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Old December 9th, 2010, 01:09 PM
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Protein Content of Raw Meats Compared to Grain-Free Kibble

I just thought I'd throw this out there for anyone who was curious about the protein content of raw meat in comparison to grain-free kibble.

There is a misconception that raw meat is high in protein when, in fact, it's quite low compared to many brands of high-quality kibble.

For example (in our case, 1lb of raw would equal 1 cup of kibble), per cup serving, Orijen contains a minimum of 40% protein. Per pound serving, lean beef brisket contains approx. 21.43% protein, chicken breast with skin contains approx. 18.1%, and dark meat turkey contains approx. 20.1% protein.

I was just wondering about what I've read about grain-free kibbles being "biologically appropriate" .
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Old December 9th, 2010, 01:39 PM
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You could only compare on a dry matter basis, so to accurately compare, you would have to know the moisture and protein content of the meat (take out fat, bone, ligament, etc, etc.). To me, that would be very difficult for the average person to calculate accurately.

Why I love raw is because it contains the nutrients in it's natural form and the kitties get a lot of fluid, the way mother nature intended, not the human species.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 01:47 PM
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I was thinking of that, L4H, but tried to calculate approximately how much protein our guys were getting from each method of feeding.

If feeding all three dogs raw, they each get about 1 1/2 lbs (Penny sometimes more) per day. If feeding Orijen, they each get 1 1/2 cups per day. So I calculated how much protein they were consuming with either method and I came to the conclusion that raw ended up being about 1/2 the amount.

Am I making sense ?
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Old December 9th, 2010, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
I was thinking of that, L4H, but tried to calculate approximately how much protein our guys were getting from each method of feeding.

If feeding all three dogs raw, they each get about 1 1/2 lbs (Penny sometimes more) per day. If feeding Orijen, they each get 1 1/2 cups per day. So I calculated how much protein they were consuming with either method and I came to the conclusion that raw ended up being about 1/2 the amount.

Am I making sense ?
Yes, perfect sense. So are you thinking that dogs are getting too much protein if they are on a kibble diet?
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Old December 9th, 2010, 02:02 PM
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In some cases, yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Although there isn't much info out there, I did find some studies that suggested there was a correlation between high protein and certain forms of aggression/anxiety/hyperactivity. Not that high protein caused these issues but that it could make worse problems that already exist. I know there are other arguments for and against a high protein diet but aggression was the one that I was concerned about.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 02:04 PM
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Oh, and I came across one dog food manufacturer (including grain-free kibble) that briefly mentioned this on their site as well...I thought it was interesting to see there.
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Old January 5th, 2011, 01:53 PM
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It's a complicated world

There is protein and then there's protein. You can get your protein from a vegetarian diet but then you'd be considered a nut by normal people. Don't argue. It's a fact.

I saw that CBC documentary where an old boot (a shoe, not the wife) was boiled with a bunch of motor oil (don't have exact recipe so don't ask) with some nails or something to add for essential vitamins or minerals and the dried result sent to a laboratory (stress on "or") passed on inspection as healthy dog meal. Could save a lot of money by making your own chow this way which is probably pretty close to how kibble pushers make their stuff.

If you live in a city (a big one) see if you can't find a Chinese Grocery store that sells meat they butcher on tables behind the till. I get my necks (22¢ each), legs with fingernails (24¢) bones (2$ a bag) from one and the meat looks so clean and lasts a long time (longer than from Safeways) in the fridge before I have to wash it with peroxide prior to turning into soup for the wife and kids.

The dog and I prefer the raw stuff and we both have all our teeth.

Go feed your dog kibble. To each his own. I have higher standards for my loved ones, especially me.

Namaste,
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Old January 5th, 2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mhikl View Post
There is protein and then there's protein. You can get your protein from a vegetarian diet but then you'd be considered a nut by normal people. Don't argue. It's a fact....

...Go feed your dog kibble. To each his own. I have higher standards for my loved ones, especially me.
That's not the gist of this thread...we're not discussing low quality kibble here nor people's choices .


A little update. I've sent two emails to Champion Foods asking for some info on protein and amino acid content in terms of grams per cup rather than percentages so I can better compare to raw meats (I'm horrible at Math ). I'm still waiting for a reply.

We haven't supplemented with Orijen in a month now and Penny's behavior/mood continues to improve. She's no longer hiding at all, hasn't had one reactive episode since, no longer needs hours and hours of exercise, and is generally calm. I have added 5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan), 12.5mg twice daily to her meals in the last three weeks as well.

I wish there were more studies/research to explain these changes. Other than what's already been mentioned, I can't find anything .
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Old January 5th, 2011, 04:17 PM
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I think you would be hard pressed to find any studies as it would be pet food companies that fund the studies and they don't want people to start feeding their pets quality, human grade, the way nature intended food.

The concentrated protein levels in kibble along with the chemicals could really do a number on some animals, just like junk food full of carbs and sugar are affecting children.
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Old January 5th, 2011, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
A little update. I've sent two emails to Champion Foods asking for some info on protein and amino acid content in terms of grams per cup rather than percentages so I can better compare to raw meats (I'm horrible at Math ). I'm still waiting for a reply.

I'm surprised that you haven't had a reply ....I've never had a problem with them not answering my emails.

We haven't supplemented with Orijen in a month now and Penny's behavior/mood continues to improve. She's no longer hiding at all, hasn't had one reactive episode since, no longer needs hours and hours of exercise, and is generally calm. I have added 5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan), 12.5mg twice daily to her meals in the last three weeks as well.

I wish there were more studies/research to explain these changes. Other than what's already been mentioned, I can't find anything .
Do you think it's because of not feeding her Orijen or because you are giving her the5-HTP?

And, have you researched that supplement well? The last I read fairly recently was that there was still some concern about its safety.
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Old January 5th, 2011, 10:12 PM
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Rainbow, the first email I sent was on the 16th of last month. I sent a follow up one yesterday. I'll post here as soon as I get a response.

We noticed a change in Penny's behavior immediately after going back to raw (after nearly a week on Orijen). All the dogs' energy levels had decreased within 24 hours after switching back to raw. I started the 5-HTP supplements about 8-9 days later and we noticed further change in Penny's behavior.

The concern you read about, is that about ESM? I've read about all I could find on it and the cause was traced back to a single manufacturer in Japan in the late 80's. A more recent theory is based on consuming excessive amounts of 5-HTP (ie. in the 1000's of mg). Penny only gets 25mg per day split in two, 1/6 of the human adult dosage. I'm planning on weaning her off in another 3-4 weeks. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old January 5th, 2011, 10:31 PM
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You keep this up LP and soon with all of your ever increasing knowledge you will be able to write some wonderful articles. Great job! You have always been very conscientious about your dogs' diets but now you are at home look at what you have accomplished!!! mf.
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Old January 6th, 2011, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
Rainbow, the first email I sent was on the 16th of last month. I sent a follow up one yesterday. I'll post here as soon as I get a response.

We noticed a change in Penny's behavior immediately after going back to raw (after nearly a week on Orijen). All the dogs' energy levels had decreased within 24 hours after switching back to raw. I started the 5-HTP supplements about 8-9 days later and we noticed further change in Penny's behavior.

The concern you read about, is that about ESM? I've read about all I could find on it and the cause was traced back to a single manufacturer in Japan in the late 80's. A more recent theory is based on consuming excessive amounts of 5-HTP (ie. in the 1000's of mg). Penny only gets 25mg per day split in two, 1/6 of the human adult dosage. I'm planning on weaning her off in another 3-4 weeks. I'll let you know how it goes.
LP, I can't remember everything the article said. I was reading stuff about depression and just remember seeing something about safety concerns regarding 5-HTP but they were also talking about human use and probably didn't want people with depression to take more than necessary. I will see if I can find the article again and post it here.

I find it very interesting about the link between a high protein diet and behaviour that you have been researching. Chase is quite hyper and we always thought it's probably because he never got to enjoy his puppyhood with all the operations and activity restrictions he had but now you have me thinking and I might just switch to a lower protein diet to see if there is any change with him.
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Old January 5th, 2011, 10:10 PM
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Concerns over essential proteins

I just re-read the starting post and I don’t think I am too far off the point, though I do plead guilty to jabbering so I’ll try to be more precise.

My point: there are proteins and there are proteins:

There are two kinds of protein conglomerations being compared, I believe. (I made the conglomeration thingi up. I’m not a biologist and don’t know the proper term outside of defining what they are):

1. Complete Protein. Meat protein is a complete protein. Meat includes all eight essential proteins which are necessary if to be used as proteins to humans. (Again don’t know about dogs and cats.)

2. Incomplete Protein. Beans, Legumes and Vegetable lack one or more of the essential proteins. An incomplete protein lacks the amino acid(s) that allow it to function as a protein in the human body. The unavailable proteins would add to the carbohydrate count.

As mentioned in one of your previous posts there are 8 essential amino acids that the human body cannot make from other foods so they must be got from ingestion. (Dunno about dogs and cats.) If even one of the essentials is missing then all the other protein bits act as carbs and are burnt as energy only and can’t be used for protein-only functions such as building cells.

So if your quest is to prove successful and valuable to your goal, then I would suspect that you want the protein count of essential proteins. and not the unessential ones which the human (again don’t know about dogs and cats- they may be able to make more or less than humans) is able to manufacture.

Here is a list of Protein from chickpeas, soybeans and beef. All foods are given in protein grams per 100 grams raw weight.

Soyabean: 36.49g protein per 100 grams weight. (Soybeans are considered by many agencies to be a source of complete protein: see below) But how much “complete protein” is particular to the soya is the question.

Chickpeas (garbanzo beans, bengal gram), mature seeds, raw 19.30g protein per 100 grams.
Chickpeas are incomplete; therefore, their protein would go to waste if not combined with something that fulfils the missing proteins.

Examples of complete proteins from beef sources.

• Beef, variety meats and by-products, brain, raw 10.86g protein per 100 grams (don’t think I would ever feed a dog brains- mad cow disease and all)
• Beef, variety meats and by-products, heart, raw 17.72g protein per 100 grams
• Beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, raw 20.36g protein per 100 grams (my dog use to have the runs when I gave her liver or heart or raw hamburger and the stuff was still blood red so haven't chanced any of this yet)
• Beef, round, outside round, bottom round, steak, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, raw 21.24g protein per 100 grams
• Beef, carcass, separable lean and fat, select, raw 17.48g protein per 100 grams
• Beef, ground, 95% lean meat / 5% fat, raw 21.41g protein per 100 grams

From Wikipedia: Soybeans
Together, oil and protein content account for about 60% of dry soybeans by weight; protein at 40% and oil at 20%. The remainder consists of 35% carbohydrate and about 5% ash. Soybean cultivars comprise approximately 8% seed coat or hull, 90% cotyledons and 2% hypocotyl axis or germ.

Soybeans are considered by many agencies to be a source of complete protein. A complete protein is one that contains significant amounts of all the essential amino acids that must be provided to the human body because of the body's inability to synthesize them. For this reason, soy is a good source of protein, amongst many others, for vegetarians and vegans or for people who want to reduce the amount of meat they eat.

How much complete protein is in dry kibble is anyone’s guess. I wouldn’t rely upon the manufacturers numbers as excluding incomplete protein from their count.

Regarding the problem with the dog pooping on the carpet, I wonder if the problem is introduction. I’m only in the 3rd day with my dog on a full BARF diet. Here tummy growled whilst sitting by me but she isn’t passing gas (her usual on a kibble diet).

At night she expects a small treat. I usually give her 3 kibbles and 3 vitamins which she quickly snarfs down. This morning, beginning of 3rd BARF day, I found she had vomited up the night treat and the kibbles where un chewed and undigested. She’s never done this before. So tonight it will be a few pieces of apple and we’ll see how that goes.

I also noticed on day two and three (today) that she pees a lot more often and greater amounts. I let her out at least 8 times yesterday and I am not sure about today because we were out and about shopping. Also, usually when she urinates theres a definite hole, about the side of a looney, in the snow. Now there is a hole but also a huge wet spot the size of a large serving plate and it takes her longer at the task which I think is because she’s emitting more fluid.

I know that when I am on Atkins and limiting my carbs, I do pass more water and more often. Possibly the looser stool is due to this factor and the dog’s system is adjusting. Sadie seemed to have to poop every time I let her out to pee the first few days but today seems more regular.

I’m sticking with the BARF diet but have back on the bones a bit. Tomorrow she will get some salmon with her chicken neck and only one bone in the afternoon.

The point on too much protein has me a little confused. There are three main foods: protein, carbohydrates (sugars) and fat. Cutting back on one means increasing one or both of the others. If you are concerned that the dog is getting too much protein, wouldn’t an alternative be to cut back on the amount of food altogether?

This is a prob I have with any new diet for my dog. How much is enough, not enough or too much. But today has been better with fewer bones and she could gladly suffer a few lost pounds.

Namaste,
mhikl

Last edited by mhikl; January 5th, 2011 at 10:14 PM. Reason: wording changed re: liver, heart etc
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