10 sessions at $150) Then a test at $75. She did not pass so I forked out another $150 for a second set of classes and another test at $75. She passed. Health checks are not cheap either, and to get a show title it takes at least 3 shows at $25 each, plus the cost of travel and a handler (starting at $100 a show) if you do not want to do it yourself. Most dogs require attending several shows to get their Championship, depending on how common the breed is, sometimes over the course of a year or two. The breeds that I have rarely have more than 3 or 4 dogs at a show, and the one breed is almost always a no-show. That is why good breeders take pride in their puppies.

Those are just a few more points to consider, coming from someone who is new to this wonderful world of breeding. All of our puppy buyers are much older than my husband and I, but that does not mean that we dont know what we are doing.

Final words; research and interview, both the breed of choice and the breeder, ask for references, they should be happy to give you a few.
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  #40  
Old February 13th, 2007, 12:12 PM
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And remember, all breeders, even the best, started with a first litter.
True, but a good breeder would be followed by a mentor breeder (the breeder who bred the dogs the new breeder is using), and the new breeder wouldn't be starting from scratch with no reputation, as the line of dogs would have a reputation of its own.

Even the "professional" breeders (the ones who do breed for money) have it in their contracts that there is a large sum of money as a sort of fine if the new owner of the dog isn't neutered by a certain date. You really should consider it so your dogs don't end up intact and end up in puppymills or in the hands of unethical breeders.

You can follow up too, you know? Ask for proof of neutering and just get updates on how the dog is doing. How will you know if the dog has a genetic disorder that you should breed out if you don't follow up with the dogs after they leave?
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  #41  
Old February 13th, 2007, 02:11 PM
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I believe thatanyone that wishes to breed must:

1) Become educated
2) BE RESPONSIBLE
3) RESPECT ALL AND AND EVERYONE! DOGS AND POTENTIAL PURCHASERS
4) BE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE, RATHER THAN MAKE UP A WHOLE LOAD OF LIES!

Why do I bring this up? Well just this year I meet a individual, this person wanted too learn wanted to get somewhere in breeding! I beleived in the individual. Gave the person the right directions, then find out latter that the individual took my advise, too throw it too the wind.

Picking up mixed breed dogs, making claim that they are pure! Is just out landish. Breeding dogs each and every heat is just insane! The reason to breed is to IMPROVE not too lie and or get rich off of them! Dogs are to be loved nothing less!!!! In the last 35 years I have seen and heard it all! It is up too the pro's too take the time to establish and educate.

When you do just be so aware on who you are dealing with! You may get a ruid awakening in the long run.
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  #42  
Old February 14th, 2007, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin View Post
True, but a good breeder would be followed by a mentor breeder (the breeder who bred the dogs the new breeder is using), and the new breeder wouldn't be starting from scratch with no reputation, as the line of dogs would have a reputation of its own.

Even the "professional" breeders (the ones who do breed for money) have it in their contracts that there is a large sum of money as a sort of fine if the new owner of the dog isn't neutered by a certain date. You really should consider it so your dogs don't end up intact and end up in puppymills or in the hands of unethical breeders.
You are sooo right Prin.

Your breeder is always your mentor.He/she is the one to be asking questions about showing,health/genetic testing,temperment testing and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_have_too_many
I do not "demand" the dog be fixed, I can not police that, I had never heard of saying you will sue someone for not getting the dog fixed, I dont think too many breeders have that in their contracts
Yes you can Police it.You have a s/n contract.MANY breeders have this.And yes,they have it in their contract that they will sue you.As I have stated before,I was on a neuter contract.If I did not have my boys done at 6 months,she had the right to take me to court and sue me for $5000.That was for each of my dogs.

Think about what Prin said.Would you want someone you sold your pups to become BYB"s?Would you want the females bred in their first heat?Would you want them to pass on a health/genetic issue to their pups?Every responsible breeder I know has a s/n contract.For them,this is a must.

Do you tell the new owners to have their dogs health/genetic tested at the ages it supposed to be done?

In 23 years of raising 3 GSD's from my breeder,we kept in contact the whole time up untill her death in 2006.:sad:
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  #43  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:15 AM
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I've bought 2 dogs from breeders over the years, all with spay/neuter clauses, but none with the threat of suing if the spay/neuter isn't done.

It can be very difficult to find a breeder sometimes, depending on the breed, it can take months to finally find a puppy and then to add the possiblility of being sued if you don't get the dog spayed or neutered by 6 months of age, you'll just be driving some people to backyard breeders and pet stores. I wouldn't sign such a contract, not because I won't get a dog spayed or neutered. I always do, I just prefer to get male dogs done closer to their first birthday. I've never had a problem with getting a puppy from a breeder once I've found one, although I have found some breeders I wouldn't even consider getting a puppy from. Not everyone who is trying to get a puppy is an irresponsible idiot, so if you treat people as such and make getting a puppy as difficult as you can, then they will find alternate resources and that makes the breeders part of the problem as well in my opinion.

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  #44  
Old March 12th, 2007, 11:03 PM
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strip mall puppy mill?

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Originally Posted by clm View Post
It can be very difficult to find a breeder sometimes, depending on the breed, it can take months to finally find a puppy and then to add the possiblility of being sued if you don't get the dog spayed or neutered by 6 months of age, you'll just be driving some people to backyard breeders and pet stores. clm
My first post on this Forum was gonna be about "getting my cat to behave when I brush her", but something came up...


There is possibly something quite disturbing going on in this area of the Foothills and it is just beginning to break.
Has anyone ever heard of such a thing as a strip mall puppymill?
I thought all the puppymills were way out in the boonies and took months and months to get any attention to bust them. Our town is going to closly follow this story. Maybe , if you happen to know anyone who may have been involved somehow with this operation or any of the "mills" mentioned in the victims letter, please feel free to help out.
I hope posting this "other" forum address isn't breaking any rules here. I couldn't find one if there is. I just thought this was so important to get out there to the right community.
Thanks ,
cali

Last edited by White Wolf; March 13th, 2007 at 02:43 AM. Reason: link removed for slander
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  #45  
Old March 14th, 2007, 05:29 PM
calicogal calicogal is offline
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sorry all

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Originally Posted by calicogal View Post
My first post on this Forum was gonna be about "getting my cat to behave when I brush her", but something came up...


There is possibly something quite disturbing going on in this area of the Foothills and it is just beginning to break.
Has anyone ever heard of such a thing as a strip mall puppymill?
I thought all the puppymills were way out in the boonies and took months and months to get any attention to bust them. Our town is going to closly follow this story. Maybe , if you happen to know anyone who may have been involved somehow with this operation or any of the "mills" mentioned in the victims letter, please feel free to help out.
I hope posting this "other" forum address isn't breaking any rules here. I couldn't find one if there is. I just thought this was so important to get out there to the right community.
Thanks ,
cali

Hello All ,

Sorry about the problem with the link.
I was going with the fact that our admin. has
let it ride on our community forum
but of course, 20/20 hindsight I hope even these
folks don't get into hot water
with the legal issue.
Just hope the animals are ok.

Thanks,
cali
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  #46  
Old March 14th, 2007, 05:36 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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What I've learned on this site is that even though us animal lovers have great intentions, it's the puppymills who have the money...:sad:

Regardless of which puppymill it is, all we can do is try to educate those around us, try not to exacerbate the problem by contributing to it (i.e. spay and neuter), and adopt pets so as not to encourage these unethical "breeders".
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  #47  
Old March 14th, 2007, 05:49 PM
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I have come to the conclusion unless you are breeding your dog for some kind of greater good in the world(seeing eye dogs,special needs for people etc) i dont see why you would breed,with all the animals that need homes in this world..
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  #48  
Old March 14th, 2007, 06:02 PM
calicogal calicogal is offline
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what if...

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Originally Posted by heidiho View Post
I have come to the conclusion unless you are breeding your dog for some kind of greater good in the world(seeing eye dogs,special needs for people etc) i dont see why you would breed,with all the animals that need homes in this world..
Hello All,
Absolutely excellent post, heidiho

What if all those breeders who have a knack for
such care of dogs went about searching out
the homeless and used their knowledge and love of
the animal to place it in a good home . Let us encourage even
the Govt.s , , , to support them. How many people
would love a gov't. job ,
with all its security , to do something that actually
helps make this world better.

cali
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  #49  
Old May 14th, 2007, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by heidiho View Post
I have come to the conclusion unless you are breeding your dog for some kind of greater good in the world(seeing eye dogs,special needs for people etc) i dont see why you would breed,with all the animals that need homes in this world..

Without good breeders, only the puppy millers and byb would be producing dogs. Would we want the genetic heritage of the canine population in their hands?

Now yes I am a breeder, but I also foster for the JRTRO and suggest rescue constantly. I have a litter every year or two. But I wouldn't want my breed riddled with disease because the only breeders are the byb who don't believe in testing, or contracts or spaying or neutering. (I require any person who cannot keep the dog they must return it to me. And if anything goes wrong health wise (genetic) I will refund the full amount.)

Instead of targeting breeders how about educating the public and closing puppy mills? How many of the 'extra' dogs needing homes are from good breeders? If idiots would stop buying dogs at pet stores and from shady breeders there would be so few 'extra' animals out there needing homes.

Good breeders know we are just the caretakers of the valuable resource that is the genetic heritage of our chosen breed, and must be protected so it can be passed on for future generations of humans and dogs.
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  #50  
Old May 14th, 2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Instead of targeting breeders how about educating the public and closing puppy mills? How many of the 'extra' dogs needing homes are from good breeders? If idiots would stop buying dogs at pet stores and from shady breeders there would be so few 'extra' animals out there needing homes.
I agree.
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  #51  
Old May 14th, 2007, 09:41 PM
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I agree.
Yep!
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  #52  
Old May 26th, 2007, 11:30 AM
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Wow.
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  #53  
Old May 26th, 2007, 11:32 AM
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I agree with Prin there!
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  #54  
Old May 26th, 2007, 12:03 PM
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Is it me or are we getting more and more BYB here ?
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  #55  
Old May 26th, 2007, 12:10 PM
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BYB seems to be the way to go
Im way too touchy on the subject so im not going to say much, cause I have mentally linked the reputable breeders as feeding the BYB's.
But in the end, its people who keep it going, the ones looking for a pup and not being able to wait.
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Old May 26th, 2007, 01:01 PM
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oooooooooo. just... ooooooooooo!
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  #57  
Old October 11th, 2007, 11:32 AM
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From research,experience, and MHO , a list of what makes for a reputable and ethical breeder varies accordingly to each individual and circumstance and certain absolutes in lists are debatable. Here are some examples.

1. A reputable and ethical breeder need not be concerned with the medium in which they advertise as it is all about the screening process of anyone interested that may be judged a responsible owner which includes the details in the contract to cover all important aspects of the dogs ownership and care. Who is to say that responsible people do not read,listen,or view a particular medium and should be excluded from consideration. So to say that a reputable/ethical breeder does not advertise in xxxxx would not be on my list .

2. I do not agree with the suggestion that a responsible/ethical breeder "needs" or is "required" to have a waiting list or *buyers/homes* lined up before choosing to initiate a quality breeding. I can think of a number of examples for this reasoning as not all responsible/ethical breeders have the same goals in a quality breeding program and utimately the responsible/ethical breeder has considered all of the aspects in how to properly care for,manage,socialize,and train regardless of how long the dogs remain with the breeder. Some breeders have very focused and strict critera on whom they will approve to acquire thier dog/s and the window of opportunity for a quality/desired breeding can often be rather a relatively quick decision. For example in some cases as in herding breeds bred for actual work/performance goals a responsible/ethical breeder may need to keep the dogs for a indefinite period of time to observe which dogs they want to retain.

3. On the subject of ethical breeding or breeding with a emphasis of improving the breed this is a hot political topic and is higly charged with contrasting opinions in the dog world (varies from breed type and purpose for breeding) that makes for lots of unfriendly interactions amongst the humans.. For example a responsible/ethical breeder of working/herding dogs who strive to maintain and improve the breed by a wide range of average and perferably above average screening critera to include parents and grandparents performance and health history feel that certain breeds are *******ized by breeders who do not consider working ability/temperment/biddability (health always top consideration) primarily over all else.
For example responsible/ethical breeders of working Border Collies find it unexceptable that someone would even consider breeding a Border collie without understanding the concept of maintaining or better yet improving the herding aspects of the breed and would not classify or consider such breeders as responsible or ethical guardians of the breed.

4. Belonging to a particular registery or organization does not in itself indicate that a particular breeder is either a responsible or especially a ethical one. I can think of dozens of examples to illuistrate this opinion and anyone familiar with such organizations or registries would have little problem in understanding my thoughts on this point.

5. I also am of a different opinion on what critera goes into a "HEALTH GUARANTEE" as thier are in reality only a few things that can be "GUARENTEED" when it comes to health and genectic issues. Warrenties are of course anything one chooses to come up with and to say that to be a responsible/ethical one breeder must provide a specific warrenty for a specific amount of time (or a one size fits all approach) is in my opinion questionable,debatable,and unrealistic as critera varies according to circumstances.
Here is a example of a varied approach on the subject of health guarentees by a breeder.

6. Not all people who acquire dogs from responsible/ethical breeders (even those under strict contractual agreement) or any other source to include rescues and shelters are or turn out to be responsible/ethical people and thier simply are no guarantees in this matter except in one doing as much as reasonably possible in the screening process (everyone has different critera) when turning over a dog to another person/s care.


7. Responsible/ethical* breeders who ultilize sound health screening and other critera to include in-depth screening of potential owners are not the problem to negative dog condition...ir-responsible owners and ir-responsible breeders are the heart of the problem . A responsible/ethical breeder in my opinion will have a contractual agreement to take backany dog that they breed and should the owner allow for such dog to end up in dire consequences it is not reasonably the responsible breeders fault.


8. In my opinion the assertion that ALL responsible/ethical breeders will/must participate in rescue is unreasonable and in no way negates that person in being classified or considered as a non responsible/ethical breeder. As a breeder and one who has been involved heavily in rescue for 20 years I can think of dozens of examples to illustrate this point...


I have about 20 others points of comment on my opinion as to what constitutes a responsible/ethical breeder which I will add later as I am late for work


cheers

Last edited by Blathach; October 11th, 2007 at 03:54 PM.
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  #58  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Dean55 Dean55 is offline
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On the issue of breeders dogs being outlandish or un-reasonably high priced maybe one can find other sources of examples such as this one that attempts to break down what goes into a breeding/program .



cheers

Last edited by Blathach; October 11th, 2007 at 04:11 PM. Reason: No Self Promotion
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  #59  
Old October 11th, 2007, 01:31 PM
jillfarm jillfarm is offline
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Unhappy Spaying/neutering Too Young Linked To Cancer.

One point I have not heard mentioned here is the fact that spaying or neutering too young has been linked to higher levels of cancer in older dogs. If you read the CKC magazine, Dogs in Canada you will have read just such an article. I have looked for the article but cannot find it right now. Anyone else know which issue it is?
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  #60  
Old January 22nd, 2008, 03:42 AM
scott9710 scott9710 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaglemom View Post
Reputable breeders sell their puppies on nonbreeding contracts with a clause that states that the only way that can be lifted is when the dog attains his/her championship title and then only with the breeders' permission is the dog allowed for breeding. Many times, even if you intend on showing your dog, the breeder puts the nonbreeding clause in, not always does it mean that you must spay/neuter. There are breeders who do demand spay/neuter proof on all dogs sold as pets only and/or that are not intended to be shown. I know of someone that had to provide proof, according to her contract, that her puppy has been spayed prior to her 6th month. The puppy has already been spayed and the breeder has a copy of the certificate from the veterinarian. This breeder has checked up on her puppy to make sure all is well.
beaglemom if there are breeders that demand Neuter/spaying than why didnít the breeder have it done before selling the pups? You also mention reputable breeders contracts or lifting limited registration for breeding if the dog attains a championship, if they were to give full registration what is to stop the new owner from giving full registration to their dog litters to buyers? Even so call reputable breeders are not what they seem to be, because nobody and I mean nobody will work hard and not make a profit at what they are doing, even charities make money! It is a fact of life they only get people to donate their time but somebody is profiting on the backend, even with a charity there are administrative cost. There are numerous reason people put limit registration on their ACK dogs, one of the most used tactics is they sell there puppyís for less than the market value to make the sell, then the buyer doesnít realized the box limited is checked then finds out later they need to pay more for full registration if they want to breed their dog, or think the AKC will settle the dispute later for them which wont happen. Some breeders will even sign a contract stating the puppy is AKC registered to the buyer keeping it all legal telling them they havenít received the papers yet and when registration papers show up in the mail to the unsuspecting buyer it is marked limited. People before you buy an AKC dog go to their site they have everything you need to know including why breeders have is limited registration and not all the reason are ethical! It is a matter of buyer beware!

Beaglemom I agree with your post, there are some good breeders out there that want to keep the integrity of their dogs, but they are not losing money doing it. Also I would like to add as a fairly new breeder, it is upsetting to see people creating so called designer dogs!
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