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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:38 AM
labowner1969 labowner1969 is offline
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Exclamation Question for community

Hi there,
I'm new to this forum, and have registered to get an opinion from other pet owners regarding an experience that I recently had with my dogs vet.

We have a lab male, and a labradoodle female. Neither of them neutered or spayed. Our lab that we have had for 4 years is such a great dog that we thought that we might someday breed him so we decided not to neuter him. The labradoodle... Well we basically had her dropped on us as friends of ours had to move out of province. It was put to us that if we didn't take her then she was going to the animal rescue league. So.. We too her in. We immediately made an appointment to see the vet about having her spayed and apparently it was too close to her cycle so we had to wait. You're probably beginning to understand where this story is going.

So moving forward to the future. We expect that she is pregnant so we take her to the vet to see. He didn't think she was (but said he would check the next time she was in) so we made an appointment to have her spayed finally. 3 weeks later we take her in. I'm thinking that she's looking like she might be pregnant. Her rib cage seems wider, and nipples are much larger. My wife drops Bella (our labradoodle female) in for the operation, we get a call within an hour from the vet personally. He didn't check to verify whether or not she was pregnant and made the incision. Only then does he realize that she is indeed pregnant. He calls and lets us know and says he'll sew her back up and it "should be ok".

Am I crazy or does this seem totally messed up? He admitted no wrong doing and gave us the bill like nothing happened. I'm pretty angry and considering taking some sort of action. This vet is really a pretty good guy and even if he did something wrong, I don't blame him for not admitting it, as it leaves him open immediately for legal action. I'm not interested in trying to sue him for doggie malpractice or anything but if something does go wrong with my dog or her pups then I fully intend to do something.

My question, after this long short story is does anyone else here think that in the final week of pregnancy this vet should have easily known that she was pregnant without cutting her open? It seems to me that he was totally negligent and failed to read her file. Maybe it's because he's going through some personal issues or who knows, but I believe that he really screwed up.
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  #2  
Old July 25th, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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It's unfortunate the pregnancy wasn't caught earlier to have the pups aborted.

I don't have much to say about whether or not the vet was negligent - if you're not happy with the outcome, perhaps find a new vet?

Do you at least know how many pups you're expecting at this point? You should be getting an xray to get a count so when the time comes you can be sure momma got them all out and there are no complications... breeding and puppies really isn't for the faint of heart

Hope you'll get the girl spayed asap as well as your boy - unless you're doing full health testing and proving your dogs in some fashion (either working trials, conformation, etc) then there really isn't a good reason to be breed them.

Good luck.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:17 PM
labowner1969 labowner1969 is offline
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I appreciate your input on the xray. I have already booked an appointment to get that complete. I also understand your logic behind breeding my male lab, however I disagree with only breeding dogs for the working trials and confirmation. I am a dog owner because I love dogs. It sounds like you're saying that the only reason that dogs should be bred is to put them in shows.

We want to breed him as he is an incredible pet, easily trained, very protective of our children (but not aggressive), unusually non hyper, and a great hunting dog. The plan is simply to find another lab with similar characteristics and having pick of the litter with expectations of continuing owning another like him when he eventually is gone.

The pregnancy with the female that was literally just dropped on us was pretty much unavoidable. It certainly wasn't because we aren't responsible pet owners. I wouldn't have had the vet abort the pups anyway. We already have a line up of people we know that have asked for a pup just because of how great a dog they know our lab is.

This is all really a moot point anyway. The question was regarding the veterinarian. You seem to have plenty of knowledge and opinion on breeding but can't say if you think that a vet should or should not have attempted to spay a dog in their last 7 days of pregnancy...?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:40 PM
Jull Jull is offline
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I think I know where LL is coming from, I too think that breeding dogs should be left to register breeders who will test the animals for genetics and health issues (they all have to as per their code of ethics) in fact, I believe they have to give you a lifetime guaranty on the pet. They have been properly trained and educated on proper breeding. Not for "show dogs" but for service dogs, or when you really want that pure breed dog because of its particular personality or characteristics.

Also, just because your dog has a great temperament, it is not for sure their puppies will. We are all here big animal lovers, and the fact that there are so many abandoned dogs because of irresponsible breeding, hurts. It is not a personal attack to your choice.

I don't know if the doctor did wrong or not by spaying her after pregnancy, but I also don't think is unheard off, I did a simple google search and found other cases where it had been done. If you want to be sure, maybe you could contact other doctors, aspca, vet school or vet association in your province, and see if anyone could give you more information on it, then you know if you should change vets...?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 03:09 PM
labowner1969 labowner1969 is offline
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Some things are lost in text Jull. I really didn't take it as a personal attack from LL. Nor was I meaning to seem combative. And I do understand the dog breeder opinion. We all have our opinions on these types of things. I probably have a differing opinion on dog breeders than most. It is because I have been to some places that breed dogs professionally. I can't say that I would even purchase a dog from any that I've been to. My opinion is based on what I have seen and witnessed personally.

I'm sure there are plenty of great dog breeders out there, but the ones that I have visited seem to treat the animals poorly. The two that I saw must have also ran like doggie hotels. The dogs are caged inside and outside, constantly bark. It reminded me more of a dog pound. Surprisingly I know of several people that paid big money for purebred dogs that came from breeders, only to have them die very early from all kinds of strange medical conditions. It would leave one to believe that these "breeders" didn't stretch far enough to make sure that the dogs weren't related. Maybe they weren't registered?

I have never purchased a dog from a breeder, and every dog I have owned so far has had a long full life with no hip problems, weird bone or organ anomalies. My cousin recently bought a boxer and paid almost 1k for him. She purchased the dog from a breeder from Ont. and the dog just died of a bizarre heart condition.

Because of these reasons I'm far from sold on them. I know it's not a guarantee that a pup from my dogs litter will have the same great traits, however I've had dogs all my life. I have used the same method of picking pups out of a litter each time I have acquired one. So far it has worked great!

The puppies will all be check out at a vets, have their needles, etc.

I didn't plan or want this batch of puppies, but I still wouldn't have aborted them all the same. The dog was dumped on us, and we have done as much as possible to give her a great home. She is a pretty good dog, albeit pretty dainty and girlie. Not exactly the type of dog that I would ever choose. Good lord she can't even fetch! lol. She is awesome all the same, and my wife and two girls ages 10 and 12 adore her.

Lastly, I'm really not looking for validation or justification to sue the vet. I also believe that you may have misunderstood. He did not spay her. He started to spay her, realized she was pregnant then sewed her back up.... He was supposed to check if she was pregnant first. I basically just wanted some input on whether anyone thought it was odd. Personally I think it is.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
It's unfortunate the pregnancy wasn't caught earlier to have the pups aborted.

I don't have much to say about whether or not the vet was negligent - if you're not happy with the outcome, perhaps find a new vet?

Do you at least know how many pups you're expecting at this point? You should be getting an xray to get a count so when the time comes you can be sure momma got them all out and there are no complications... breeding and puppies really isn't for the faint of heart

Hope you'll get the girl spayed asap as well as your boy - unless you're doing full health testing and proving your dogs in some fashion (either working trials, conformation, etc) then there really isn't a good reason to be breed them.

Good luck.
I was going to say that too , it might be best to find a new vet and ask some friends if they can give a name of a good vet .
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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:04 PM
Jull Jull is offline
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hmmm those do not sound like legit breeders at all... more like puppy farms.

I do think is odd, but I have never had an experience like that, so is really hard to know. But, I would say if you feel he shouldn't have done things that way, try to get others opinions.

And if he was doing a very bad job then I would probably report him, but of course that would be if he was not supposed to do that at all.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:32 PM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jull View Post
hmmm those do not sound like legit breeders at all... more like puppy farms.
Agreed.

OP - please don't interpret that those who may show their dogs in conformation and/or working trials automatically qualifies them as a reputable breeder. There is a lot that goes into bettering a breed or at the very least, maintaining the breed standard - beyond the 'show world'
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:06 PM
lindapalm lindapalm is offline
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In my opinion the fact that you took your dog in to see if she was pregnant and your vet said no, but three whole weeks later he went ahead with surgery without noticing anything again, makes him an idiot. I would be looking for a new vet now, before you need one for the puppies.
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  #10  
Old July 26th, 2013, 08:45 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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I think it's firmly established and confirmed your Vet is an eejit.

So I will address the irresponsibility of BYB. It sounds as if these might have been the breeders you speak of.

A reputable breeder proves their dog worthy of being bred by showing it in competition for conformation or obedience or hunt tests or field trials or something but that's just part of it. They health test their dog for elbows, hips, heart, eyes, and with a Lab EIC and CNM. Some of these can be passed on to pups if the dog is a carrier and is bred to the wrong bitch. The dog and bitch themselves may not show the ailment/disease. Then reputable breeders stand behind their puppies with a health/temperament guarantee. Plus a reputable breeder will be able to similarly show the results of such health tests for their dog's parents, grandparents and great grandparents. Their dogs will be registered with the Canadian Kennel Club (if in Canada) but that in itself is just the beginning and in no way guarantees anything other than pedigree. Labs are the most popular breed in N. America for something like 17 years in a row and one of the most poorly bred by BYB.

This Labrador Retriever board has a whole section advising people on what to look for in a breeder. http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/finding-breeder/
A look here might help you decide if you really want to go about bringing yet another litter of puppies into the world when so many are already available in shelters. In general I think you will find here that we love all puppies, well bred from reputable breeders or rescues from shelters and mutts. Most of us would pay for a well bred pup or support a shelter or rescue but never, again, pay money to a pet store, puppy mill or BYB. The "again" is in there because so many of us did when we knew no better, which seems to be where you are at right now.

I hope your poor doodle dog is OK. If you wanted her spayed I don't understand why the Vet did not abort the puppies and go ahead since he had her open anyway. Please have both your dogs altered or watch them more carefully. I'm sorry to say you must bear some responsibility for allowing her to become pregnant in the first place.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 05:06 AM
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Koteburo Koteburo is offline
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Regardless my position about breeding. When it comes to your question: Yes. I think the vet screwed up big time. It should be the most basic thing that he could realize she was pregnant before putting her under, let alone cutting her. There should be at least a simple physical examination just to make sure things are good to go and there is not an obvious condition not to go ahead unless the pregnancy was at the very beginning and unnoticeable.
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  #12  
Old August 21st, 2013, 05:41 PM
abmacdon abmacdon is offline
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Vet accountability

I'm curious about what you were billed for if the vet didn't do the spay. Seems odd to me. Regardless, veterinarians are regulated in most provinces and the NB vet association should be able to determine whether anything was handled poorly. If I were you I would file a complaint if for no other reason than to find out whether it is considered "normal" or "bad" practice. You can find them at http://www.nbvma-amvnb.ca/.
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