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  #1  
Old March 11th, 2011, 01:24 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Dominance Based Trainers!

What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 01:37 PM
Jim Hall Jim Hall is offline
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YOU WILLDO WAHT I SAY OR I WILL GrAB YOU AND HURL YOU TO THE GROUND DO IT NOW AND NO BACKTALK DOYA HEAR ME??? i ahve had dogs all of them form the pund and never ever had to use dominance traing
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  #3  
Old March 11th, 2011, 03:48 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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There are so many different types of trainers with different philosophies and methods.
I have always said to keep an open mind. I always mix it up. I am not a treat trainer..BUT if nothing else works than I most certainly will resort to it. I find it very sad that trainers stick to one method (their method) and not go outside the box. I find it very informative and also enlightening to take different courses or watch different trainers 'do their thing'. I like to incorporate many different ideas and I would never stick to one method..it does not always work.
It is important for those taking courses to feel comfortable about how their trainer are working with their dogs. If something does not sit right with you..then get another.
For me personally, I will at times resort to a more 'dominent' approach if required. Really, it depends on the dog, the issue you are dealing with and the limitations of the dog.
People however are getting alittle too sensitive with a more direct approach to training. Some dogs require a more hands or they may require a harder lined method.
I do not believe in clicker training for obedience. With that said..if I was failing in all other avenues I certainly would try it.
I my opinion all trainers or those that train have something very valuable to share. All dogs are different and the key to success is finding out what the triggers are (if we are dealing with issues) and then finding a remedy to help the dog overcome.
I say 'mix it up' and don't get stuck with training only one way.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 05:49 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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I find it gets all very confusing! I use a clicker, mostly for teaching tricks. I haven't really worked on the obedience type things lately. I would like to once the weather gets to where I can work outside...too cold still!!

I may be moving to a part of the province where there are rattlesnakes...I want to teach Bayley that snakes are to be left alone. She's seen a couple of snakes in her lifetime. One, a big rat snake, hissed at her when she went to sniff it and she backed right off. Now I've heard alot train snake avoidance using an e-collar. I have the collar, just not sure I want to use it, but like some have said, if it's a matter of saving the dog's life then you do what you have to.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 09:40 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
I am not a treat trainer..
Nobody is, they were invented by the jerk trainers to demean a principle (not method) they don't understand.
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  #6  
Old March 12th, 2011, 05:50 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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For special needs dogs (deaf for example)..treat training or reward training is a good method.
Also - don't forget...custom dogs are actually trained with a reward (usually a ball or toy). Their basic training however is not reward motivated..it's real hands on work.
So in this example you actually see two methods of training used for obedience and integrating a job.
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Old March 14th, 2011, 12:03 AM
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tenderfoot tenderfoot is offline
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I agree the 'positive' trainers can be some of the most vicious people when dealing with other people than many of the trainers who use 'other' methods with their dogs. Did that make sense? I was on a 'positive only' forum for about a year and have never witnessed such arrogance and rudeness in my life. Yet a local man who runs a shock collar training company is a very nice person, I shudder at the things he considers training a dog but he is nice to people. Go figure, the world is a crazy place.
Just be sure that you can sleep well at the end of your day knowing you have done the best for your dog.
Many methods will work with the majority of dogs, but if you have been unfair to your dog then you need to rethink your methods.
Personally I don't think anyone can guarantee 100% predictability with any dog. Heck, I can't promise that I will perform perfectly 100% of the time.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.
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  #9  
Old March 11th, 2011, 06:03 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by Choochi View Post
Oh honestly.. in my books any trainer that sticks to one method and lives in a box is a bad trainer, be it all positive or what I can only assume you mean some one who uses corrections by applying the "dominance" label which is so ignorantly applied to some of these trainers. The positive only trainers can be just as bad and ignorant and equally as stuck up and arrogant, some down right abusive towards any one who disagrees with them.

There seems to be an explosion of all sorts of bad trainers who think they know it all because they watched a tv show, or answered a few posts on an internet forum, and their methods are the best and the only ones that work, and they are the only ones who can help a troubled dog and any other methods used will only ruin the dog, and god forbid should they ever even consider stepping outside of their box and using a training method alternate to theirs.
Very true. Just like anything else in life, things evolve. Training is not only a talent but it is intuition. The most important thing about training is not just the training itself but understanding the pre-dominent breed in the dog, his/her limitations, capacity to understand, and how or what is responsive to the dog. Understanding behaviour is the most important thing to identify..and then train based on this understanding and also by appreciating the dogs qualities. All this must also fall within the confines of the capacity of the handler who will be following through with the advice and the training suggestions provided...(does this make sense?)
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Old March 11th, 2011, 08:59 PM
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Sylvie Sylvie is offline
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Benmax, I totally agree with you. If you don't understand the dog, then it doesn't matter what you do. Each dog is different . My four each have a different personality, ranging from soft right up to arrogant. Each needs their own brand of training.

I also agree that some people think they know how to train just by watching t.v. or listening to other people. It is really a hands on learning from the dogs that makes training a success. Am I making sense???
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  #11  
Old March 11th, 2011, 09:38 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
What is it with these types of trainers. They always seem to think that they know it all and only their methods will give you a reliably trained dog. Only they can train a dog to obey every command every time without fail. They always go on to say that anyone using positive methods cannot guarantee a dog that will listen every time!! That you always need to have a pocketful of treats or you dog will not do what you want.

There seems to be an explosion of these types of trainers, they seem to be very loud if you know what I mean on their websites, very demeaning towards anyone who uses a positive training method. Very arrogant as well. I suppose it must be their type of personality and this type of 'training' fits that type. It's too bad that the positive trainers either can't or don't want to push as hard to get their points across.

Maybe they only have access to books from the 1930s?
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Stinkycat Stinkycat is offline
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Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:25 PM
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akaJenT akaJenT is offline
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I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:55 PM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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Originally Posted by akaJenT View Post
I'm learning the hard way that my son is right about training. I tend to treat my dogs like kids and spoil 'em. My son is more like a loving drill sergeant. He has warned me that the large Husky I have doesn't see me as the pack leader. I ignored him mostly, but I understand some of his "I'm the boss" antiques and thought I did pretty good at shutting those down. But just last night he challenged me a bit and took a token swipe at the back of my leg as I walked away. If I had had him since he was a puppy, I wouldn't have this problem. I'm a little hesitant about laying him out and growling in his neck when he's so huge and my son said he senses that...all this to say I think I believe in both approaches, positive reinforcement but some dogs need a little more, IMHO.
can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:03 PM
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akaJenT akaJenT is offline
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can I ask what the reason is for growling into a dogs neck? if I do that to my very very submissive dog she gets all excited and attacks me in play with her back end tucked up and running around like a fool.
If you have a submissive dog, you'll never need to. Mine is a huge husky/rott mix, very alpha and always testing the limits. I'm not as familiar with huskies as I'd like to be but I don't think they're known for gentleness. Rottweilers are GREAT family dogs and I'm hoping he takes after that breed.

I think Rufio might actually try to bite me the next time we have a showdown on whether he gets rinsed off the next time I take him to the bay where he jumps up to his neck in quicksand-type scum that reeks and wears like black tar. Last time I caved after a slight rinse and he just had to stay outside a few days. Next time I plan to put on his harness and rope him off like my friend does with her horse so I can clean him up and let him inside...if I ever take him there again, still not sure. He just loves it so much though.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:58 PM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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but what is the reason for growling into his/her neck??? whats it suppose to do?
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Old March 24th, 2011, 03:18 AM
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growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
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Originally Posted by akaJenT View Post
I'm not as familiar with huskies as I'd like to be but I don't think they're known for gentleness.
Siberian Huskies are very well known for being dogs of gentle temperments. They are playful, loving, gentle, family oriented dogs, most are friendly with strangers & while some may be wary of strangers they are not watch dogs.

Sibes are intellegent & fast learners they can be willful during training if they don't see the need to constantly repeat a command they already know. It takes time, patience and a gentle but firm, confident & consistant handler to properly train a Sibe. They need mental as well as physical exercise/stimulation or they may become destructive or escape artists from sheer boredom.

Some info on Sibes here:
http://www.siberianhuskyclubofcanada.com/
http://www.shca.org/shcahp2b.htm
http://www.southernsiberian.com/abou...n_huskies.html
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  #18  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:48 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkycat View Post
Positive Reinforcement Training has been misused by alot of trainers who use aversive methods, when positive training is meant to be strictly reinforcing positive behaviours only.

I myself have used both methods of training on my own dog and on clients back in the day and honestly positive reinforcement works every single time. You have to break down the training method by using reinforcing rewards, as treats may not be reinforcing to one dog but to another it's all they want. Even with people reinforcing will get you alot more from them then scolding them. Think about it, if your child gets an 'B' on a test and you tell him or her that a 'B' is horrible and not good enough, smack him and force him to work harder, what are the chances hes going to? Most likely he's gonna break from stress and the grades will get worse because he's so afraid not to get an 'A' on the next test. Yet if you were to give him $10 bucks and praise letting him know if he gets an 'A' next time you'll give him $20. I would and did work my butt off for that $20 bucks because it was reinforcing to me, it motivated me to do better.

90% of my clients use leash corrections, yelling, scolding, smacking methods on their dogs, and really what happens is the dog builds up tolerance to it, the yelling no longer works and the smacking only happens when they're around so he'll be a terror when they're not around. When I come in to their homes I right off the bat show them the power of positive reinforcement (dogs naturally want to please, they're a social species). In 5-10 mins of working with a dog they are glued to me.

Now I'm not saying you let your dog get away with everything, but I find people are sometimes too harsh on their dog. Some dogs, yes, need more of a firm leader, alot don't. I've used punishment techniques on my dog when I first got her and I wish I could go back and never do it, it caused SO many side effect behaviour problems. I have since stopped using any form of physical intimidation/punishment and most of the behavioural problems STOPPED. She listens out of her own will to, I rarely need to put a leash on her, she is glued by mine and my bf's side.

My clients all have a 100% success rate when working with positive reinforcement, but it has to be done properly and consistent otherwise you're just confusing the dog.

P.S. Dominance training is CRAP. It's very rare that you will see a true dominant dog and even then through reinforcement that can change.

A wonderful book anyone should read is The other end of the leash by Patricia Mcconnell. It gives you an insight of why we do what we do around dogs.
I actually like what you wrote. The only thing I will however challenge is the thought that dominance in dogs is rare. For those that work in shelters or rescues, we see more cases of dominance than I guess a trainer will get. BTW - I am NOT randomly labelling a dog as dominant..just so that we are clear on this.
As far as preparing a dominant dog up for adoption, the approach most times is the quick method based on what the dog responds to immediately. Unfortunately at times there is no time to get a dog ready using only positive reinforcement. Infact, in situations like dominence, it could ultimately cost a dog it's life as the shelters start to fill up. 'Keep the good..unload the bad'. I do not believe in bad dogs..just dogs that require more work..and time just does not permit this.
If you have the time, and the resources, and the clientele, then yes...great way to teach through positive training.

Kudos to you.
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