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Old February 21st, 2004, 07:43 PM
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Re W5

Well I finished watching it.

And all I can say is WOW.

This poor little 4 year old was mauled by an Akita.He was in surgery for 18 hours.This Akita was a family pet and never showed aggression at all.The child was not left alone.The dog just attacked.The little boy has 2 beautiful Golden Retrievers.He still has nightmares.This happened in the summer in Edmonton.


Also they had a member of the Quebec SPCA.He said that there were 117.000 dog bites reported.And of those dog bites,58% where kids under 10.

Also there was a woman working for a trainer in Quebec who go fired for telling the trainer she didn't like the method that was used.The dogs where being hit to obey.Choked with a pinch collar.

Trainers are training dogs to attack.I'm talking about ones who sell these "gaurd" dogs.Some one went under cover to one of these trainers.They showed her a GSD.She asked where she would put this dog in her house.He said anywhere as long as there is no one around.She asked if she should socialize him.He said no way.You don't want him to be friendly.

They were talking about banning certain breeds.They said it didn't matter,other ones are being bred and are coming from foreign countries.They are stronger and bigger.

Like the DOGO.They are a bigger version of the American Bull dog.

It just broke my heart as to how they were training these poor dogs to be killers.

A woman got a Rottie pup from a so called breeder.She is having major problems with him.He could be the sweetest thing one minute,then nasty the next.She said that the father didn't seem very nice.She said she could see it in his eyes.She was saying that it was bad breeding that made her Rottie the way he is.Plus the dog is 2 now.And starting to growl at her kids.She was saying the breeder is still continuing to breed using the male dog.

Wel I think this is it.If I think of anything else I will let you know.
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Old February 21st, 2004, 11:12 PM
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Wow

Saw W5 too. For anyone who wants to view "Bred to Bite" as shown tonite you can access it at CTV's website:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...8///?hub=WFive

Its very sad that there are people out there who would breed dogs like this on purpose.

I know a lot of people have really nice dogs of these different breeds they were talking about, and that any dog could bite, but they had an expert on the show who mentioned the common statement "it's not the dog its the people that own them" and her opinion was that it wasn't always the people and that there are people that have done everything right and still end up with an aggressive dog.

A big point of this story was to caution people about getting some of these "muscle" breeds. The fact that they are dangerous is not all a myth. It isn't always just the people that own them that make them dangerous, the breed can just be dangerous period.
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Old February 21st, 2004, 11:24 PM
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I haven't heard of this show but it sounds as tho it tells some really gruesome stories...
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 08:03 AM
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Thanks guys for the update...what do they consider "Muscle breeds"? With a good breeder are they still bad?

Too bad about the little fellow in Edmonton.. I had seen the story when it happened
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
A big point of this story was to caution people about getting some of these "muscle" breeds. The fact that they are dangerous is not all a myth. It isn't always just the people that own them that make them dangerous, the breed can just be dangerous period.
There is scientific evedence that no breed of dog is inherently viscious. While I am not able to get my hands on that evidence at this time, when I do, I will let you know.

Dogs that are irresponsibly bred, with no concern for genetics - both conformation and temperment - can grow up to be unstable. If you combine that with an owner who has no idea of how to train or socialize the dog and you have a recipe for disaster.

I have a "muscle" dog. She is completely trustworthy and often the first big dog the neighbor children meet. She has been stood on, sat on and sometimes the boy tried to ride her like a pony. My son can take anything out of her mouth at any time. She is a joy to take places and everyone who meets her, loves her.

To say that a breed of dog can be dangerous no matter what is irresponsible.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 10:27 AM
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What they mean by "muscle" breeds are the

Cane Corsos,Fila Brasilerio,Dogo Argentino and the Presa Canario.

These are all the new "rare" breeds that are around now.

They are bigger and stronger.And weigh up to 150lbs.

As for the good breeder making them bad.No.

Any licenced responsible breeder is not breeding them to be bad.It's the irresponsible ones that are making them bad.And for that reason only.It's the stupid people who want these dogs to be this way.They want the macho dog.They want it aggressive.That's why they are having them trained this way.

You breed a bad dog,10-1 you will get a bad dog.No matter how well trained you have it.Look at the woman who got the Rottie as a pup.She has tried everything.He was poorly bred by an aggressive male.

And I do believe that any breed can dangerous.Yes,even the small ones.No they don't do the damage of a large dog.But they still can.A dog can snap at anytime.And I don't mean as in bite.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 12:09 PM
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Just finished watching the W5 seg and overall, I think it was good. But almost one-sided. Ultimately the message was that there needs to be laws in place that regulates breeding practices.
Lavender, I think you're right too. Obviously, if poor specimans are allowed to be bred and sold, then of course there are dogs out there that are beyond anything anyone could do...even Dr. Koren.
These "muscle dogs" are being poorly bred, no doubt that this was clear in the seg. But I think the APT and other breeds were given somewhat a bad representation. Like LR wrote in a different post about how these breeds NEED to be trustworthy with people even for the wrong reasons.(Handled in the pits. Without this trait how could you transport, or do after____ care?)
I wish the seg could have shown more thoughtful, educated differences of opinons, though.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Smile Oops, sorry, it was Marko

Sorry, it was Marko that posted the pit bull reference I was making...But Lucky agreed
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 12:29 PM
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I too have a "muscle breed" (pit bull) who displays correct temperament for the breed - loving and submissive to ALL people and snarky with other dogs.

The difference between her and breeds like the Cane Corso, Dobie,Mastiff, Fila, etc is that these are guarding breeds, and correct temperament for THEM is to be suspicious of strangers and willing to actually attack if necessary.

Fila Brasilieros, for example, had a place guarding remote plantations. They do NOT have a place in busy urban areas, since they are very hostile to strangers and WILL attack for something as minor as being touched by an unknown person.

All the so-called "muscle breeds" are being perverted and exploited by people who have no business owning these dogs at all! These dogs were bred for a specific purpose which had nothing to do with propping up the egos of pathetic losers and wannbes who have severe self-esteem issues.

As for Akitas - Sherry E.Wallis, author, breeder and fancier has this to say:

Akitas frequently direct aggression towards strangers in the home, especially children. They also display dominance aggression in and outside the home. Perhaps all this aggression is related to a strong pack instinct where aggression arises from a perceived threat either to the dogs place in his pack or to the pack itself

All these breeds are NOT for novices, or for anyone unwilling to do their homework before bringing one of these dogs into their homes.

And as if there aren't enough problems with established breeds getting into the wrong hands, check out one of the newer arrivals on the scene. "Highly aggressive" dogs bred JUST to attack people. What kind of people do you think they will attract?
Canis Panther
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 12:57 PM
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According to this web site, the Canis Panther has no known health issues. I beg to differ. All of the dogs that they used for developing this "breed" have your regular large breed issues. Hip and Elbow dysplasia, SAS, and a few others that I can't name off the top of my head.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 01:10 PM
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OMG.

Under the first pic of that Canis Panther,there is a link under it "finding a breeder"......Have you seen the different breeds?


Boerboel
Blue Lacy
Hairless Khala
Kooikerhondje
MI Ki

WTH...Where did these come from?

The Boerboel looks like the next muscle dog.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 01:16 PM
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First of all I would like to say that I like all dogs and don't hate any breed of dog. My brother owns a really nice pit-bull and is a single man with no children who devotes a lot of energy to the dog, which he rescued from the humane society.

So before anyone gets defensive, because they take personally what I say, I would like to say that if you have one of these dogs who has been a great family pet and you are one of the people who are suited to owning this dog then I think it's great that you do and you are doing the breeds reputation well.

I think the point the show was trying to make was that certain breeds have been bred this way and it seems to be becoming more prevalent overall with certain breeds.

OF COURSE NOT ALL OF ONE BREED OF DOG IS BAD!

Personally myself I wouldn't take a chance getting a breed like that with small kids because the potential is there. When you research different breeds you need to consider all the different aspects of the breed and some breeds are more suitable to a home with small children. You can research, but lets face it you can only research so far.

I think that if you are getting a dog like any of the breeds mentioned or something you better have researched and be completely prepared and have the ability to train it.

The unfortunate reality is though not all people do that, yet they are purchased as family pets. It takes nothing to go to the humane society and adopt a dog who's history you only have a limited knowledge of and bring it home.

When something does go bad with a dog like the Dogo it could go real bad real fast.

When you own say a beagle, the disposition is generally a good family dog and if something were to go wrong, the results are not the same as if something goes wrong with a pit-bull, that is just a fact.

To simply state that if you are a good owner then your dog will not be vicious is not good enough, you have to realize the potential is there sometimes despite the best of intentions.

The expert they had on this show also made a point that she thought that owning any dog over 35 lbs, should require a licesnse, not just certain breeds but all large dogs, so I don't think she was making a blanket statement of all of a specific breed. She acknowledged that laws banning breeds don't work, because there is always a different breed or a cross of a breed that comes along that isn't covered in the ban, and there could be a vicious labrador retriever that isn't covered.

I own a large hound and I reazize that owning any large dog bears a greater responsibility in our society.

I don't think when a family is researching the type of dog to buy, that a pit-bull or one of the other breeds mentioned in this show would be a suitable choice for the MAJORITY of families.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 01:49 PM
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Dee,I'm glad you saw it too.I knew there were other things I forgot to mention.You did that for me.Thank you.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 05:26 PM
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I don't think when a family is researching the type of dog to buy, that a pit-bull or one of the other breeds mentioned in this show would be a suitable choice for the MAJORITY of families.
The difference between pit bulls and these other breeds is that pit bulls were NEVER bred to be aggressive to humans, and before the scum got their hands on them they were known as wonderful family dogs.
They are notoriously bad watch dogs, and are stolen regularly because they are so friendly. One pit bull rescue I know of has guarding (Neos, Filas) breeds on the premises to protect the pit bulls! This is because the pit bulls in rescue have the PROPER temperament and are friendly to everyone.

However, I agree that many people should not have them if they aren't prepared to deal with possible dog/dog aggression.

Dog aggression and human aggression are two entirely separate things, which many people do not understand.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 08:38 AM
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I too have a "muscle breed". I have a pit bull, a pit bull mix, and a gsd.

All my dogs get along and very well with our 3 small childern ages 5,2,1.

They play (I watch them when they play and when they play w/our children at all times). We NEVER had any problems.

I'm getting really sick and tired of Sue S. (who needs to be evaluated) and everyone else who is bad mouthing these loveable breeds (due to the low life's who have nothing better to do).

Our dogs are loveable and love people. When people come to our home they (the dogs) get excited and jump w/tails wagging and of course the LOTS AND LOTS OF KISSES especially from our Petie he's the Pit Bull.

So much for my dogs being "Vicious".

I had it w/Sue she needs to do better background on breeds before she opens her stupid mouth. She's consistanly contradicting herself.

My honest opinion she doesn't give a hoot about the dogs it's all for publicity. And that's sad. I watched that video and it made me sick.

i do feel for the families whose children were attacked. But let's remember there are neglectful parents out there too and when they don't watch or pay attention to what their children are doing and something happens, they should also be held responsable.

I'm sorry for the long ranting but this frustrates me.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 08:57 AM
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When you own say a beagle, the disposition is generally a good family dog and if something were to go wrong, the results are not the same as if something goes wrong with a pit-bull, that is just a fact.
I have a beagle mix and a rottweiler. In my house, you are more likely to get bit by the beagle.

Most viscious dog I have ever seen? A pekingese. Dog that bit me for no reason that I could see? A miniature schnauzer.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 09:24 AM
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I wasn't saying that any dog couldn't be vicious.

What I was saying is that people should be careful that they choose the right dog for their family. Given information like the story presented and information for the other side (which wasn't given) The chance for serious injury or death would be much greater with a dog such as the pit-bull than with a pekinese, not saying one could not be as vicious as the other but your chances of surviving a vicious dog attack from a pit-bull would be less because of strength and size.

And I have met a lot of small dogs whose behaviour is awful. Having a large dog myself, if my dog were to jump just once, even gently when we approached someone on a leash people would think its just awful, yet a small dog can jump and jump and jump near your ankles and peoples reaction is not the same. It seems worse cause they are large, so I understand your point that many small dogs are vicious/ ill mannered too.

I think a lot of the time people put up with things from small dogs they shouldn't, and couldn't handle were the dog much bigger.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 09:35 AM
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Pit Bulls are friendly and wonderful dogs!

I'm not attacking anybody, I'm just trying to make a point.

It's the low lives that own them and make them vicious and fighting dogs that's bad. My Pit Bull, Pit Bull Mix and GSD would never attack anyone UNLESS someone was doing physical harm to one of us. Which is normal for dogs to protect their family. But if a pit bull were to protect he/her family from someone who was hurting the family member, the pit bull would just be accused of attacking an innocent person. Just because it's a pit bull, which isn't right or fair. You can't condemn all pits b/c of some irresponsible owners.

That's like someone judging you for what race you are before getting to know you. And that's not right or fair either. I don't mean this to be racist, i'm just trying to find a good example to use.

People need to look and do research on Pit bulls. I never had one until my hubby brought petie home to me for my Mother's Day Present and you know what, I DON'T REGRET owning a pit bull. All they want is to be loved just like any other breed.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 09:38 AM
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Ummmmmmm,who is this Sue S?

I have heard this name on another dog site.But no imformation was given about her.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 09:38 AM
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Dog that bit me for no reason that I could see? A miniature schnauzer.
My brother's wife has one of these. "Oscar" is 10 years old and has bitten every single family member and drawn blood on many occasions.

"That's just the way he is. I guess he's spoiled" is what she says.

My brother had a Husky/GSD mix for 15 years. This dog was 70lbs, and would BITE KIDS for absolutely no reason, and would lunge at strangers when on leash.

I wonder what people's reaction would be if my pit bull did things like this?
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 09:52 AM
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Ok I'm curious now? These muscle breeds the new ones are the new breed? Are they crossed with something else? I'm just wondering if they are more like a wild dog then a companion dog?
But even wild animals don't attack for the heck of it?

I have been scared the pants off by small dogs. My Baba (Grandmother) had the peke....I was so darn scared of it as a child. This other fellow had a springer spaniel that hated kids. Let me tell you I had no doubt of that.
Motzi is not the friendliest dog. She is very suspicious of people (She was badly beaten and abused). I don't think she would attack but who really knows what goes on in the minds of dogs?
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 10:27 AM
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Here are a few links to these rare breeds.

http://www.dogo.org/DACA/dogo_history.htm

http://www.thefbca.com/


http://www.rarebreed.com/breeds/cane...e_history.html



http://www.presa-canario.com/
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 10:29 AM
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Oops,the page i wanted for the second one didn't show....you will need to go to the faq on the left.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 10:30 AM
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With the exception of the "Canis Panther", most of the breeds discussed are not new - in fact some of them, like the Neapolitan Mastiff - are ancient.

Others, like Cane Corsos, Dogos, Filas, etc. were never commonly seen, which is why some people may think they are new. Some of them (can't say which offhand) are also not recognized by the AKC/CKC, so you wouldn't even see them at AKC dog shows.

With the exception of the Neos, I have never seen any of these breeds in person myself.

And considering what one breeder of Filas has to say, I hope I never do!

"You cannot socialize a Fila to like people. You can obedience train them so that you are in control, but you cannot socialize them to like people. A Fila WILL attack a stranger. Period. If they have the proper temperament, they will. "OJERIZA" translates to "hatred and fear of strangers."
You do not "make" them mean and vicious to strangers - they ARE, and there is no doubt about it.
They are not a dog for a person who has an active social life."


I know of someone who has two of these dogs, and also has two kids. She says she makes sure the dogs are locked up when her kids have friends over, but how long until someone makes a mistake?

So when all the pit bulls and Rotties have been banned, is this the next dog for the scumbag section of society? This is very frightening.
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 03:57 PM
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OMG... canis panther, makes chill run up my spine, it looks like a scary dog to me, and its name implies attack or similar (cant find right words here) panthers are fast, sleek and attack with precision, this just scares the hell out of me. i am terrified of meeting this type of dog in the street, it would just kill my dog. but it does look like a few pig hunting dogs i know. there are several tricks i know to kill an attacking dog (only for the dire situation) i havee never used it myself but know a woman who did when her life was in real danger, but these tricks cannot be used on the muscle breeds due to the thick chest muscles, a human or animal has no chance with this type of dog, how the hell would you get it off.
but i have a GSD who is soo loving and just adores kids (if we see any in the street she is desperate to play) and i trust her (to a reasonable extent, you get to know someone in 8 years pretty well) but i would not leave her alone with small children, they just harass her and make her hide and it is irrisponsible and illeagle to leave a dog unsupervised with a baby. when my nephew was a babe (so was my pup) he used to terrorise her, pulling her backwards by tail, fingers up the nose and in the eyes and the rest and she never cared, just loved the attention. and she still does, how many little girls have played dress up with her, she love it all.
when we walk along the street she has her ears up, people cross the road, none of the owners at the park want their little dogs near her cause apparently she looks like a killer or something. what really gets me is that anyone can see from a glance the control i have over my dog and how well trained she is, each morning i take her to the park (very big, huge actually) and throw the ball and she retrieves it and brigns it to me, and so on, this is her excersise. the amount of people that freak out when she looks at them when of lead, my god, she is only looking, she is not going towards them or anything just looking at who is around.
but they all have little dogs that act like they want to kill us and are totally untrained. ahhh it just makes me angry, and not to mention the insult of people thinking i am irrisponsible and would allow a vicious dog, but the reaction is different when my partner walks her, i swear (the following is in a very sarcastic tone) it is- he is a man so therefore must have a trained dog and be in control, but a small woman, well she wouldnt be able to do it, the reaction is soo diferent and it drives me crazy, i have more control than my partner but most people have more faith in him. the poor GSD has got a bad rep.

when i was a small child i was attacked by an aunts poodle and it tore a hole in my cheek, and it was a small dog. i dont like many small dogs for this reason, at least with the biggies i can see em coming.

recently saw an add for attack dog training, you post your dog to the trainers and they will return it a month later trained as an attack dog with a list of commands. just imagine what they dp to the animal to make them so vicious, it would take some pretty cruel training to get my girl to attack, that is for sure. this type of thing really scares me to death, guns are illeagle here but you can own a dog as a weapon, makes no sense ot me.

sorry for the length but i always have alot to say
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