[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by Mia101

'Binders are used IF NECESSARY'. Doesn't make sense to MAKE it necessary by feeding too much phosphorous

Depending on blood phosphorus numbers, she may need a phos binder even on the vet rx food.

Originally Posted by Mia101

She is not dehydrated, so the issue of fluids has been put off until next month, when we check to see if the food is helping.

Cats at stage 4 renal failure should be on fluid therapy. Fluid therapy is not just to combat dehydration but also will reduce the BUN & Creatinine numbers as it flushes these toxins from the blood & kidneys.

http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_...ow_bad_numbers

I have found that most conventional vets are not pro-active enough with renal disease, instead opting the wait & see approach.

Has your vet mentioned any of the Vetoquinol supplements? http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/pages/pro_renal.html

Originally Posted by Mia101

I already said that meat (to my understanding) produces a waste material that Purina is wanting to avoid. better to get alternate protein sources than produce more waste the kidneys can't handle.

Cats cannot effciently digest vegetable based proteins the rate is 50-72% whereas meat & eggs is 75-98%. Most of the vegetable matter is removed as waste material and not absorbed.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...2615&SourceID=
Older animals tend to require a higher dietary protein level in general when compared to their younger counterparts. Protein also adds palatability to the food so that if we try to restrict protein too much we may end up with a pet who will not eat at all.

http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm
There are varying opinions in the veterinary community as to whether low protein food is effective in the management of feline CRF. Some experts believe that any benefit from eating low protein food may be from the lower content of phosphorous contained in the food rather than the low protein itself. Furthermore, some believe that a low protein diet contributes to weakness and muscle wasting, two very common symptoms in CRF cats.

Originally Posted by Mia101

I do not think that an 18 year old cat with kidney disease is going to live long enough for that to matter much.

I'm doing what I can to help my nearly 19 year old CRF cat live for several more quality years.

Originally Posted by Mia101

Sorry but you guys go a little too far with the insistence on canned food at any cost and some other things.

What does a feral cat eat? Mice, birds, lizards and bugs not dried corn, dry rice and wheat stalks. Basic porportion of a mouse is roughly 68% water, compare that to the 8-11% in dry food, canned food is 75-78%.

Originally Posted by Mia101

Research does not support that feeding high phosphorous foods and then using binders and then using things to mitigate binders is better than feeding low phosphorus dry. Especially with a good drinker. I'd like to see proof, not supposition, that cats cannot drink enough.

From Royal Canin http://www.petngarden.com/cats/cats12.php

The main water loss is urinary loss. With a dryfood, about half of the water consumed is eliminated through this way, 2/3 with canned food.

The cat have a reputation to be a "small drinker". It is because he is able to concentrate his urine very much (average density: 1045 compared to 1015 in dog and man). But if the concentration of the urine is too high, there is a higher risk of crystals precipitation and urinary stones formation. Then, the cat must be encouraged to drink.

http://cats.about.com/od/waterforcats/f/waterneeds.htm
Water Needs Depends on Diet
Cats' body tissues consist of about 67% water. Coincidentally, that is approximately the percentage of water in the prey they catch and eat in the wild. In contrast, dry cat food contains around 10% water, and canned cat food around 78%. Therefore, a cat on an all-dry food diet would obviously require more supplemental drinking water than a cat on an exclusive raw or canned food diet. Likewise, a cat on a combination of dry and canned cat food also needs more drinking water

Originally Posted by Mia101

I AM going to feed canned food that is low in phosphorous when I can find some that I know is and that she likes.

I know Growler said some varieties of wellness are, but I can't find the post with the actual values. Our idea of what is low enough differs.

Below .5 is what my research says. For 6 months I fed with 1.0 or slightly higher due to being told on here that is the target. Where did that come from?

In my reading I found that 1.0 being alright is only if the cat will not eat anything below .5, and only in early stages.

Purina NF canned dry matter protein is 30% dry matter phos is .78% with 77% moisture, it is likely to taste very close to the dry you are feeding her.

As close to or below 1% dry matter was recommended by my previous conventional vet as most rx canned foods are around .5-1% dry matter phos. The 1% dm phos value is where the rx foods tend to top out at.

http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods...scription_food
Whichever you feed, ideally, as mentioned by Dr Scott Brown in Management of feline chronic renal failure (1998) Waltham Focus 8 (3), you want your cat to eat food with less than 0.5% but you also need your cat to eat, so if necessary you may have to have a less ambitious goal, at least to start with, of less than 1% phosphorus

And if your cat will eat that slightly higher phos food in later stages you add a phos binder if necessary. So many people have trouble getting their CRF cats to eat anything at all, so if you have to feed a higher phos w/a binder then that's what you do.

I would rather feed a slightly higher phos level food with quality ingredients than a lower phos food with lower quality ingredients.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....203#post485203

Originally Posted by Mia101

Again, unless you are a vet or a nutritionist who specializes in renal disease, I do not think you should state your opinions so forcefully based on internet research.

It's misleading to people who come here knowing nothing and believe you because you are so emphatic and cite a couple of studies.

Vets do not know all there is to know about nutrition. My cat was on a rx "sensitivity" diet because the vet at the time said her soft poop was because she had a "sensitive stomach" instead of finding out what she was reacting to. Guess what food was recalled for toxic ingredients? yup that very rx food. Once I switched her to a holistic high quality canned food her poop issues cleared up.

I have a CRF cat, I have been living with/researching this disease since April 2007. Before/at the time my grrl was eating a RC prescription vet food that was recalled due to toxic melamine that was confirmed by RC to have caused her CRF. My grrl has been raw fed since Dec 2007, she is on fluid therapy & renal support supplements and her numbers are better than your cats' are .

My opinions are not just based on internet research I'm living it.

Originally Posted by Mia101

protein 25%. moisture 11%

dry matter protein of this dry food is 28% the minimum requirement for healthy adult cats is 26% http://maxshouse.com/nutrition/aafco...t_profiles.htm

Good luck with your cat