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  #1  
Old July 6th, 2012, 09:23 AM
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Charliee Charliee is offline
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Whippet- neuter and food advice by vet- please help

Just got back from my vet who told me NOT to neuter my male Whippet as this will reduce his Whippet/athletic characteristics. He also said because they are such a loyal even temperd breed that personality wise there would be no advantages. (FYI He's only a family pet, no shows or lure coursing in his future.) The breeder we got the puppy from did say he has never needed to neuter any of his male dogs, just females.
I was also advised by the vet to start changing him over to adult food after 4 months to limit any tendon problems associated with quick bone growth caused by the puppy food. ?????

I'm a 1st time dog owner and this advise seems to go against everything I've read to date. Does this make sense to any other Whipppet owners out there?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Charliee; July 6th, 2012 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Typos
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  #2  
Old July 6th, 2012, 10:09 AM
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First off, I'm not a Whippet owner.. but.. I will pipe up with my thoughts

I'm pretty sure neutering will not reduce your dog's natural athletic characteristics. I'm not a vet, but this is the first time I've ever heard that said.. You may wish to wait until he's closer to a year old before having the procedure done.

Regarding food - I'm not a big fan of puppy food to begin with. Loki was never on puppy food, but with giant breeds, you have to be careful of growth problems. What are you currently feeding? I'd recommend a high quality ALS food (Orijen and Acana come to mind)
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Old July 6th, 2012, 10:42 AM
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If you do not neuter, you risk him marking in the house! I would personally have him neutered.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:11 AM
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Now I'm not a scientist, but isn't it DNA that pretty much determines growth? And to ensure that growth and development is done to it's best potential is by providing the best possible diet? If for humans, that entails fresh food and not processed, would that not also hold true for dogs ?

I am not a dog nutrition expert, but for my foster kittens a raw diet has always made them develop much stronger, muscled bodies compared to kittens the same age that are fed a commercial diet. They didn't grow taller , but were much more filled out and were about a pound heavier at 4 months, but with no fat coverage. So that concludes to me that diet plays a heavy roll in development of strong, healthy bodies and fresh food does a better job than processed in accomplishing that (I imagine it also helps in developing healthy organs too).

I have no advise on early neutering.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Welcome to the board Charliee. I've never owned a whippet, but I've never heard of your vet's reasoning for not neutering your dog. Long and short is the dog may be very active, very charming, very loyal, but if a female in heat comes to visit, or wanders by the yard, you will have a hand full of horny beast on your hands. He will do everything he can to mate. He may also take to marking in the house. He may also develop testicular cancer. Sorry I totally disagree with your vet. I'd get a second opinion from a different vet.

As for the diet, I also agree that there are many natural foods out there (grain free) that are formulated now for all stages of life. But do go for a good quality food, not one of the over hyped commercialized diets out there. Stay away from any food with corn listed in the top 3-5 items.

Good luck to you with your pup, and we'd love to see pics if they aren't already somewhere that I haven't spotted them yet!
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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Marty11 View Post
If you do not neuter, you risk him marking in the house! I would personally have him neutered.
I know of dogs that where neutered and they barked in the house. My Standard Poodle was neutered and he barked at anyone that walked by the house. I think this has to do with a dog temperament , Marty was neutered when he was 2yo at the shelter and he does not bark in the house , he is a very laid back dog. My last dog was not laid back a lot.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Barkingdog View Post
I know of dogs that where neutered and they barked in the house. My Standard Poodle was neutered and he barked at anyone that walked by the house. I think this has to do with a dog temperament , Marty was neutered when he was 2yo at the shelter and he does not bark in the house , he is a very laid back dog. My last dog was not laid back a lot.

I think Marty meant urinating for marking.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Eearly neutering, as in before the dog is fully physically mature and done growing and filling out does indeed change how the dog will grow. Dogs who are growing without the necessary hormones do grow up to be longer and thinner (scientifically proven) and with less muscle mass. Argue it all you want, it's true.

All modern studies into the differences between intact and altered dogs, male and female, in fact don't support ANY of the usual spay/neuter mantra or reasons for fixing. Intact dogs tend to show less aggression, have less fear issues, are far calmer, and can be better companions then dogs that have been spayed or neutered and this has been shown to be true regardless of the age of when the dog was fixed. This is true for all of the medical information quoted as well. Intact dogs face fewer medical risks, and spaying and neutering has actually been linked to some very serious medical issues. One of the major ones being bone cancer. The risk of testicular or mamary cancers in intact dogs which is what is often quoted as the reason to spay/neuter are TINY in comparison to the risk of bone cancer in spayed/neutered animals. In addition testicular and mammary cancers are relatively easy to deal with and have a high survival rate, bone cancer on the other hand has a very high mortality rate.



The question really should be, are you prepared to live with an intact dog? No the do NOT mark more, that is hogwash. Are you prepared for the responsibility of owning an intact animal, taking precautions making sure he does not accidentally mate with a female? Most doggy daycares and dog walker will not accept an intact dog. You may not be able to take your dog to dog parks, not because your dog is the issue, but unfortunately neutered male dogs can be extremely aggressive towards intact dogs. Since you have a whippet, you might already be prepared to deal with the fact you will never let him off leash (it might even be in your breeder's contract). That will make most of the above stipulations easier.


As for changing to adult food, you never mentioned how old your dog is now.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:21 PM
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I could see the lack of testosterone causing a decrease in muscle.
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  #10  
Old July 6th, 2012, 03:43 PM
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I understand not neutering giant breed dogs early, but with a smaller breed dog I don't understand why not. I see woman weightlifters with good muscle definition. If you keep your dog active he'll still have muscle tone without the testosterone.

Would someone please tell my SIL's unneutered male dog to stop marking in my house (we have a spayed female) apparently he's not supposed to want to do that!! Unaltered males DO mark territory - everywhere. I have never had a neutered dog come in and pee on my couch! Not to say it couldn't happen though.

I just personally think the benefits of altering your pets outweigh the negatives. Just my opinion though. Choochi is right about the added responsibility that comes with unaltered dogs.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 04:15 PM
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Whippets are extremely sensitive to anesthesia and barbiturates so there is a good amount of risk to him should he be surgically fixed. It is my understanding that there is an injectable product called neutersol (or something like that) which will render him sterile but won't reduce hormones.....? Anyone experienced with this product? I'm still on the fence as far as what to do. Being a sighthound and very very fast he will not be left to roam off lead- making puppies isn't really a true concern of mine. I think I may end up waiting this out to see how his behaviour is as he matures... just don't let Bob Barker know, K?

As far as food he's 3 months now and the vet did suggest switching him over to an adult food starting @ 4 months. He is currently on a grain free commercial puppy food and will remain with the same brand should I switch to the adult version.

Are Whippets common on this board?
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Old July 6th, 2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charliee View Post
I think I may end up waiting this out to see how his behaviour is as he matures... just don't let Bob Barker know, K? :laughing
Our Loki will be 4 in November. He's still intact (he does conformation showing with CKC). We've never had any behavioural issues, never marked indoors, no signs of aggression, etc. I'm certainly not against spaying/neutering, but I do think some pet owners are capable of owning intact animals responsibly.

I'm a big fan of whippets - have you shared pictures yet??
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:17 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I think Marty meant urinating for marking.
Yeah that would made sense , my dog did that when I first got him. He was neutered at 2 yo which it rather old. . He peed in my bed and at the foot of my bed ! I had no idea why as I take him late at night , like 12: 00 AM. The people next door had a male dog staying there and Marty was marking 'his' territory which happen to be 'my' bed! He only did this once and that was too
much!
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Old July 6th, 2012, 06:19 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Originally Posted by Charliee View Post
[.....]

Are Whippets common on this board?

AFAIK - not really. I think it would be very useful to check out a breed-specific board as well. Once you gather more info you will be able to make more informed decisions on what works better for you and your pup.
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  #15  
Old July 6th, 2012, 07:38 PM
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AFAIK - not really. I think it would be very useful to check out a breed-specific board as well. .
I kind of got that impression. I'll probably have to lurk elsewhere.
Thanks all.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:01 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Originally Posted by Dog Dancer View Post
I understand not neutering giant breed dogs early, but with a smaller breed dog I don't understand why not. I see woman weightlifters with good muscle definition. If you keep your dog active he'll still have muscle tone without the testosterone.

Would someone please tell my SIL's unneutered male dog to stop marking in my house (we have a spayed female) apparently he's not supposed to want to do that!! Unaltered males DO mark territory - everywhere. I have never had a neutered dog come in and pee on my couch! Not to say it couldn't happen though.

I just personally think the benefits of altering your pets outweigh the negatives. Just my opinion though. Choochi is right about the added responsibility that comes with unaltered dogs.
No one said they can't build muscle, but that ability is decreased, and their skeletons and bodies do develop differently. Imagine if you took a human boy and took his hormones away when he was 10yrs old, do you think he would grow up to look exactly as he would if those hormones were there?

Dogs marking has far more to do with training and what they have been allowed to do then if they are neutered. Trust me, I run a doggy daycare, I would love it if it was true that all neutered males didn't mark. Unfortunately it isn't. If you allow your dog to mark when they are younger, they will continue to do so even after they are neutered, it is a simple habit. I can't even tell you how many neutered males I have had in my care who are obsessive markers. I mean all day long when in an environment with other dogs present all they want to do is walk from one object to another and mark. I some times wonder how they don't dehydrate and shrivel up. I've even had one who peed on my TV the second he walked in through the door. I've had plenty of intact males around who have never marked more then any average dog has to to relieve themselves.

The fact that your SILs dog marks in your house plain and simple is because you have allowed him to, not because he has testicles. It's a house training issue. Dogs don't always generalize their house training to new homes, especially ones with other dogs.

Last edited by Choochi; July 6th, 2012 at 09:13 PM.
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  #17  
Old July 6th, 2012, 09:10 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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How lucky you are to have a Vet who is up to date and looking out for the health of your dog and not assuming you are an idiot who will let it run loose willy nilly, procreating like mad. Or dliliberately allowing it to breed. We need more Vets like yours.

Choochie is correct, recent research shows many risks associated with neuter and spay, particularly but not limited to, those done before puberty. Along with benefits, it's not one sided one way or the other. Dr. Chris Zink urges leaving canine athletes intact and she does not discriminate between large and small breeds. An article of hers is in the list.

Here is a list of articles summarizing research into this subject. I suggest the first two articles for health concerns. I will put in red ink another that is incredible fascinating on behaviour. Contrary to popular belief many commonly held notions about neuter and spay have never been proven by scientific research and this paper will turn your head around.

This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help with the health questions and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf...ma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...vet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/fil...Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...ionindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%..._neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control • www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_H...n_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.


http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..? -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neuteri...eutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com...ebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete”
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/...episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/a.../art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu†

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-en...tion-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...lityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet – the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelter...ay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration – What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-...ate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? – Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files...20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in DogsDeborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD 10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-beh...n-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehavi...neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O’Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,


http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat...ad.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993 See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files...20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001 American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/0...nResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/...talDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity: lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online: Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...g-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online: Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O’Meara Pet Informed: http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...com/index.html

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...114-7/abstract
Breed differences in canine aggression 1, Dec. 2008
Deborah L. Duffy, Yuying Hsub, James A. Serpella


http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman, Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters
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  #18  
Old July 6th, 2012, 09:46 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charliee View Post
Whippets are extremely sensitive to anesthesia and barbiturates so there is a good amount of risk to him should he be surgically fixed. It is my understanding that there is an injectable product called neutersol (or something like that) which will render him sterile but won't reduce hormones.....? Anyone experienced with this product? I'm still on the fence as far as what to do. Being a sighthound and very very fast he will not be left to roam off lead- making puppies isn't really a true concern of mine. I think I may end up waiting this out to see how his behaviour is as he matures... just don't let Bob Barker know, K?

As far as food he's 3 months now and the vet did suggest switching him over to an adult food starting @ 4 months. He is currently on a grain free commercial puppy food and will remain with the same brand should I switch to the adult version.

Are Whippets common on this board?
Neutrsol will make him sterile and I don't believe you can get it in N. America. That's what my Vet said but it was a few years ago that I asked. Superlorin will make him sterile temporarily but it's not available here either. You could investigate vascectomy which would render him sterile yet keep the testosterone production.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 10:11 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty11 View Post
If you do not neuter, you risk him marking in the house! I would personally have him neutered.
So not true! I have a 3 year old intact male in my house and he has marked ONCE and only once.

A dog that is properly trained and housebroken does not mark in the house.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 08:00 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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So not true! I have a 3 year old intact male in my house and he has marked ONCE and only once.

A dog that is properly trained and housebroken does not mark in the house.
I wish you could train cats like you can dogs
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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