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-   -   Aggression issues (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81192)

Terrie May 27th, 2012 11:03 AM

Aggression issues
 
My 6 month old GSD has got serious aggression
Issues. He is a working dog, both his parents
Are police dogs. He was given raw meat
As food ( which I immediately weened him off)
He is biting, not so much my partner because
She halls back, but me, yesterday I fed him and when I
Went to go to the living room, I patted his behind, he
Turned around, growled and lunged and bit me hard. Let's just say
In a sensitive area where if it was someone
elses dog, he would be put to sleep. Now I don't
Trust him and he drew blood from me.
He has gone to training classes and the trainer
Who's also the breeder is blaming us for not
Keeping up with the training. He is walked
Every day for one - 2 hours. He has his own
Pool and we play with him all the time. Any
Suggestions? I need help because next bite
He's out of here.

LavenderRott May 27th, 2012 11:17 AM

Before anyone can help, we need some answers to some questions.

Is he only aggressive when there is food present?

What classes have you had him in?

Did you meet his parents? Were they approachable and friendly?

You say he doesn't bite your partner because she halls back - can you explain what you mean by this?

Terrie May 27th, 2012 03:01 PM

Before anyone can help, we need some answers to some questions.

Is he only aggressive when there is food present?

What classes have you had him in?

Did you meet his parents? Were they approachable and friendly?

You say he doesn't bite your partner because she halls back - can you explain what you mean by this?
__________________
Hi
Let me give you a little bit of history on Shiloh, both his parents are police dogs, yes i've met them, didn't act aggressive towards me, but then again, they are adults and both are extensively trained and disciplined. Shiloh is only 6 months old, he doesn't know his own strength, when we play with him, he will try to bite, not sure if this is a form of communication or what, it's not aggressive but we have been correcting him since day one. He left his mom way to early in my opinion, he was only 7 1/2 weeks old. I had to have him get his second shots, my first german shepherd's breeder would not let me see my dog till he had his second shots. Shiloh and his parents and siblings are fed only raw meat ( personally, this to me is edging on a dog to be aggressive ) he hates loud noises, like thunder, car music base, etc... he runs around in circle chasing his tail, this we have been trying to brake since day one. When we told the breeder this, he said there is no such thing as separation anxiety ( this is why Shiloh broke out of his cage twice - when they were closed and destroyed things in the house ) now we have to double lock the gate so he doesn't get out. He's been to training, but your basic sit, stay, socializing with humans and dogs training. My partner is not soft like me, she treats the dog like a dog, I treat the dog like family/pet. She does not cuddle him, or show any true type of affection towards him, she plays with him, but doesn't hug or kiss him like i do. I don't play ruff with him, I am more of a snuggle, hugger person, I'm sure he sense my weakness and takes advantage of it.

LavenderRott May 27th, 2012 03:28 PM

First off, I will tell you that raw feeding does NOT in any way, shape or form have anything to do with aggression of any type. If done properly, it is probably the safest way to feed a dog and the best way to ensure that a dog receives everything that it needs to be physically healthy.

While I would prefer to see a working breed puppy stay with it's litter until it is 8 weeks old, 7 1/2 weeks is not unheard of and is not detrimental to the mental health of a puppy.

At 6 months old, this is still, very much, a young puppy. No, he doesn't know his own strength. You need to teach him the proper way to play. So - here goes. When he tries to bite you, don't speak just cross your arms in front of you and turn your back to him. Will he continue? Probably. Keep your back to him (even if this means turning around in circles) and ignore. He will soon learn that biting makes you extremely boring.

I strongly suggest you get back into some kind of training class. I think that you will find that the biting will lessen as your dog matures IF you keep him learning and his mind busy with other things. This is a working dog, that came from working parents - if he is bored, he is going to find things to do and they probably won't be things you would prefer that he be doing.

Terrie May 27th, 2012 03:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thank you Sandi

I will try this, I keep forgetting he's a pup, he's the size of my other GSD when he was full grown. He is smart as a whip, when we walk him, he jumps over park benches, and jumps over obstacles, so we keep him going, he's pretty tuckered out when he gets home In the house, it's soft play, with his toys, not ruff housing, that's for outside, I will do the ignore thing with him and i'm sure you are right, he will outgrow it, he has owngrown chewing my furniture. Tobasco sauce helped but he's getting better. I guess like I stated earlier, I treat him like a pet/family and dangit, i have 5 long teeth marks on my body that were bleeding so, I was hurt, angry, etc... I'm Not a quitter, although he's a challenge, he will end up being as good as my other GSD
Here is a pic of him.

LavenderRott May 27th, 2012 04:39 PM

He is a fine looking beastie!

Don't let him do too much jumping - remember, young joints need time to grow and become strong.

Choochi May 27th, 2012 08:33 PM

I do have to repeat this, feeding raw has nothing to do with aggression. Bad genes and bad owners cause aggression, either through poor training or LACK of training and structure.
Dogs are not little humans and you need to stop treating your dog as such. Hugs are generally perceived by dogs as acts of threat not affection. It sounds like the breeder's concerns might be in the right place when she is blaming you for not raising him appropriately. What baffles me however is how an inexperienced person like yourself ended up with a working line dog, that's a big no no. And no, having a GSD prior does not automatically make you experienced, the type of knowledge you have obtained from the experience does and you sound like not only a very inexperienced dog owner but one with some very incorrect ideas about dogs.
You need to hire a trainer who can work with you to put you on the right path of how to raise, train, and treat this dog properly because this is a disaster waiting to happen if at 6 months he already feels it is acceptable to attack you over his food.

In response to your breeder saying you have not kept up with the training you said but you walk him 2h per day and he has a pool. That is not training. That is exercise. And mindless play and exercise are completely different then training or purposeful exercise which supports your training.

It is also not too young for a pup to leave at 7.5 wks of age. Working and police dogs some times are allowed to leave even earlier then that as they go into training and appropriate socialization and environmental exposure right away and this is work that is best done at this age. Most pet dogs go to new homes at 8wks of age. You can't blame your dog leaving the breeder 3 days before that as the reason for the issues you are having.

My suggestion, if you live close enough to your breeder ask her for help. She knows the lines of the dog, I'm assuming she trains police dogs? That would make her very qualified to help you. In cases like yours, it's not the dog generally that needs to learn and change, it's more of a case of the owner learning how to appropriately raise their dog and how to train them. You can also ask your breeder for referrals for trainers if for any reason she is too far for you to travel to.

Goldfields May 28th, 2012 11:23 AM

Terrie, I mentioned your pup to my sister seeing she also has a working line GSD pup and she'd more or less agree with what Choochie is telling you. She said you've missed 4 months of training already.

Terrie May 29th, 2012 05:33 PM

Thank you Choochie, push over Dog whisperer !! I've had dogs longer than you were born. Not every new car runs right. Not every child grows up perfect. Sometimes actions/ issues happen, and it's in the correction that makes the difference. I don't appreciate you calling me a novis when you don't even know me. I've had a mutt ( 21 human years) a poodle ( 5 years ) a sheltie ( 11 years ) a lab/beagle 15 (years ) a GSD ( 8 years ) so don't come out like you know it all. I asked for help not criticism.

LavenderRott May 29th, 2012 06:01 PM

[QUOTE=Terrie;1040769]Thank you Choochie, push over Dog whisperer !! I've had dogs longer than you were born. Not every new car runs right. Not every child grows up perfect. Sometimes actions/ issues happen, and it's in the correction that makes the difference. I don't appreciate you calling me a novis when you don't even know me. I've had a mutt ( 21 human years) a poodle ( 5 years ) a sheltie ( 11 years ) a lab/beagle 15 (years ) a GSD ( 8 years ) so don't come out like you know it all. I asked for help not criticism.[/QUOTE]

Really?

She offered help, not criticism. Simply owning a dog does not make one an expert, no matter the age. Everything she said is dead spot on.

Choochi May 29th, 2012 09:01 PM

Obviously wisdom does not come with age. I have taken care of, raised, and trained hundreds of dogs of all shapes and sizes, but thanks for implying that because you had 5 dogs and by your own admission are ancient that makes you an expert. Obviously there must be some thing very wrong with your dog and not you if by only 6 months of age he is already attacking you. Great job! Sorry for implying there was some thing wrong with what you were doing. Damn dog! I feel sorry for the poor fella.

Choochi May 29th, 2012 09:04 PM

[QUOTE=Terrie;1040769]Sometimes actions/ issues happen, and it's in the correction that makes the difference. [/QUOTE]

Some times, but that's just my humble inexperience opinion, prevention goes much further then correction when it comes to problems.

Barkingdog May 29th, 2012 10:00 PM

[QUOTE=Terrie;1040612]My 6 month old GSD has got serious aggression
Issues. He is a working dog, both his parents
Are police dogs. He was given raw meat
As food ( which I immediately weened him off)
He is biting, not so much my partner because
She halls back, but me, yesterday I fed him and when I
Went to go to the living room, I patted his behind, he
Turned around, growled and lunged and bit me hard. Let's just say
In a sensitive area where if it was someone
elses dog, he would be put to sleep. Now I don't
Trust him and he drew blood from me.
He has gone to training classes and the trainer
Who's also the breeder is blaming us for not
Keeping up with the training. He is walked
Every day for one - 2 hours. He has his own
Pool and we play with him all the time. Any
Suggestions? I need help because next bite
He's out of here.[/QUOTE]

I am wondering how did you come about getting the dog in the first place? When I got my hearing dog I was told if a dog did not pass the test to be a service dog it was given up for adopted to be a pet. Did your puppy fail his test to be a police dog?

marko May 30th, 2012 07:31 AM

Let's keep this civil and more polite please, that's the best way to teach and learn.

My opinion on this would be the same as what's being offered. The RAW food has nothing to do with aggression.

The aggression issue should be dealt with primarily through additional training from a referred trainer that has lots of experience. You need to clearly establish (in your dog's mind) that you are the leader. Your body language, and making the dog 'work' for stuff can help.

here are 2 articles that may help. Good luck and please keep us updated.
[url]http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/nothing-in-life-is-free-nilf/[/url]
[url]http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/whos-in-charge/[/url]

Barkingdog May 30th, 2012 11:05 AM

[QUOTE=marko;1040786]Let's keep this civil and more polite please, that's the best way to teach and learn.

My opinion on this would be the same as what's being offered. The RAW food has nothing to do with aggression.

The aggression issue should be dealt with primarily through additional training from a referred trainer that has lots of experience. You need to clearly establish (in your dog's mind) that you are the leader. Your body language, and making the dog 'work' for stuff can help.

here are 2 articles that may help. Good luck and please keep us updated.
[url]http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/nothing-in-life-is-free-nilf/[/url]
[url]http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/whos-in-charge/[/url][/QUOTE]

I was told by a dog trainer to never let your dog walk ahead of you when going in or out of a door. The dog should be told to sit and wait while you put it leash on and the owner walk out of the door first to let the dog know who is the leader. When I first brought my new dog home he was very mouthy and my vet told me to push my dog away and turn my back on him when he got mouthy with me. Marty got the message fast.

Choochi May 30th, 2012 11:55 AM

[QUOTE=Barkingdog;1040780]I am wondering how did you come about getting the dog in the first place? When I got my hearing dog I was told if a dog did not pass the test to be a service dog it was given up for adopted to be a pet. Did your puppy fail his test to be a police dog?[/QUOTE]

Her dog is bred from working lines, her dog is not a working dog. When a working breeder breeds a litter, they never keep the entire litter. They keep the one or two pups with the most potential and sell the remainder of pups normally to sport homes or very experienced pet homes. Some times when they have trouble finding appropriate homes, the standards for what an appropriate home may be lowered and some pups from working lines with lower then average drives do make wonderful pets even for those with less experience (although that in general is an exception not the rule).

Generally, puppies are briefly tested for basic characteristics of what would make them appropriate for police work, then they are raised, socialized, and given very minimal training until they are mature and begin to show their true genetic potential. These are referred to as green dogs and are generally about a year old. Then they are tested again more extensively for their potential to do police work and what type and if they pass they go on to specialized training. It costs thousands of $ and extensive man hours to train a police dog, so not just any potential candidate makes it into the program. No one will waste their time on a dog if they just might make it. Very few dogs, even from working lines have what it takes to become a police dog. It really takes an extremely special dog.

Barkingdog May 30th, 2012 03:42 PM

[QUOTE=Choochi;1040794]Her dog is bred from working lines, her dog is not a working dog. When a working breeder breeds a litter, they never keep the entire litter. They keep the one or two pups with the most potential and sell the remainder of pups normally to sport homes or very experienced pet homes. Some times when they have trouble finding appropriate homes, the standards for what an appropriate home may be lowered and some pups from working lines with lower then average drives do make wonderful pets even for those with less experience (although that in general is an exception not the rule).

Generally, puppies are briefly tested for basic characteristics of what would make them appropriate for police work, then they are raised, socialized, and given very minimal training until they are mature and begin to show their true genetic potential. These are referred to as green dogs and are generally about a year old. Then they are tested again more extensively for their potential to do police work and what type and if they pass they go on to specialized training. It costs thousands of $ and extensive man hours to train a police dog, so not just any potential candidate makes it into the program. No one will waste their time on a dog if they just might make it. Very few dogs, even from working lines have what it takes to become a police dog. It really takes an extremely special dog.[/QUOTE]

"My 6 month old GSD has got serious aggression
Issues. He is a working dog, both his parents
Are police dogs. He was given raw meat "

I copy this from the OP first comment. They wrote their dog is a 'working' dog. That is why I called it a working dog.

I know how it works with working dogs, I posted that about dogs used at service dogs ,it works the same way. It is hard to know just how some puppies will turn out, and it cost a lot of money to train hearing and seeing eyes dogs. If a dog it not a good candidate it given up as a pet. I was wondering if the puppy had started some training to be a police dog and was not measuring up to par.
I hope the OP will be able to find way to train their dog so they will keep him. He is a beautiful and GS are so smart and with the right trainer the dog should learn fast.

Goldfields May 30th, 2012 10:16 PM

[QUOTE=Terrie;1040635]Thank you Sandi

I will try this, I keep forgetting he's a pup, he's the size of my other GSD when he was full grown. He is smart as a whip, when we walk him, he jumps over park benches, and jumps over obstacles, so we keep him going, he's pretty tuckered out when he gets home In the house, it's soft play, with his toys, not ruff housing, that's for outside, I will do the ignore thing with him and i'm sure you are right, he will outgrow it, he has owngrown chewing my furniture. Tobasco sauce helped but he's getting better. I guess like I stated earlier, I treat him like a pet/family and dangit, i have 5 long teeth marks on my body that were bleeding so, I was hurt, angry, etc... I'm Not a quitter, although he's a challenge, he will end up being as good as my other GSD
Here is a pic of him.[/QUOTE]

Terrie, I'm sure that later you'll look back on this dog's puppy days and wonder at how much he's changed, for the better. :) My sister thinks you may have just startled him when you touched him from behind, she said the working dog line pups are sharper and do react more. She has obedience trained and tracked with two , shall we say, ordinary GSD's, but finds her current working line pup to be a real challenge. So much faster, more co-ordinated, more intelligent, so she is doing extraordinarily well at obedience for her age. I wish you luck with the dog and do keep us posted. If you'd like to discuss any problems with my sister via email, please send me a pm. She and I both have shelties too incidentally, so I couldn't help wondering how you found yours, was it noisy? :D

Terrie June 10th, 2012 05:36 PM

[QUOTE=Barkingdog;1040780]I am wondering how did you come about getting the dog in the first place? When I got my hearing dog I was told if a dog did not pass the test to be a service dog it was given up for adopted to be a pet. Did your puppy fail his test to be a police dog?[/QUOTE]
Thank you Marko for sending me those two sites. I started right away with quiet time with Shiloh, he was crated while we were home for 6 hours, and although it broke my heart, he had to understand just who paid the bills ( sort of speak ) I am making him sit for his water and his food in the morning, he is not to move until I give him the command, same with going out and in the house. As he gets older, I'm sure it he become second hand for both of us. So once again, I appreciate you taking the time for me. Kind hearts are a dying art.

seabreeze October 14th, 2012 03:05 AM

is or was he injured before?


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