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2catsandus June 25th, 2013 02:09 AM

Frustrated about canned food ingredients for CKD cats
 
We recently discovered one of our cats has CKD. We are heartbroken, but dealing with it. We are giving her SubQ injections everyday at home right now. What is troubling is pet food. All of them stink. And what makes matters worse is that the food charts are confusing and different.

I have looked extensively at both of these:
[url]http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf[/url]

Some of the same foods have two completely different numbers. It is very frustrating.

Can I ask you guys what you use for your cats who have CKD? What do you feed them???

Right now we are using several types of food.

Royal Canin RF23 dry, she doesn't like.
K/D dry she eats but I know it's dry and full of garbage
GI32 dry, we use very little of this as it is high in phosphorous and bad protein, but if we do not give it to her her stools are soft. She has been on this for years because she cannot digest things well, but we have severely cut the quantity she gets.
Ziwipeak lamb, this is the only one of the three she eats, and the only canned wet food she eats right now.

I am totally disgusted with the pet food manufacturers, even for healthy pets there are few foods that are actually good.

I would also like to ask what sort of Mackerel we can make for her, I have been told to use the one in oil, however, there are many different ones in oil, so which one is the right one? Can you give me specific brands and websites to buy it from? I was told to use Mackerel with chicken, but what part of the chicken do we use? And how to make it taste good enough that the cat will eat it?

My friend is going to the US next week and I would love to be able to tell him where to go or what to buy for us and bring it back. As we live overseas it is very difficult to actually get things that are better for our cats here.

Any information would be highly appreciated!

sugarcatmom June 25th, 2013 11:47 AM

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058969]
Can I ask you guys what you use for your cats who have CKD? What do you feed them???
[/QUOTE]

I feed my 20 yr old (has had CKD for over 3 years now) at least 50% raw diet, and the rest is various high protein good quality canned varieties - no prescription crap allowed in my house! I firmly believe one of the worst things to feed any cat, but especially one with a chronic health condition, is a low protein, low quality, plant-based dry food. If your girl likes the Ziwipeak, keep feeding that, it's a great food. Is Weruva available in Taiwan? What about Wellness? Those are decent commercial foods that many cats seem to like. Otherwise, perhaps you could try making your own raw meals, if your kitty will accept that. Not sure why you want to feed mackerel though. I try to stay away from too much fishy food for cats. If it's for the omega3 oil, maybe you can find a fish or krill oil supplement in a soft gel that you can squeeze onto her food (start with a really small amount though as many cats don't like the smell/taste).

2catsandus June 25th, 2013 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;1058986]I feed my 20 yr old (has had CKD for over 3 years now) at least 50% raw diet, and the rest is various high protein good quality canned varieties - no prescription crap allowed in my house! I firmly believe one of the worst things to feed any cat, but especially one with a chronic health condition, is a low protein, low quality, plant-based dry food. If your girl likes the Ziwipeak, keep feeding that, it's a great food. Is Weruva available in Taiwan? What about Wellness? Those are decent commercial foods that many cats seem to like. Otherwise, perhaps you could try making your own raw meals, if your kitty will accept that. Not sure why you want to feed mackerel though. I try to stay away from too much fishy food for cats. If it's for the omega3 oil, maybe you can find a fish or krill oil supplement in a soft gel that you can squeeze onto her food (start with a really small amount though as many cats don't like the smell/taste).[/QUOTE]

Hi, and thank you for your reply.

When you say a 50% raw diet, what exactely do you mean? Are you giving your cat human raw meat? or are you providing a canned food for them? Which one?

High protein will elevate BUN in CKD cats. I know cats need protein, but...

The problem with Ziwipeak is that the DMA is at 1.3-1.59% both those websites I gave you above, which I am sure everyone on here knows about, has two different numbers for this food. It is sooooooo frustating!

Weruva is not technically sold here, though we have seen it on various websites, we think someone might be bringing over extra cans, not sure...

Wellness seems not as good as it is still high in phosphorous, or something else, I forgot, my mind is drawing a blank as we have researched way tooo much over the last month. Complete exhustion!

On another forum someone told us they did a canned human mackeral mixed with chicken and their CKD cat lived to 26 years old! They had several kidney problemed cats and it seemed to work, but it seems that they might have forgotten some of what they did as it has been years ago..

We have access to BARF here, but after doing the DMA on it, I found it is the worst of the worst when it comes to phosphorous levels, it's like 3%!!!!!!!! Unbelivable!!!!

sugarcatmom June 25th, 2013 01:57 PM

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058987]
When you say a 50% raw diet, what exactely do you mean? Are you giving your cat human raw meat?[/quote]

Well no, not actually [I]human[/I] meat. ;) :D More like human-[I]grade[/I] bison, venison, chicken, kangaroo, rabbit..... etc. Fully balanced according to feline nutritional requirements, of course.


[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058987]or are you providing a canned food for them? Which one?[/quote]

I leave canned food out for free-feeding, but his meals are raw. He gets a huge variety: Wellness, Precise, Nature's Variety, Weruva, Ziwipeak, Eagle Pack, etc. I try to limit the higher phosphorus foods but I'm not terribly anal about it. It's more important to me that he maintain interest in his food, and for him that means lots of variety.


[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058987]High protein will elevate BUN in CKD cats. I know cats need protein, but...[/quote]

There's more to feeding cats than fixating on a specific lab value. You need to look at the [I]whole[/I] cat, how they're doing overall. While a low protein diet may indeed lower BUN levels, at what cost to the rest of the cat?


[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058987]We have access to BARF here, but after doing the DMA on it, I found it is the worst of the worst when it comes to phosphorous levels, it's like 3%!!!!!!!! Unbelivable!!!![/QUOTE]

There are ways to lower phosphorus levels in a raw diet. If making your own, you can eliminate the bone and use a calcium supplement instead. Certain types of meat, and certain cuts of those types, may have lower amounts of phosphorus. Adding cooked egg white is a great way to increase protein without increasing phosphorus. I'm able to get a large number of commercial raw diets here that have fantastically lower levels of phosphorus without compromising protein.

2catsandus June 25th, 2013 10:00 PM

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1058987]Hi, and thank you for your reply.

When you say a 50% raw diet, what exactely do you mean? Are you giving your cat human raw meat? or are you providing a canned food for them? Which one?

High protein will elevate BUN in CKD cats. I know cats need protein, but...

The problem with Ziwipeak is that the DMA is at 1.3-1.59% both those websites I gave you above, which I am sure everyone on here knows about, has two different numbers for this food. It is sooooooo frustating!

Weruva is not technically sold here, though we have seen it on various websites, we think someone might be bringing over extra cans, not sure...

Wellness seems not as good as it is still high in phosphorous, or something else, I forgot, my mind is drawing a blank as we have researched way tooo much over the last month. Complete exhustion!

On another forum someone told us they did a canned human mackeral mixed with chicken and their CKD cat lived to 26 years old! They had several kidney problemed cats and it seemed to work, but it seems that they might have forgotten some of what they did as it has been years ago..

We have access to BARF here, but after doing the DMA on it, I found it is the worst of the worst when it comes to phosphorous levels, it's like 3%!!!!!!!! Unbelivable!!!![/QUOTE]

Yes, human-grade food, :-), so you cook it first or just throw it down for the cat to eat? Recipes? We have never attempted to cook for the cat. We have tried to give her cooked beef and salmon and she smells it and walks away.

Can you send me to a link on the Nature's Variety's website so I can see specifically which ones you are giving your cat? There are three different types of wet canned cat food on their site and it's confusing.

It seems you use no dried food at all. You leave wet food out all day or all night? The can usually says 30 minutes, we don't follow that either, but max is usaully around 4 hours. It's very humid here, so we have to be careful.

Thanks.

sugarcatmom June 25th, 2013 11:34 PM

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]Yes, human-grade food, :-), so you cook it first or just throw it down for the cat to eat? [/quote]

No cooking. I add some warm water to it so that it isn't cold from the fridge, but it really is a [I]raw[/I] meat diet. Not all cats accept it right away. My kittens did, but it took my old guy quite a long time before he was actually eager to eat raw. Now it's his favourite thing ever.


[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]Recipes? [/quote]

Honestly, I rarely have time to make the food myself.... I mostly buy frozen commercial meals these days. Here is some really great info though, if you're interested in researching home-made raw diets a bit more:
[url]http://feline-nutrition.org/[/url]
[url]http://feline-nutrition.org/health/diet-kidney-disease-and-the-urinary-tract[/url]
[url]http://www.holisticat.com/rawrecipe.html[/url]

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]We have tried to give her cooked beef and salmon and she smells it and walks away.[/quote]

Typical. That's how my cat was too. It can take a great deal of patience and perseverance to convince a finicky feline that you aren't trying to poison them when you try to introduce something new to their diet. Some tips on how to overcome that here:
[url]http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/03/10/how-to-transition-your-cat-to-raw-food-diet-part-1.aspx[/url]
[url]http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/03/17/how-to-transition-your-cat-to-raw-food-diet-part-2.aspx[/url]
[url]http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/how-to-transition-your-cat-to-a-raw-diet[/url]

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]Can you send me to a link on the Nature's Variety's website so I can see specifically which ones you are giving your cat? [/quote]

The NV Instinct version is what I feed my CKD/diabetic cat. [url]http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/cat/can/all[/url]

The other younger cats also get the Prairie Homestyle flavours, but those do contain some grain and are higher in carbs. [url]http://www.naturesvariety.com/Prairie/cat/can/all[/url]


[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]It seems you use no dried food at all. [/quote]

No kibble for my kitties, ever. I do put some outside for the ferals, but that's because I can't leave wet food outside too long or it attracts bugs in the summer and freezes in the winter. Plus, the ferals are also hunters so their diet is augmented with fresh prey.

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059007]You leave wet food out all day or all night? The can usually says 30 minutes, we don't follow that either, but max is usaully around 4 hours. It's very humid here, so we have to be careful.
[/QUOTE]

Ya, you do have to tailor it to your environment, but I have no problem leaving canned out for many hours here, indoors. All my cats have eaten it even up to 12 hrs later with never a problem (that's my max though). Every situation is different so you have to make the call on that one.

2catsandus June 28th, 2013 12:04 AM

We tried raw meat and cooked meat, she doesn't like it. We can't wait for her to eat it because if she doesn't eat then we have yet another problem. I am going to try steaming some food and see what happens. It should retain the taste and smell.

Thank you for all the links. I will do some reading.

Ok so you are giving the canned not bagged version of Instinct. We actually tried this last year and she didn't like it. Strange because she will eat Ziwipeak.

Can I ask you what is the average temperature and humidity in your house in the summer and winter? We also have bug issues, but not so severe if we keep a lid on the garbage and throw it out everyday.

I have been reading a lot of things that make me feel sad. Many websites say that giving Sub-Q injections will only work for about 2-12 months at which time the cat will decline very fast, some people say just within a few hours. It just makes me wonder if Sub-Qs are really the best thing for her. Her fluid intake from the extra water we give her in the canned food is about 40-60ml per day, plus the 120ml SubQ everyday. I don't want to give her anymore than 200ml a day, I feel it is overkill, she is only around 4kg. I just don't know what else to do..

Love4himies June 28th, 2013 07:53 AM

I second all the advice you have gotten from SCM. I have a 17 year old in CRF and has been declining for a couple of years now. Like SCM, I am more concerned about her eating, then the phosphorus content as she is extremely picky eater, even when she was young.

I make my own cat food once a month, divide it up into daily feedings and freeze it, taking out the daily amount the day before to thaw in the fridge. I grind whole chickens (I cut off the fatty pieces but leave some skin on as that is the only way cats can get their Vit D, add 5%kidneys/hearts & 5% liver, a bit of iodized salt (for iodine), and raw egg yolks (great vit B). I make about 30-35 lbs at a time (I have 4 cats).

I mix the raw with quality canned (same brands as SCM has stated). I have no problems leaving it out all day for them to munch on.

I had to slowly start mixing raw with their canned, then eventually get to 50-50 and now they will eat plain raw.

2catsandus July 5th, 2013 11:41 AM

We have not tried to cook for her yet, but there are on many occasions where she will not eat the canned food, and goes for the dried food. If we take away all the dried food then she just doesn't eat, which isn't good.

Did you guys stop giving Sub-Qs completely?? And after the diet change then they didn't need them or what? We are very scared that this is only a temporary solution. We have purchased enough medical supplies for 4-6 months of Sub-Qs however, honestly we wish that she gets enough water from the food that we can stop doing the SubQs, but I am curious how long you guys did it or are doing it for?

sugarcatmom July 5th, 2013 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059302]If we take away all the dried food then she just doesn't eat, which isn't good.[/quote]

Nope, that's not good for sure. What happens if you pulverize the kibble and sprinkle it on top of the wet food? Or offer her small but frequent meals of kibble next to a dish of wet? Sometimes wetting a cat's appetite with a touch of dry kick-starts their hunger enough that they'll then eat more of the wet when the dry is done.

[QUOTE=2catsandus;1059302]Did you guys stop giving Sub-Qs completely?? [/QUOTE]

I only started giving subQs to my CKD guy regularly in the past few months. Before that, it was only when he was showing signs of constipation and my usual tricks weren't working - maybe once every few months. Now he gets around 150ml just about every day (sometimes I skip a day). But he is 20, with Stage III renal disease.

2catsandus July 7th, 2013 09:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
These are her BUN, CREA, and PHOS numbers over the last month attatched in the photo, she went in for a two week blood test today and I am posting the results here of all of her blood tests.

Why is our vet insisting on SubQs when I see so many of you guys not giving the subQs at all or very rarely??

As for the food, we give her cyproheptadine and sucralfate when needed. The appetite stimulation is good, but then she pigs out and eats nearly 50-100g of food in a very very short time, which also cannot be good. The only good thing is that the medication makes her want to drink, so she then eats the wet food.

She has not had a drink by herself from any of the 5 water bowls we rotate around the house in the last month plus.. It is very frustation for us to watch her eat dried food, though we are thankful she is eating at all. We leave wet food out, like last night, she didn't touch it, instead she ate all the dried food. If we take the dried away, she won't eat anything. I remember a few weeks ago we tried to mix dried food with the wet food and she didn't like the smell of that at all.


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