Extreme Underweight Dane, trying something new

[jaclmickles]

We got Athos in September. He was extremely underweight at the time. We thought at first it was just from the poor care the previous owners gave him. (What thread can I go on just to gripe about these people?) They claimed he had no medical problems, that his weight fluctuated because he was depressed their family was not giving him constant companionship. In the two weeks waiting for them to provide his vet records we gave him one of the higher end priced foods, falsely believing all the hype over these foods (yes, I now know better). Obviously his weight never changed, and of course the idea he was lonely was disproved since I stay at home and homeschool our two children. Athos is not alone much. Finally realizing that the previous owners lied through their teeth about vet care, shots, and everything else we immediately took Athos to the vet for a full range of shots, tests, even a general antibiotic and wormer just in case. His weight at that time was 115. The vet said to keep him on the high dollar pet food and we'd recheck in 2 weeks. No change. I changed foods to another of the same kind of foods and gave it more time. Next check, still no help. During all this his poop kept changing as I'm sure you could imagine would happen with all the changes in his diet, and none of it was good. The vet kept running tests and still not finding things. I finally discovered RAW and, much to the disapproval of my vet I tried that. (She even gave me two books to borrow, each a few inches thick, to read that pretty much said how wonderful regular commercial dog food was.) I tried plain items at a time (just chicken for a bit, etc) then this wonderful concoction I was given on another site. Unfortunately at the same time I started putting digestive enzymes (prozyme) on his food. Within a month he gained 10 lbs. So, we didn't know which did in fact help. The vet never could figure it out and her next thought was to send even more bloodwork halfway across the country to see if there was maybe a malabsorption problem. Unfortunately she said this costs hundreds of dollars and we had already spent an enormous amount. I know how horrible this sounds, but we couldn't afford to pay even more after so much already with no results.
So, I started trying to figure out if it was the exzymes or the food, or both. I gave him the enzymes on the old dog food, and I could tell it wasn't keeping weight on him. I tried the RAW without the enzymes, and it didn't do much good either. I know the obvious answer would be to go back to the wonderful concoction and enzymes, but it's impractical seeing as how it takes hours to make a supply that lasts just a week or two. He also didn't eat the plain chicken well either so going to that wouldn't help either. During all this his weight dropped back low. I also kept up research on food. I discovered the errors of my ways in believing the hype and relying on those who believe the hype about regular high priced commercial foods. The specialty store we got the prozyme from also had a few choices for food. I picked up a bag of Canidae (Shelby said their other dane customers liked it) and more enzymes. I started Athos on it a couple of days ago. Then I found this site. I've read some statement that lead one to believe the high quality of this food might be enough to help Athos. However, I want to be sure. So, my questions:
Medical related:
What do you all think?
Food related:
Do you think the current Canidae/Prozyme blend should work?
If it does, should I let him get to a good weight on both then back off to see if just the Canidae is good enough or should I just keep him on both?

Also, I've enclosed a picture so you can see what I mean when I say underweight: ribs and spine easily visible from a great distance.

Thanks,
Christy

[4thedogs]

I may have missed it but how old is he? Danes can continue to put on weight until they are 3 yrs old. He shouldn't be that thin but it could be that he was stressed. How much did he eat in a day when he was on kibble.

[meb999]

awww, poor little guy...Is he young?

Have you heard of satin balls? Buster was very skinny when we got him and he put weight on in no time with these treats. There are alot of different recipes.
from : http://www.njboxers.com/satin-balls-recipe.htm

Ingredients

10 pounds hamburger meat [the cheapest kind]
1 lg. box of Total cereal
1 lg. box oatmeal
1 jar of wheat germ
1 1/4 cup veg oil
1 1/4 cup of unsulfured molasses
10 raw eggs AND shells
10 envelopes of unflavored gelatin
pinch of salt

Mix all ingredients together, much like you would a meatloaf.

Divide into 10 quart freezer bags and freeze.

Thaw as needed and feed raw!

I made up my own recipe because Buster has digestive problems...this one was easier for him to digest (and easier for me to pick up after... ):

cooked ground beef
raw eggs
a little bit of bread crumbs
and cottage cheese.

I don't know the exact amount of each I used to put....just enough for it to hold together in a little ball. you freeze them and give them as treats. Dog's LOVE it!

[meb999]

Also...we have an AWESOME food forum here : http://www.pets.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=53 there's lots of helpfull info on what to look for. Canidae is a great food...

[rainbow]

The satin balls are a great way to put weight on a dog. I agree that Canidae is a good choice. Another good choice (but a little more expensive) is Innova regular ( www.naturapet.ca ). It has more calories than Canidae.....557 Kcal per cup and Canidae has 468 Kcal per cup.

BTW, Athos is very handsome.

[Prin]

Good suggestions have been given but if he's a puppy, you're going to have to consider the calcium content of the foods you give him. It's better for him to gain the weight gradually than quickly because his bones and joints need time to get stronger, especially if he wasn't fed properly.

[Smiley14]

She said he was 3 1/2 years old in the welcome thread, so not so much a puppy anymore. But it does sound like he was never given the proper nutrition to develop fully. So sad. I'm so glad he's in a loving home now!

I'm sorry I don't have any good advice for you, just wanted to say Welcome and Good luck!! Athos is very beautiful. Does he not have an appetite where he's not eating enough or is it more no matter how much he eats, he just doesn't gain anything? Have you tried a second opinion from another vet? That must be so heartbreaking for you to witness! My Petey gained weight on Canidae (a little too much!), so maybe it or one of the other foods suggested here will help. Good luck!!!

[technodoll]

what a beautiful dog i feel your pain... also endured a very skinny dog not interested in ANY food so we ended up force-feeding him our own concoction of raw, and it has worked miracles. you could see his spine, ribs, hip-bones at 2.5 years old we knew there was a problem (nothing medical). he just didn't eat that much. well a few months after feeding him twice per day he gained a ton of muscle and energy and looks awesome

you could feed raw one meal and kibble the next... it would stretch your raw concoction quite a bit. also check out the raw-feeding forum, there are some pictorials i put up of how we make our ground mix. if you have a good electric meat-grinder it takes no time at all for the amount of food you get... plus it's inexpensive, you KNOW what is in there, no grains, good raw fats, etc. 100 grams of regular raw ground beef has 280 calories, if you stock up when it's on sale (never pay more than $1 per pound!) it's great.

Or add some canned fish to the kibble (salmon, sardines, mackeral are all excellent), full-fat cottage cheese and plain yogurt, raw or cooked eggs, cooked meats, canned quality food, etc. and continue with the digestive enzymes, if it has proven good then it's a cheap way to ensure proper food absorption... no more vet bills

good luck!!

[jaclmickles]

Sorry if I didn't put it in here. Athos will be four in March.

[meb999]

he certainly has a very kissable face

[jaclmickles]

You all have been great. Thank you. I am very proud of him. He is a gorgeous dane, isn't he!?! (Okay, so I'm not modest about how beautiful he is.) We had a dane that died a few years back that was a good size dane. Athos is actually much taller than Prince was. I don't see the size thing, though. He's not big, other dogs are just small. He just needs to have his body filled out to match. The pictures don't do his height justice. I'll get one of those on here sometime. I did include another picture of him below. One is with our sons, the other is him curled up with our 3 y.o.'s blanket.
With the bad kibble I gave him about 8 or so cups a day, divided into two feedings. Sometimes he would eat that much, other times not. For RAW he got about four lbs a day of the following concoction:
20 pounds ground 70/30 beef
2 pounds beef or chicken livers pureed in the blender
12 eggs pureed in the blender with shell
1-pound bag of cranberries pureed in the blender with the eggs
2 containers high fat ricotta cheese
2 cans jack mackerel or Salmon - drained
2 big cans spinach drained
1 box total cereal
1 jar wheat germ
1 big round box oatmeal
1 can of pumpkin
2 cups unsweetened applesauce

4 lbs was a little higher than the general 2-3%.

Now he's getting 6 cups of the Canidae, divided into 2 feedings a day. He's eating almost all that, maybe leaving half a cup or so each feeding.

Some of Athos's other issues are that he was not taken care of by the people we got him from, nor the people who had him before that. He was abused. He is very cautious of people, just depending on the person. He will shy away from you if your voice is raised too much and get in that submissive position, even if it wasn't directed at him.
The people whom we got him from claims he had been bred twice, but everything else was a lie so I tend to believe this was also. He does have a dominant male dog personality and will try to let you know he's the dominant one if you're in any way in a submissive looking position while playing.
As with all danes, he's just a big baby, though. He wants constant love and loves to play. If he wants pet you'll get that sad puppy dog look and then he'll help himself to your hand by putting his head under your hand and picking it up.


Over all I'm just worried about his weight. I'm hoping it's the malabsorption problem. Does that ever correct itself and is it common in danes?


Thank you all for all your help and kind words.

Christy

[technodoll]

some suggestions re: your raw mix... not enough meat, not enough calcium, and too many grains. in fact there should not be any grains at all, they just take up bulk in the stomach where meat should be, which is what carnivores do best on. if you want your boy to gain weight, feed him:

60 to 70% raw meat (and raw bone-in fish)
15 to 20% bones
10% organ meats
and a smattering of other good stuff... eggs, pureed or steamed veggies, cottage cheese, yogurt, canned fish, etc.

the calories and needed proteins and raw fats are in the meat, not in grains. Our raw mix cost us $0.54/lbs (regular ground beef and chicken frames) and we toss in a bit of veggies, eggs, fish, olive oil, cottage cheese, yogurt, green tripe, etc.

If you feed about 2 or 3 lbs of this per meal, and the other meal Canidae or any other quality kibble of your choice, i will bet you a nice steady and healthy weight gain in muscle in a few short weeks. Better glossy coat, better poops, etc.

Or you can take the easy street (which is the best actually) and just buy bone-in meats on sale (whole chickens, turkeys, pork roasts, beef parts, etc) and give the raw meat chunks for your boy to dig into. or do some days ground mix, some days whole chunks. If you watch the sales, make friends with the butcher, etc this is not at all expensive, much less than trips to the vet and expensive meds and a shortened life span

more photos please? he's just gorgeous!

[papillonmama]

Here here on more photos, I even think he needs his own thread.

[OntarioGreys]

Hi, he is gorgeous looking

Something I noticed from his pictures, he is not just underweight but his muscles especially on the hips and thighs are very minimal

Which would lead me to think it is something medical.

My girl Callie was a hard keeper, I used to give a can of ensure + calories a day to her when I noticed weight was falling, but could not encourage her to eat more, especially being she was a senior dog
her in the background

A month later she fell ill dropped 6 more pounds in this pic but note her thigh muscles ( she recovered from the illness)


My next girl Maya arrived very underweight, she is an extremely anxious/fearful dog and had went thru a very high period of stress for the 2 months prior to her arrival here which cause a huge weight loss

side pic

front pic taken same day but again you can see the muscle toein her thigh even being she is just a youngster


Your boy should have much better muscle development especially for his age then he is showing, being on the raw diet, the higher level of meat protein should have helped build muscle tone, you may need to run several tests before you get an answer as to why, another possibility could be tick disease. some of the possible symptoms are weightloss, muscle wasting, lethargy, depression, anorexia,

[Dad of Dog's]

Someone here can probably help you better with what to use but I would suggest you put him on a good supplement. If he is missing something it will cause his body to not function properly to allow proper weight gain.