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Old January 23rd, 2009, 08:20 AM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
This is already taking a turn to being " No one should breed"
I think we really need to examine COE.
Each breed club has a COE which reaches everything from breeding to rescue
Example from Canadian Tibetan Mastiff Society

1. Abide by and uphold the principles of the Constitution and By-laws of the Canadian Tibetan Mastiff Society and of the Canadian Kennel Club.

2. Provide proper nutrition, exercise, regular grooming and veterinary care to maintain their Tibetan Mastiffs in good health.

3. Never abandon or place their Tibetan Mastiff in a shelter, pound, SPCA or other Humane Society. If circumstances dictate that they can no longer keep or care for their Tibetan Mastiffs, members shall make every effort to return them to the breeder or find a suitable new home for them.

4. Never supply a Tibetan Mastiff to a pet shop or commercial dealer or offer a dog as a prize for raffles, auctions or similar events.

5. Demonstrate good sportsmanship when competing in or spectating at Tibetan Mastiff Specialties or other dog related events in Canada or abroad.

6. Help and offer assistance to newcomers to the breed and the club.

In addition to the above, CTMS MEMBER BREEDERS shall:

1. Ensure that they have the necessary time, facilities and resources to properly care for the bitch and expected litter.

2. Make every effort to breed only dogs that conform to the CKC Misc. Class breed standard in order to maintain or improve the desired qualities of the Tibetan Mastiff.

3. Breed only healthy, mature Tibetan Mastiffs of sound temperament.

4. Breed no more than 4 litters from each female, with the first litter bred after 2 years of age or in second heat, skipping a season between most litters.

5. Breed only dogs that have OFA or OVC clearance for Hip Dysplasia (or clearance from another recognized certified organization).

6. It is highly recommended that all breeding stock be CERF'd prior to being bred.

7. Consider the placement of puppies carefully and screen prospective buyers to find the most suitable homes.

8. Only release healthy puppies to new homes after they are at least 8 weeks old and have been properly socialized.

9. Provide the purchaser with a written contract and accurate health, breeding and all appropriate registration records at the time of the sale.

10. Provide the purchaser with details of proper feeding, grooming, training, general care and advisable veterinary care.

11. Be willing to take back or assist in finding a new home for a Tibetan Mastiff they have sold if circumstances dictate that the owner can no longer care for the dog.

12. Be willing to assist any owner to whom they have sold a Tibetan Mastiff to for as long as they are a breeder.

13.To be willing to reasonably mentor/assist any owner to whom they have sold show or breeding stock in the areas of showing and/or breeding to the best of their ability.
And now for ATMA, which I am not a member of but still think the COE applies and prefer some of their ethics so therefore in the event I do ever breed Karma, I will be adhereing to them.
I won't copy and paste it as its quite long and detailed.

I don't see breeders who are following each and every one of these "rules" as being the problem, its impossible to be part of the problem if you are a strict COE breeder.
As for who you sell your pups to, well that is a whole other ball of wax. You can't theoretically trust anyone to be as strict on COE as you may be however, this is the reason for applications and checks. If a breeder is strict on who may and may not purchase a pup from them and are thorough on screening, odds are in their favor that they will find suitable LIFE LONG homes.

No COE breeder will have pups listed on the internet on places like Kijiji or Craigslist as there ARE LONG waiting lists for pups.
Karma's breeder has a list that could easily cover 2.5 litters, so, the best she can do is pick out who will be the best for the pups and for the others, sorry, they have the option of staying on the list until another litter becomes available, or a rescue comes through that may be a good pet match, or find a new breeder and hop on that waiting list ( which she may point you to, depending on how she feels about you as a TM owner).

You're not going to find many BYB of TM's, and the wait for them is a long one. Unless of course you are willing to pay upwards of $5000 from one american "breeder" who has an amazing smoke and mirrors website and seems ethical. ONce you get talking to this "breeder" you quickly learn the truth. 80+ pups a year... there is no way this breeder can take back each and every one of them. Clearly not a COE breeder or even a member of ATMA. But being that this breeder was one of the first and does have plenty of credetials to look ethical, it does take EDUCATION to know who you are purchasing from.
And this also shows why picking breeders you should be looking for ones that do belong to the breed club in your county ( or the country you are looking to buy from) there are reasons that some breeders who look good are not members. Either they have been suspended from the club, or never bothered to join because they could not comply with the COE.

Another common trap is falling for " they show their dogs, they must be ethical" true for the most part, but in the past year and a half of talking to and purchasing from breeders, you quickly learn that no matter how prestigious the shows they compete in, says nothing about ethics. My co-own I Had is an example of this... all titled dogs in her pedigree, but not knowing subtle red flags to look for I feel that purchasing that pup resulted in more heart ache than anything.
Even a Westminister competitor could have poor COE.
I imagine as show exhibitors and breeders the potential for getting greedy is very real as well as easy.
You come to a website like this one and insist on a getting a puppy for a breeder, the first thing that is said is " go to a show and talk to breeders" the one who is far too willing to sell a pup or retired show dog is clearly a good breeder to research into, not many breeders will make a descision on you at a show ( unless you have been talking to them for some time and they just needed to see you and question you in person to see how you respond to questions on the spot). There could be skeletons in their closet if they are willing to sell on the spot.

Buying a pup from a breeder is a very complex process, both the purchaser and the breeder need to be equally as careful.
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne

Last edited by erykah1310; January 23rd, 2009 at 08:29 AM. Reason: added more and don't trust my internet connection to have all this relying on it.