Domination

[cassingermany]

Anna keeps trying to hump our new puppy and show her whos boss. Do I let this happen or should I put a stop to it? So far, I'm putting a stop to it by just saying "Aaaaaaaaaaanna" in my motherly voice. Which means the way I say it also means "and just what do you think YOUR doing?!?!? HMMMMMMM?". She puts her head down and just walks away. I've owned 2 dogs before but Anna left Sookie alone. She really wants to dominate the puppy! If I let her, could she turn violent with her?

[mikischo]

Don't know what to advise you on this, cassingermany. I'm just bumping this thread back up so our more savvy dog people don't miss it.

[GalaxiesKuklos]

Originally Posted by cassingermany

Anna keeps trying to hump our new puppy and show her whos boss. Do I let this happen or should I put a stop to it? So far, I'm putting a stop to it by just saying "Aaaaaaaaaaanna" in my motherly voice. Which means the way I say it also means "and just what do you think YOUR doing?!?!? HMMMMMMM?". She puts her head down and just walks away. I've owned 2 dogs before but Anna left Sookie alone. She really wants to dominate the puppy! If I let her, could she turn violent with her?

humping is actions
showing her who's boss is abstract.

You are correct about the first, not the latter... unless she is using graphs? Some organizational charts perhaps?

[Choochi]

I would continue to do what you're doing especially if it's working. She is not necessarily trying to dominate the pup. Humping can mean lots of things, some times it's nothing more then a physical outlet of frustration. Maybe the puppy isn't playing enough with her or she's just unsure of what to think of her yet and is testing her out.

[cassingermany]

Originally Posted by GalaxiesKuklos

You are correct about the first, not the latter... unless she is using graphs? Some organizational charts perhaps?

What? Everything I've looked up as to why she would be doing this points to showing dominance. It's got nothing to do with sarcasm (but thanks for trying) but a way that dogs work in packs. Nothing tells me though that she could turn violent if Lily doesn't "fall in line" so to speak. So being a pet forum, I know someone else has dealt with this and what they did or what happened in the end.

Thanks to everyone who replied. :-)

[Bailey_]

Everything I've looked up as to why she would be doing this points to showing dominance

Humping is not neccessarily a sign of dominance at all. It can be a reaction out of stress, and it can also be a sign of play. There are many websites that you can read, books on dog behavior, that can further explain to you the reasons and causes of humping.

In your case, the important thing to ensure is that the puppy is not being oppressed by the older dog, as can sometimes be the case in these situations.

Continue to monitor and discourage the act, but be careful not to punish.

[cassingermany]

The way she does it is why the websites and books say its a show of dominance. She grabs her and pulls her back to her and Lily is the only dog she does it with. She is around other dogs and does not do it. I know that humping could be a sign of being excited or anxious...it's a lot of things. But it being the way she does it and only with one dog, from what "they" say, it's most likely dominance. Anna has been by herself in this house for well over a year so I can see that she sees Lily as maybe an intruder and someone to say "HEY! This is my house!" But we are working on it and I see improvement already. I guess its hard to remember to put every little detail in online.

I also did finally read today that to keep letting her do, it might just become habit so I definitely will keep stopping her without punishment.

Thank you for replying! :-)

[millitntanimist]

I find it helpful not to assume an agenda for the dog - we can never truly know what her intentions are - and, regardless, management is your best option. If it's easy to disengage her from your pup as it is, I would keep doing so (you can always have her drag a short leash so that you can gently re-direct her). Keep them separated when you are not around so that she never has the opportunity to mount her outside of your supervision, this will continue the behavior.
With a little time and patience this problem will solve itself. Once the puppy hits adolescence she will very likely start retaliating (as an adult would) and it should stop.
Spaying will also probably help.

I know it's a bit of a frustrating and silly problem, hang in there

Here are a few articles that deal with dominance theory, maybe they will also be of some interest?

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com...d-as-dominance
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

[millitntanimist]

Originally Posted by cassingermany

But it being the way she does it and only with one dog, from what "they" say, it's most likely dominance. Anna has been by herself in this house for well over a year so I can see that she sees Lily as maybe an intruder and someone to say "HEY! This is my house!"

Also, they way (it sounds like) your sources are labeling dominance is incorrect. The behavioral dynamic of dominance and submission is not a character trait (in the context of a group of animals it can be used as a label for social organization - in most instances, though, that social organization is based on breeding and family structure i.e. father and mother are "dominant," they have the most social freedom - but not as a method for establishing a pecking order), it is a ritualized method of preventing aggression around resources.
In order for the mounting to be related to dominance specifically, it must be in regards to a specific resource. Dog's ideas of possession are different than ours. They do not see physical spaces as being "theirs," only objects or resources that they are touching, have in their mouths, or are less than a few feet away from. When your dog leaves the room, that bone she was chewing on is fair game for anyone, she has relinquished her possession. Dogs do not have a catalogue in their minds of all the objects they "own" the way we do (dogs don't have houses or keep possessions) and they do not use dominance to obtain resources in the abstract. Your dog will never use dominance (or submission for that matter) to actively control another dog or person, that's not what it's for. There are no absolutes with dogs, things are fluid. One dog may want first access to food, while another the prime sleeping space on the couch. By the definition of "dominance" each of them is therefore dominant in that context, regardless of "pecking order" but one is not dominant over the other and therefore in control of the other.
Using dominance as a synonym for control is a misnomer, it is simply one half of the dynamic. In fact, (as Mybirdisevil already mentioned) many animals utilize submission, not dominance, to gain access to resources (or "control"). There are two types of submission: active and passive. Passive submission offers distancing signals to other dogs, active submission entices or attempts to engage them. I know one very assertive Coonhound that practices extreme active submission that overwhelms our Shiba-Malinois who offers what are labled as "dominant" body signals (standing tall, ears and weight pitched forward, tail high). The Coonhound "submits" so vigorously that she can take any resource from Moro without any aggressive signals from either of them. The Coonhound is more submissive but she is pushier.
I think it's fair to put dogs in a category of pushy/assertive or shy/reserved because those are personality types, but both types can utilize either end of the behavior dynamic in social interaction with other dogs or to gain resources.

In my opinion, bad behavior is just bad behavior. When Anna was vocalizing or snapping at your pup around the food bowl (for example) it was just like a child throwing a temper tantrum ("back off, I don't want to share"). When you showed her that that behavior was unacceptable, it stopped working for her, it began to extinguish itself.

[3 Laughing Dogs]

It IS a sign of dominance and what your doing is correct but what I'd also do is "claim" the puppy also. This will show Anna that the puppy is not hers but yours. When this act is going on, continue what you do but then put yourself between the two with the puppy behind you and Anna in front of you. Gradually take steps towards her until she submits. Don't stop until she sits or lays down in submission but make sure you always infront of her facing her. Follow her if she walks away or ignores you. The second she submits though, walk away and continue with the day as though nothing happened!! Or you can reward the action with affection or a treat. I'd prefer the first cause in a doh's world, dogs don't give dogs treats for rewards. By doing this, you are re enforcing good, or positive, behavior

[Stinkycat]

Depends on what is going on BEFORE she mounts her.

Dogs will mount in an excited mind state. And does NOT always mean dominance (scientifically proven).

DO NOT use corrections, this does nothing unless your correction is harsh enough to leave a lasting imprint in her brain - but this could also have a negative impression on the pup (which you don't want).

Keep track of your older dog's body language right before it happens, what is going on? Is the puppy doing nothing? Is the puppy running around?

You need to catch her JUST before she goes to mount the pup and use a positive interrupter (such as a low whistle, kissy noise). Please condition your dog to a positive interrupter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8 .

[SamIam]

My assessment of your situation is that this IS dominance. It is natural for the old dog to try to instill in the new one from the start that she ranks above the new dog. In the end, when both are adults, they will work it out between themselves, and sometimes it is the new dog who "takes over." Not all old dogs do it, not all new dogs initiate it, but no reason to worry that you are seeing it now.

Most likely you would see the behaviour when your new puppy is demanding or receiving something very valuable such as treats or attention. Humping is a normal and non-aggressive communication between your two dogs, and there are many other harmless displays of dominance and submission that you will continue to see displayed between the two dogs in play and throughout their lives.

Let dogs be dogs.

[3 Laughing Dogs]

Originally Posted by Stinkycat

Depends on what is going on BEFORE she mounts her.

Dogs will mount in an excited mind state. And does NOT always mean dominance (scientifically proven).

DO NOT use corrections, this does nothing unless your correction is harsh enough to leave a lasting imprint in her brain - but this could also have a negative impression on the pup (which you don't want).

Keep track of your older dog's body language right before it happens, what is going on? Is the puppy doing nothing? Is the puppy running around?

You need to catch her JUST before she goes to mount the pup and use a positive interrupter (such as a low whistle, kissy noise). Please condition your dog to a positive interrupter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8 .

Dogs will mount in an excited minded state. - excitement is a negative (dominant) sign that can be read by other dogs as an aggreessive dominance (evey situation brings different reactions). So that leads back to the domination position the dog is taking. Fight or flight are the FIRST things that a dog determines. Then it desides if its going to ignoee it or face it and which position it will take being dominant or submissive.

[3 Laughing Dogs]

That being said, there is many different things that can be factoring in that you may not be seeing or things you may not think is relevant to the situation. A good thing to do is to educate yourself on canine body language. The web is a great resource and can be very helpful in getting you alittle more intune with what is going on with your dogs and others.

[Stinkycat]

Originally Posted by 3 Laughing Dogs

Dogs will mount in an excited minded state. - excitement is a negative (dominant) sign that can be read by other dogs as an aggreessive dominance (evey situation brings different reactions). So that leads back to the domination position the dog is taking. Fight or flight are the FIRST things that a dog determines. Then it desides if its going to ignoee it or face it and which position it will take being dominant or submissive.

Excitement is not a dominant behaviour, excitement is considered a stressor in dogs (there is good stress and bad stress), over-excitement to the point where the dog cannot calm down is a negative stress as this can be redirected and turn into aggressive behaviour. This is usually if the dog has a past of any aggressive behaviours, it's very rare that a happy go lucky dog that is over excited will turn aggressive without a trigger.

Aggressive dominance is fear based - these dogs bite first ask questions later. The dog is not biting the pup.

The fight or flight reactions are used when the dog perceives a situation to be life threatening. A dog will act out aggressively (biting, lunging, growling) or avoid (flight).

SamIam - completely right, dog's do NOT try to take ownership of one another.

[millitntanimist]

Originally Posted by 3 Laughing Dogs

It IS a sign of dominance and what your doing is correct but what I'd also do is "claim" the puppy also. This will show Anna that the puppy is not hers but yours.

As I said earlier, dominance is not a synonym for control, dogs control resources not each other.

Originally Posted by 3 Laughing Dogs

I'd prefer the first cause in a doh's world, dogs don't give dogs treats for rewards.

Dog's "in the wild" do not put leashes on each other, dictate each other's bowel movements, limit how they interact with their environment (e.g. chewing), or ask one another to perform arbitrary behaviors (like sit). Your dog knows that you are not a dog, it has evolved for for 15,000 years to treat you like a human.

[SamIam]

They control resources, but they do not believe in private ownership of them. They establish a hierarchical relationship and top dog gets first pick of food, toys, resting area, etc. My concern is that is the dogs are prevented from displaying normal harmless communication and establishing a proper relationship between themselves it can turn nasty later. This is not a situation where two stranger-dogs are sizing each other up and about to start a fight, they are family/pack members who will both be more comfortable if they are allowed to establish a relationship. It is the equals who tend to fight one another. If you side WITH the more dominant dog, you will have a happier safer family.

[millitntanimist]

Originally Posted by SamIam

They establish a hierarchical relationship and top dog gets first pick of food, toys, resting area, etc.

I don't know if that's true. Dog social relationships are a lot more fluid than their wolf cousins. Dogs don't form packs like wolves, a wolf pack is a family unit. They are groups of monogamous hunters. The "alpha" male and female are the breeding pair and the rest is made up of their juvenile or adult children - all of whom work to raise the next generation of pups (in fact, since the pups are offered all of the best resources and have a great deal of social freedom, I think there's a convincing argument to be made that they are dominant ). A wolf hierarchy is naturally more rigid because otherwise offspring would start breeding with parents and that makes for bad genetics. The size of a wolf pack is also directly dependent on the type of game available. Wolves in areas that only support small game do not form packs, there is too much competition.
In contrast, domestic dogs are non-monogamous scavengers. They occasionally form loose associational groups but that is not their "state of nature" unless they are beholden to a food source that requires it. They do not form groups that pool resources to raise young. Since almost all feral dog populations exist around human settlements and garbage dumps there is no need for a hunting group to form - again, too much competition for resources.
My point is coming, I swear :P
It is my experience that dogs in houses function much the same way. They do not form rigid "pack" hierarchies. One may take preference in food sources (we feed out dogs from puzzle toys), one may take first access to toys, and one may get the best sleeping spot. It's more of a free-for-all and the order is always subject to change. No one animal commands all resources all the time even if one animal is deferred to more often because they are more assertive in claiming said resources.

Originally Posted by SamIam

If you side WITH the more dominant dog, you will have a happier safer family.

In our house the best behaved dog gets first access to resources - this means that everyone behaves very well .

[SamIam]

My dogs are a pack. They are, however, a pack of dogs and not a pack of wolves.