[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

I am now joining this thread as the owner of a newly diagnosed CRF cat, one week ago today. My 11 year old Marshall.

Hi OtisIsMyCat, welcome to the forum & the CRF cat club

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

So... I have a quick question... how is 0.2% for a phosphorus level? Unfortunately the K/D wet is by far the lowest on all the lists but I don't like their overall ingredients. So I'm trying to find a safe alternative.

Also, is it true that it's actually the phosphorus that is damaging to CRF cats? And, not necessarily the protein itself?

THANKS!!

When looking at the phosphorus levels on the can/site it needs to be converted to dry matter basis, as the formula below shows, the moisture content of the food is crucial as well as the phos:

100-moisture = dry matter; phos/dry matter * 100 = dry matter phosphorus

As an example Evo 95% Vension: 100-69.8 = 30.2; 0.62/30.2 * 100 = 2.05% dry matter phosphorus = way too high

As an example Evo 95% Chicken & Turkey: 100-73.9 = 26.1; 0.23/26.1 * 100 = 0.88% dry matter phosphorus = Good value

Phosphorus

http://www.felinecrf.org/just_diagnosed.htm#phosphorus
Phosphorus and calcium are minerals which are important for nerve function, muscle contraction and bone formation. A healthy body has a natural balance between levels of phosphorus and calcium.

CRF kidneys can no longer excrete phosphorus properly so levels of phosphorus rise (hyperphosphataemia), which can then adversely affect the cat's calcium levels, with potentially serious consequences (see secondary hyperparathyroidism).

Not only that, but high phosphorus levels may make the CRF progress faster and can make a cat feel lousy. So controlling phosphorus levels is one of the most important steps in managing CRF and helping your cat feel better.

Protein

http://www.felinecrf.org/nutritional...ts.htm#protein
A healthy cat needs around 30% of its calorie intake to be protein, and since cats are obligate carnivores (which means that they need to eat meat in order to survive), virtually all of that must be animal protein. Protein contains essential amino acids which are necessary for maintaining muscle, but it also creates a large amount of waste, which is processed by the kidneys in the form of urea (BUN). Since urea/BUN levels tend to rise in a CRF cat because the kidneys are working less effectively, many vets recommend a diet low in protein so as to minimise the levels of urea/BUN which are produced.

However, there is a lot of controversy about how useful low protein diets are for CRF cats, and when they should be introduced. Many vets recommend a low protein diet immediately; but this is not necessarily a good move. Cats need a relatively high amount of protein in their diets, compared to say, dogs or humans; and if protein is reduced too early, it can cause weight loss, raised liver enzymes, and may in some cases contribute to the development of anaemia. This is particularly true of those CRF cats who leak protein in their urine (proteinuria), leading to low protein levels in the blood. Having said that, the low protein prescription diets claim to have sufficient protein for cats at all stages of CRF.

Low protein diets are also of concern for cats with metabolic acidosis, because studies of rats and humans with renal failure show that "acidosis may limit the ability of patients to adapt to dietary protein restrictions" (Nutrition and renal function in cats and dogs: acid-base, electrolytes and renal failure (1999) Polzin DJ, Osbourne CA, James K Supplement to Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practising Veterinarian 21 11(K)).

It is not yet certain whether acidosis also affects cats in this way, but it seems reasonable to suspect that it does, given the cat's relatively high requirement for protein.

Wellness has Turkey, Chicken and Beef & Chicken which have good numbers all under 1.2% dm phos

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

Here's what I know of Marshall's initial diagnosis. I only obtained his BUN and creatinine. That first 48 hours were such a blur I never thought to get anymore results further than those two.

Upon diagnosis his BUN was at 70, creatinine was at 1500. After 24 hours of IV those figures went down to 55 and 1100 respectively. After 48 hours of IV they were down to 33 and 690.

Ouch. It sounds like initially it was acute renal failure that has, due to the high levels, lead into chronic renal failure.

http://www.felinecrf.org/links_and_r..._renal_failure

With ARF even though the situation is critical at first, the cat will not always present all usual symptoms, you might just see reduced urination, increased drinking symptoms that can look like other things.

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

Turns out nearly his entire mouth was in ulceration as a result of the high levels of toxins that had built up in his body from his deteriorating kidneys.

Could be the excess blood toxins, could also be a result of infection or external ingested toxic substances.

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

The cat food I'm referring to is "Felidae" Chicken & Rice. The exact product is HERE. If you scroll a bit you'll see the guaranteed analysis as well.

I only bought two cans of Felidae but haven't opened them yet because I have several K/D wets left. I also didn't want to feed him anything different until those with more knowledge on the subject can advise me. I don't think I can approach my vet because I highly doubt she'd endorse this brand as opposed to K/D.

Another option I found was HALO brand - the one supported by Ellen Degeneres. Their protein levels for wet can be as low as 4.2% depending on the flavour. There is no phosphorus level indicated though and I have emailed them but no response, yet.

The numbers for that variety of Felidae is okay dm 1.16%, for the Halo I need to see the phos numbers to tell.

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

Next Wed I bring him in for his follow-up checkup and blood analysis.

Ask for a copy of the full blood & urine results

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

If it was something outside, Otis should have been affected too, no? And why now?

Not necessarily. If they are allowed free roam outside & not just out supervised on a harness they could've been anywhere in your neighbourhood or the next. One may have wandered away from the other.

Lilies are especially nephrotoxic but popular & pretty lots of people putting in gardens. Someone working on their car spills antifreeze - it is very sweet tasting which is attractive to cats. Most people think antifreeze poisoning will only occur in winter but some people do change out antifreeze when they do regular maintance or have a leak. I have heard of some free standing basketball hoops recommending to fill the base with antifreeze so it won't freeze & also for ballist

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

I do believe though that usually at initial diagnosis, if the cat is really in a crash, the kidney functioning will be extra low because at that point they are so dehydrated that the percentage can be much worse than after they are stabilized. After I get the results from his Wed blood test I will ask the vet what his kidneys are functioning at.

This may be true, same with the blood values, once the IV fluids have flushed much of the toxins out & starts to correct the imbalance the numbers will revert to pre crisis numbers - though it will not necessarily be close to/or in normal range.

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

I'm going to look into the Evo Venison or Beef. I hate keeping him on this K/D garbage. Especially since I know the primary reason that food is even endorsed by the clinic is because some rep went there and made a good sell.

Evo only if 95% varities but not vension or duck - those two are way too high. Beef is 1.23% dm I would feed this occasionally but not as a staple, 95% Turkey & Chicken is good at 0.88%.

Originally Posted by OtisIsMyCat

It was funny though because after getting free he just ran straight to one of his water bowls and lapped water on his own. He's very independent apparently.

............

Marshy... for bragging rights. ha

I found that as well, my grrl would head right for the water dish after her fluids

So cute