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Old March 24th, 2011, 08:31 PM
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Criosphynx Criosphynx is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Not at all...very well said. I can't punch holes into that at all.
The Key to what you said was 'watch those that have mastered it'. I keep saying and pushing is that the only way to learn is to keep an open mind. I cannot say that I would completely follow you as I also incorporate other methods as well. I personally could not be a one way trainer. But you have me very curious and I really wish I could attend one of your lessons. I really mean that.
Thank you. I must admit I wasn't expecting that sort of reply! Glad to see we can discuss this openmindedly

I just feel too many people judge "positive only" trainers by the few people they see doing it incorrectly, or doing it poorly. The people doing it 'well" are often not out in public, they are world famous trainers, many working in zoos and aquaria, out of view. Or people like me and many of my online friends, who are in rescue or don't want to compete with dogs, so once again, out of the limelight. I rescue special needs dogs, only 2 of my 5 dogs are physically sound. One is elderly, and the other is a pit bull who still has potential if I want to use it. I was training the reactive dog for agility and he was diagnosed with luxating patella (both knees) so we'll have to go after som'thing different to show a reactive rescue can be trained with PR and still title.... sorry OT a bit.

Originally Posted by akaJenT View Post
This was invaluable when I had a HUGE Rottweiler that growled at my son when he was learning to crawl. The SECOND he did that, I flipped him and let him know there was NO WAY that was going to happen. He never did that again and turned out to be an amazing nurturing protective dog that watched over all the neighborhood kids, especially when they toddled "through the woods" of our joined back yards, "hunting for bears".

If he had continued to growl and threaten, he would have been gone. It was imperative he realized he had to quit that fast.
yes, you supressed the growling behavior. This had two possible outcomes

dog never growls again, never bites


dog never growls and begins to bite without warning

the first one is a product of a dog that would have not biten anyway, and the second is a what you hear about on the news. "the dog bit without warning". To be honest, you did yourself a dangerous disservice. Your dog could have easily been in the second catagory.

Originally Posted by GalaxiesKuklos View Post
Well said, too bad I can't give you a "like' or "rep" points for this. I find that most people who deride non-aversive training are really admitting to their own incompetence but blaming the tool when they should be blaming the craftsman.

PS. The only thing I would change in your post would be changing method to principle. The principles of learning are universal, the methods are the application of those principles.
Hahah thank you... forgive my mush mush of terms. I like yours better.

Originally Posted by akaJenT View Post
like I said, there are mountains of books by credentialed "professionals" claiming that spanking a child only breeds violence. The article you posted was "based" on an artical by Dr. Dunbar, and yet it's got a lot of claims that look exactly opposite of what I've observed through my life. I lived 22 years in the mountains and had a dog that ran with a pack...just because someone has a credential and someone bases an article on something he wrote, then slaps it on the internet, is no reason to disbelieve what you've witnessed and trade it for beliefs of the credentialed professional.

Just my .02
you forget that these professionals you so readily scoff at have forgotten more about dogs that many of us can every hope to know. They HAVE experience. Often 1000x more that the average person and more than you I'd wager (not a jab, just saying). Jean donaldson worked with hundreds if not thousands of dogs at the SF SPCA and she holds the belief that alpha rolls and growling suppression are not a good idea, and downright harmful. She holds a PhD as does Dunbar ON TOP of that experience, not in spite of it.

as far as spanking. Not sure what to say to that. Do you know what "fallout" is? A method can "work" but thats not always the objective...there is falllout to punishment. Sure I can beat a dog with a brick (or a kid) to keep them quiet...OR I can reward them for being quiet when I ask. Both methods "work". But one has fallout.

Last edited by Criosphynx; March 24th, 2011 at 09:02 PM.
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