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Old April 7th, 2011, 08:10 AM
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the power of playing

I allways have hear that the moment of playing is when we sometimes see some educational problems. For example: when the dog is coming showing a toy in his mouth I knew that isnīt inviting me for to play, he show his toy like his trofeu, his grate medal like "I want to play with this ball now! Because I'm the alph and now it's to play now!"

One think wich I have read in the book of Jan Fellen, is when one dog are playng to the get the ball she says if the dog don't return the ball it's a sine of grate audacity.

In this situation what we do? We fake that we don't want to play or just take the toy from his mouth and stop the playing like who is saying "that's enouth!"?


By the way, she says to for never enter in draw games because the dog could think that he is the boss and he is the strongest one? But I can't see why never draw games if I always win in draw games...
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Old April 7th, 2011, 08:31 AM
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When my dog greets you or when she's really happy, she grabs a toy, but does not want you to have it either. Just for show..... I am not sure what that means either.
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Old April 7th, 2011, 08:59 AM
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millitntanimist millitntanimist is offline
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Dogs play for the same reason all animals do (including us) - to develop good social skills, to build physical endurance and, well, to have fun
There is nothing wrong with how your dog is trying to play with you - "keep away" is a very common game - but if it's not the way you want them to engage you teach them other games you want to play instead (i.e. tug, fetch, "find it" etc.)
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Old April 7th, 2011, 09:04 AM
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How do u teach "find it". She has (I'm sure like most dogs) an amazing sniffer. She will dig to china if there is even a crumb under the couch. I think we would enjoy that game.....
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Old April 7th, 2011, 02:31 PM
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millitntanimist millitntanimist is offline
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I'm going for quantity over quality here (i couldn't find the video I was thinking of) but here are a few that might help

This has a breakdown of the find-it game (a little ways in)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mTgIMr_1w

This has a number of scent games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJxG-...eature=related

This one is working on object discrimination once you have mastered the find-it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pyFTcuUfSM
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Old April 12th, 2011, 07:12 AM
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If you get read the Jan Fellen book you will know what I mean...
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Old April 12th, 2011, 08:16 AM
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millitntanimist millitntanimist is offline
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I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.

I found these books very informing and interesting, maybe you might like them too?

http://www.amazon.com/Other-End-Leas...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understan...2613872&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-...ef=pd_sim_b_13
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Old April 13th, 2011, 01:00 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
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Your post is laden with emotional and prejudicial language. You are claiming to have knowledge about the mind of the dog, something you couldn't possibly have.

There are several studies that point to the fact that dogs play differently depending on whether it is dog-human or dog-dog. The studies are long and complex but it comes to this: with humans play is cooperative and with among dogs it is competitive.

Some of the best trained dogs I've seen are protection schutzhund trained dogs and in training they always get to "win.", I'm not necessarily suggesting it is causative but I would suspect there is a correlation.
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Old April 13th, 2011, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millitntanimist View Post
Dogs play for the same reason all animals do (including us) - to develop good social skills, to build physical endurance and, well, to have fun
There is nothing wrong with how your dog is trying to play with you - "keep away" is a very common game - but if it's not the way you want them to engage you teach them other games you want to play instead (i.e. tug, fetch, "find it" etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by millitntanimist View Post
I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.

I found these books very informing and interesting, maybe you might like them too?

http://www.amazon.com/Other-End-Leas...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understan...2613872&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-...ef=pd_sim_b_13
I agree with both these posts . Play is an excellent way to improve your relationship with your dog and is an amazing training tool. Please don't read all sorts of alpha things into your dog wanting to play with you. Take it as a compliment that your dog enjoys interacting with you. It is important to teach an "off switch" so you aren't being demanded to play all the time but that can be easily taught with positive methods.
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Old April 13th, 2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millitntanimist View Post
I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.

Just give me two or three examples most relevants about her fairly?
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Old April 14th, 2011, 07:50 AM
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The idea that dogs will try to "dominate" you unless you maintain your role as "alpha," and that all dog behavior problems arise from this struggle for "dominance," is based on bad science.
There are novels written about this but here is a super-condensed version .
The "dominance" theory started with observations of the behavior ants (yup, ants) and was erroneously applied to all groups of animals. The concept of alpha was added after studies of captive wolves in the 1970's (wolves who had no association with one another that were thrown together, thus creating an unstable social structure) were seen to fight for their "rank" within the group. These then, in turn, were applied to dog social interaction, and despite the body of research that has since been done with wolves, as well as feral and domestic dogs that disproves these assumptions (that feral dogs form packs like wolves, that you must always eat before your dog to establish "alpha", that struggles for power in a wolf pack are frequent and violent, etc.) they continue to persist. Even at the behest of the scientists who performed the original research.

The books I suggested cover all of this but if you want here are a few articles that offer the same information.
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/ar...2808%2900115-9
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...lpha-dog-valid
(this one is reeeeally long, but the it's the best researched)
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

Hope this is helpful
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Old April 15th, 2011, 04:20 PM
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1st the wolf than the dog
 
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Ants? fake science?? NOW I'm realy confuseddddd... They descend from the wolf, I'm realy realy confused now...


I will try to read, but I guess this is will get a new road for me...

Ohhh dear... how could this be


P.S: thanks any way, unless now I know the trought...
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Do you know what's the motto of the dogs?
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Old April 15th, 2011, 05:49 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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I play tug with my dog, I win, she wins....neither wins...no big deal. We play keep away..that's a good one. I push her away and she comes back for more, it's alot of fun, we wrestle too. She brings me a toy, if I feel like playing we play, if we don't I tell her to get lost She'll go get her bone and chill with that for awhile.
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Old April 16th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Etown_Chick Etown_Chick is offline
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My dog plays competitively with humans, or tries to. I don't play that game. It's a great way to get bitten, even though it's by accident.
I think play is a great way to bond with my dog. We both enjoy it. That doesn't mean I"m a play machine and play every single time he wants to. He is very bossy and demanding, and the more I give in to that, the worse he gets.
That doesn't necessarily mean the Alpha/dominant theorists are correct. It's just the way he is.
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Old April 24th, 2011, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millitntanimist View Post
The idea that dogs will try to "dominate" you unless you maintain your role as "alpha," and that all dog behavior problems arise from this struggle for "dominance," is based on bad science.
There are novels written about this but here is a super-condensed version .
The "dominance" theory started with observations of the behavior ants (yup, ants) and was erroneously applied to all groups of animals. The concept of alpha was added after studies of captive wolves in the 1970's (wolves who had no association with one another that were thrown together, thus creating an unstable social structure) were seen to fight for their "rank" within the group. These then, in turn, were applied to dog social interaction, and despite the body of research that has since been done with wolves, as well as feral and domestic dogs that disproves these assumptions (that feral dogs form packs like wolves, that you must always eat before your dog to establish "alpha", that struggles for power in a wolf pack are frequent and violent, etc.) they continue to persist. Even at the behest of the scientists who performed the original research.

The books I suggested cover all of this but if you want here are a few articles that offer the same information.
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/ar...2808%2900115-9
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...lpha-dog-valid
(this one is reeeeally long, but the it's the best researched)
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

Hope this is helpful

I have seen the bibliography, what's the top10 books do you recomend me plzz???
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Do you know what's the motto of the dogs?
"One for all, and all for one!!!"

Last edited by pick; April 24th, 2011 at 05:43 PM. Reason: ortography
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  #17  
Old April 28th, 2011, 02:12 PM
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Thaaannkk youu, a lot!!

The publishures are in down of the links

http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-Startling-...3756279&sr=8-2
Publisher: Scribner (May 27 2001)

http://www.amazon.ca/Power-Positive-...3756337&sr=1-1
Publisher: Howell Book House; 2 edition (April 4 2008)

http://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Shoot-Dog-...ref=pd_sim_b_1
Publisher: Bantam; 1999 edition (Aug 3 1999)

http://www.amazon.ca/Other-Leash-Pat...d_bxgy_b_img_c
Publisher: Ballantine Books; Reprint edition (April 29 2003)

http://www.amazon.ca/Talking-Terms-D...d_bxgy_b_img_b
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing; 2 edition (December 2005)

http://www.amazon.ca/When-Pigs-Fly-T...ef=pd_sim_b_18
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing (April 15 2007)

http://www.amazon.ca/How-Behave-Your...3756943&sr=1-1
Publisher: TFH Publications, Inc.; 2 edition (Sep 17 2010)

http://www.amazon.ca/Culture-Clash-J...3756975&sr=1-1
Publisher: James & Kenneth Publishers (October 1996)

http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-are-Neptun...3757220&sr=1-1
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing; 2 edition (April 15 2009)

http://www.amazon.ca/Excel-Erated-Le...3757297&sr=1-1
Publisher: James & Kenneth Publishers (October 1996)
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Do you know what's the motto of the dogs?
"One for all, and all for one!!!"

Last edited by pick; May 3rd, 2011 at 07:31 AM. Reason: put the publishures
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