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Old April 8th, 2012, 07:48 PM
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mhikl mhikl is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Is the perfect Diet for Carnivores Similar?

Love4himies, excellent points. This has been a heavy slog and I shall be returning to clean up some of my points.

1. Yes, low in carbs, definitely. I am torn between the idea of increasing fat over protein, but am leaning towards increasing the fat. - more follows. Your points on fat are important. What is the differences? I have read that butyric acid found in butter is an important fat for our heart muscles. Coconut oil, palm oil, mother’s milk and butter have medium chain fatty acid (MCFA) (ordered from highest to lowest) with many benefits. (strangely, D’Adamo doesn’t find it beneficial for any blood type.)

2. Cats/dogs burying food & bones. I am guessing from what we have both read about the rancid fish that there must be beneficial properties from what we often assume is bad for us. My suspicions are that there may be a difference between anaerobic rotten things (without oxygen) and aerobic rotting which (again I can only speculate on) I speculate takes place with the rotting processes of cheeses, pheasant and buried animal stores. (I am now curious if my Sadie would bury some of her bones and meat if I fed her outside and she had more than she could finish.) Point: I have heard about old day farmers becoming used to rancid butter and then actually letting butter go rancid because it was found tasty. This worries me. Is it that we and out pets can become accustomed to foods that are naturally bad, and therefore normally repulsive to us.

3. I will read your points on blubber and the site listed. Looks very promising. Curious to know if there are sources that sell for this interesting fat.

4. The lean meat of the buck: Good point. Remember, there must be a lot of fat in the bones, I suspect, and the brain. Will have to see if I (or you or anyone else reading all this) can find evidence for how much fat is in a healthy wild buck, say. Protein can be converted into carbohydrates. I think the process to fat is - proteing -> carbs -> fat. I know that sugars (carbs) not immediately used are converted to fat (triglycerides) and that fat cannot be converted to anything other than used for energy.
Question on this: A very skinny wild animal being eaten by a carnivore: Will the carnivore eat as much protein as possible? If so, would this be harmful to its health- would the carnivore suffer diarrhoea and possibly vomiting*? Would the carnivore eat only enough for the moment and search out other feeds that may have more fat, but return as it needed more energy from the food protein. (remembering that it can convert protein to carbs (not sure if the conversion to fat is direct or indirect from the carbs being converted?)
* I have witnessed two occasions when two different dogs vomited up heavy loads of chicken fat and skin they had just eaten. They then walked away from it. Would the same thing happen with too much protein?

Love4himies, your experience with the buck would make a great short story, expanded by detail and observation. I know I would find it fascinating.

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We Are All Animals—Thoughts on Personal & Pet Nutrition
I have added explanations of a personal nature of my nutritional diet experiments which may seem off topic but it is all a part of my studies on this issue. I know there is far more information from others that could help us come to discover the best ways to meet the needs of out pets and possibly ourselves.

Is Fat Bad!
We all hear about how fat is bad for both human and for out pets. But is it? Is over feeding our dogs and cats on protein deleterious to their health? Therefore I am forming an hypothesis from which to base our discussions. Not everyone will do or have tried what I am going to be doing for myself and my senior dog, but I hope anyone who has experience and/or has found scientific information on the effects of a high fat BARF diet on cats and dogs would be willing to share their findings.
I propose that the fear of fat has muddied our thinking on the virtues of natural animal fats in our and our pets lives.
I propose that it is heavy carbohydrate based diets that are deleterious to natural carnivores, human and animal alike.
I propose that within the confines of a strict fat/protein diet that eliminates commercial carbohydrates, the best health can be found.

Personal: Dog Nature
From my experience, reading and observation, I do believe (know), but have no rigorous, scientific based proof, that a low carb diet is best for me, for dogs and for cats (a species most likely to be a strict carnivore or a strictly biological carnivory when the food is not manipulated by chemicals or otherwise substantially influenced to override their natural senses of taste and smell).

*I have read another point of view, Paul Bragg (1895-1976) experiment of putting his dogs on a vegetarian diet. Bragg claimed to have been born in 1881 and his vegan followers claim he died from his lungs filling up with water after a water skiing accident at the age of 95. He died of a heart attack while giving a lecture, age 81. It is this kind of nonsense that confuses the study of health and nutrition. Let honest study prevail.

Personal: Nutritional Experiments
I try to feel and think about how my body reacts to individual foods. Ones I patently dislike or feel “off” with, I stop using. (I used to have one feed of Brussels sprouts a week even though I have hated them from childhood. I had been told they were “good for me”. Then i found out in Eat Right that they were very bad for O bloods and I have never eaten even one sprout since.) I figure that we should all learn to listen to out bodies and ignore the commercial media. I was amazed with the correlation of foods on D’Adamo’s list for O’s to my natural preferences. I gained a greater respect for natural instinct.

In practiced meditation we learn to listen to our body’s reactions and senses’ response to external stimulus. It is why I am not inclined to eat junk foods.

Dog Nature: Omnivorous Nature
Is it natural for a dog to eat an omnivorous diet? For example, a friend’s dog, Sailor, did not take to raw broccoli. When my dog was around and I threw a piece of broccoli to her, the other dog became more interested. I threw a piece to both dogs. Sailor toyed with the broccoli but left it lie. My dog kept eating the pieces I threw her. I threw another piece to a place so Sailor had to move to inspect it. She did so and Sadie swooped in and grabbed the other uneaten piece of broccoli. Then Sailor ate the piece she had before her. Now Sailor will eat whatever broccoli is tossed to her, even when Sadie’s not around. Is this natural? Sadie even eats banana pieces and I have never had a dog before who would eat bananas. Sailor won’t eat bananas no matter how I present them, Sadie present or not.

So, is broccoli good for dogs? Does Sadie only eat broccoli because she will eat anything? Is Sailor’s inclination to not eat broccoli and bananas natural and based upon her instinct that these food sources are not nutritionally in her best interest? Are some foods beneficial to some dogs but not to others; i.e., bananas good for Sadie but not for Sailor?

Dog Nature: Carnivorous Nature
I have read that dog’s have 17? blood types. I suspect that there has to be foods that benefit or distress each blood type. I am just trying to find the best nutrition for my senior dog using my understanding from my own body and her responses to food experiments as well as trying to be aware of what affects her most positively. I suspect we are both carnivores but have been influenced by artificial environments. I have finally given up all milk products. Similarly, Sadie has to be watched or she will eat any garbage she finds on walks along human paths, no matter how full she is.

New Pups: BARF after Weaning-Commercial Free Lifestyle
Would a dog raised after weaning (6-8 weeks with her mum) on BARF be more inclined to follow its natural instincts?

It would be interesting to observe a pup’s natural tendencies and preferences to animal parts. —When laid out for its choice, would the puppy go for the salmon first or the beef? With the choice of a marrow mass scooped from bones and available meat chunks, which would most interest the pup?

What would be the health and life-span different results between a commercial diet and a pure high fat BARF diet, a) meat, b) bone and c) organs? How would the pup’s energy levels and demeanour differ? What would be the difference in its poop -colour smell, form, size; the consistency, ease or force of evacuation, the colour of the expelled poop after a day, two days under the sun; what would be the difference in how quickly the poops disintegrate, etc.?

Next, what would be the comparative reactions to five days on one food source: beef, then salmon, then pork, etc.

* For my personal study, this will come with my next pup.

Personal:Ornish experience
I have followed Atkins most of my adult life and then in 2000, for four months I experimented with Dean Ornish’s extreme low fat diet plan and my blood tests went through the roof to danger levels and I put on weight quickly. I was vigilant. I followed that idiot’s programme exactly (I am anal when it comes to rules). My next blood tests were so bad my doctor prescribed cholesterol lowering drugs and said I would be on them for the rest of my life. I tossed the bag of samples and the prescription into a dumpster on the way to my car and vowed to return to Atkins. Do dog’s experience anything like the damage Ornish’s diet was doing to me? Without blood tests it would be difficult to know as youthful dogs, like children have a natural resilience to hard times and haven’t the wherefore to explain themselves.

Immediately after the experience, I added the insights of D’Adamo to my Atkins’s regimen. When next tested, my Cholesterol dropped to acceptable levels and my Triglycerides fell to superior levels I had never seen before.

Personal: D’Adamo added to O Type & Atkins
When I looked at Peter D’Adamo’s Eat Right 4 Your Type programme for the O-type diet, it basically agreed with Atkins’ diet but went further by suggesting which foods would benefit and which would harmed the body. But I continued to use the bad dairy things- cheeses, cream (for my coffee), cream cheese, yoghourt for variety. Now I have discovered that on a pure meat and fat diet, eliminating practically all carbohydrates, I do not crave these other foods, even my favourites, cream products, nuts and chocolates. I am next going to see how adding high Vitamin K green vegetables (maybe even clams) help with my energy and blood. (I have always had trouble with my blood cells, shape and count, and therefore at times have bleeding problems.)

*The problem with experimenting on animals is that it is difficult to see if harm or benefits are taking place.

Personal: Ketogenic Diet for Severe Childhood Epilepsy
Going on four months I have been on the [modified (meaning I cheat)] Ketogenic diet (high fat, adequate protein, ultra low carbohydrate) that was used in the 20’s for severely Epileptic children. (This was prior to the severe drugs like Dilantin (phenytoin) and others but is still used today for severe cases.*) I felt very well on the ketogenic diet. Reading Stefansson’s review of the Inuit diet (and its counterparts through the world) and seeing similarities to the 20th Century Ketogenic diet has been an epiphany for me. What was thought to be a radical change in diet in 1920, may have been the natural diet for our (pre)historical existence through our generation to becoming human.!

*(Check out the Meryl Streep TV Movie, a true account of a child’s experience, “First Do No Harm”- real eye opener,- (check thepiratebay)- very moving)

Personal: Inuit Diet—Return to Our Beginnings?
Now I am starting the Inuit 75% fat (addition of home rendered lard, butter, ghee, beef fats, hard & soft, a little coconut oil, flax seed oil), 20% protein, 5% carbs. (carbs from bone marrow (raw), organ meat, frozen spinach, collards, or kale for Vitamin K; celery, garlic). Having since childhood, borderline low red cell blood counts, misshaped cells and tendency to bleed easily, I have low energy. I am trying to find the best programme for my health and energy but I am also just a very curious person and believe that there is more to nutrition than is put out by media, corporations, governments and the medical system. My interest in animal health comes from my love of pets I have had, and their suffering at the ends of their lives.

Stefansson says that the Inuit lived full lives as if burning the candle from both ends, from childhood to death they had the strength and energy of 20 year olds.

Could this be the natural state for dogs and cats as well as us?
__________________
Know History, Not Just Your Folklore.

Last edited by mhikl; April 8th, 2012 at 07:57 PM. Reason: clarity
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