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-   -   the power of playing (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=76307)

pick April 7th, 2011 08:10 AM

the power of playing
 
I allways have hear that the moment of playing is when we sometimes see some educational problems. For example: when the dog is coming showing a toy in his mouth I knew that isnīt inviting me for to play, he show his toy like his trofeu, his grate medal like "I want to play with this ball now! Because I'm the alph and now it's to play now!"

One think wich I have read in the book of Jan Fellen, is when one dog are playng to the get the ball she says if the dog don't return the ball it's a sine of grate audacity.

In this situation what we do? We fake that we don't want to play or just take the toy from his mouth and stop the playing like who is saying "that's enouth!"?


By the way, she says to for never enter in draw games because the dog could think that he is the boss and he is the strongest one? But I can't see why never draw games if I always win in draw games...

Marty11 April 7th, 2011 08:31 AM

When my dog greets you or when she's really happy, she grabs a toy, but does not want you to have it either. Just for show..... I am not sure what that means either.

millitntanimist April 7th, 2011 08:59 AM

Dogs play for the same reason all animals do (including us) - to develop good social skills, to build physical endurance and, well, [I]to have fun[/I] :)
There is nothing wrong with how your dog is trying to play with you - "keep away" is a very common game - but if it's not the way you want them to engage you teach them other games you want to play instead (i.e. tug, fetch, "find it" etc.)

Marty11 April 7th, 2011 09:04 AM

How do u teach "find it". She has (I'm sure like most dogs) an amazing sniffer. She will dig to china if there is even a crumb under the couch. I think we would enjoy that game.....

millitntanimist April 7th, 2011 02:31 PM

I'm going for quantity over quality here (i couldn't find the video I was thinking of) but here are a few that might help :)

This has a breakdown of the find-it game (a little ways in)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mTgIMr_1w[/url]

This has a number of scent games
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJxG--4t3SU&feature=related[/url]

This one is working on object discrimination once you have mastered the find-it
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pyFTcuUfSM[/url]

pick April 12th, 2011 07:12 AM

If you get read the Jan Fellen book you will know what I mean...

millitntanimist April 12th, 2011 08:16 AM

I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.

I found these books very informing and interesting, maybe you might like them too? :thumbs up

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Other-End-Leash-What-Around/dp/034544678X/ref=pd_sim_b_5[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understanding-Canine-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0226115631/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302613872&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360/ref=pd_sim_b_13[/url]

GalaxiesKuklos April 13th, 2011 01:00 PM

Your post is laden with emotional and prejudicial language. You are claiming to have knowledge about the mind of the dog, something you couldn't possibly have.

There are several studies that point to the fact that dogs play differently depending on whether it is dog-human or dog-dog. The studies are long and complex but it comes to this: with humans play is cooperative and with among dogs it is competitive.

Some of the best trained dogs I've seen are protection schutzhund trained dogs and in training they always get to "win.", I'm not necessarily suggesting it is causative but I would suspect there is a correlation.

TeriM April 13th, 2011 02:52 PM

[QUOTE=millitntanimist;1001286]Dogs play for the same reason all animals do (including us) - to develop good social skills, to build physical endurance and, well, [I]to have fun[/I] :)
There is nothing wrong with how your dog is trying to play with you - "keep away" is a very common game - but if it's not the way you want them to engage you teach them other games you want to play instead (i.e. tug, fetch, "find it" etc.)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=millitntanimist;1002808]I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.

I found these books very informing and interesting, maybe you might like them too? :thumbs up

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Other-End-Leash-What-Around/dp/034544678X/ref=pd_sim_b_5[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understanding-Canine-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0226115631/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302613872&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360/ref=pd_sim_b_13[/url][/QUOTE]

I agree with both these posts :thumbs up. Play is an excellent way to improve your relationship with your dog and is an amazing training tool. Please don't read all sorts of alpha things into your dog wanting to play with you. Take it as a compliment that your dog enjoys interacting with you. It is important to teach an "off switch" so you aren't being demanded to play all the time but that can be easily taught with positive methods.

pick April 13th, 2011 06:21 PM

[QUOTE=millitntanimist;1002808]I have not read her book but I have looked into the author. I totally agree with part of her philosophy, but some of her methodologies are grounded in fairly specious science.[/QUOTE]


Just give me two or three examples most relevants about her fairly? :confused:

millitntanimist April 14th, 2011 07:50 AM

The idea that dogs will try to "dominate" you unless you maintain your role as "alpha," and that all dog behavior problems arise from this struggle for "dominance," is based on bad science.
There are novels written about this but here is a super-condensed version :thumbs up.
The "dominance" theory started with observations of the behavior ants (yup, ants) and was erroneously applied to all groups of animals. The concept of alpha was added after studies of captive wolves in the 1970's (wolves who had no association with one another that were thrown together, thus creating an unstable social structure) were seen to fight for their "rank" within the group. These then, in turn, were applied to dog social interaction, and despite the body of research that has since been done with wolves, as well as feral and domestic dogs that disproves these assumptions (that feral dogs form packs like wolves, that you must always eat before your dog to establish "alpha", that struggles for power in a wolf pack are frequent and violent, etc.) they continue to persist. Even at the behest of the scientists who performed the original research.

The books I suggested cover all of this but if you want here are a few articles that offer the same information.
[url]http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php[/url]
[url]http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2808%2900115-9[/url]
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid[/url]
(this one is reeeeally long, but the it's the best researched)
[url]http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html[/url]

Hope this is helpful :)

pick April 15th, 2011 04:20 PM

Ants? fake science?? NOW I'm realy confuseddddd... They descend from the wolf, I'm realy realy confused now... :eek::eek:


I will try to read, but I guess this is will get a new road for me...

Ohhh dear... how could this be :(


P.S: thanks any way, unless now I know the trought...

pattymac April 15th, 2011 05:49 PM

I play tug with my dog, I win, she wins....neither wins...no big deal. We play keep away..that's a good one. I push her away and she comes back for more, it's alot of fun, we wrestle too. She brings me a toy, if I feel like playing we play, if we don't I tell her to get lost :) She'll go get her bone and chill with that for awhile.

Etown_Chick April 16th, 2011 12:04 PM

My dog plays competitively with humans, or tries to. I don't play that game. It's a great way to get bitten, even though it's by accident.
I think play is a great way to bond with my dog. We both enjoy it. That doesn't mean I"m a play machine and play every single time he wants to. He is very bossy and demanding, and the more I give in to that, the worse he gets.
That doesn't necessarily mean the Alpha/dominant theorists are correct. It's just the way he is.

pick April 24th, 2011 05:41 PM

[QUOTE=millitntanimist;1003472]The idea that dogs will try to "dominate" you unless you maintain your role as "alpha," and that all dog behavior problems arise from this struggle for "dominance," is based on bad science.
There are novels written about this but here is a super-condensed version :thumbs up.
The "dominance" theory started with observations of the behavior ants (yup, ants) and was erroneously applied to all groups of animals. The concept of alpha was added after studies of captive wolves in the 1970's (wolves who had no association with one another that were thrown together, thus creating an unstable social structure) were seen to fight for their "rank" within the group. These then, in turn, were applied to dog social interaction, and despite the body of research that has since been done with wolves, as well as feral and domestic dogs that disproves these assumptions (that feral dogs form packs like wolves, that you must always eat before your dog to establish "alpha", that struggles for power in a wolf pack are frequent and violent, etc.) they continue to persist. Even at the behest of the scientists who performed the original research.

The books I suggested cover all of this but if you want here are a few articles that offer the same information.
[url]http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php[/url]
[url]http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2808%2900115-9[/url]
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid[/url]
(this one is reeeeally long, but the it's the best researched)
[url]http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html[/url]

Hope this is helpful :)[/QUOTE]


I have seen the bibliography, what's the top10 books do you recomend me plzz??? :D

millitntanimist April 25th, 2011 01:49 PM

Sure :)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-Startling-Understanding-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0684855305/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303756279&sr=8-2[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Power-Positive-Dog-Training/dp/0470241845/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303756337&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Teaching-Training/dp/0553380397/ref=pd_sim_b_1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Other-Leash-Patricia-McConnel-Ph-D/dp/034544678X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=pd_sim_b_18[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/How-Behave-Your-Dog-Behaves/dp/0793806445/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303756943&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Culture-Clash-Jean-Donaldson/dp/1888047054/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303756975&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-are-Neptune-Jean-Donaldson/dp/1929242654/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303757220&sr=1-1[/url]

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Excel-Erated-Learning-Explaining-Plain-English/dp/1888047070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303757297&sr=1-1[/url]

here's my 10, anybody have something to add?

pick April 28th, 2011 02:12 PM

Thaaannkk youu, a lot!!:thumbs up:thumbs up

The publishures are in down of the links

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-Startling-...3756279&sr=8-2[/url]
Publisher: Scribner (May 27 2001)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Power-Positive-...3756337&sr=1-1[/url]
Publisher: Howell Book House; 2 edition (April 4 2008)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Shoot-Dog-...ref=pd_sim_b_1[/url]
Publisher: Bantam; 1999 edition (Aug 3 1999)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Other-Leash-Pat...d_bxgy_b_img_c[/url]
Publisher: Ballantine Books; Reprint edition (April 29 2003)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Talking-Terms-D...d_bxgy_b_img_b[/url]
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing; 2 edition (December 2005)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/When-Pigs-Fly-T...ef=pd_sim_b_18[/url]
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing (April 15 2007)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/How-Behave-Your...3756943&sr=1-1[/url]
Publisher: TFH Publications, Inc.; 2 edition (Sep 17 2010)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Culture-Clash-J...3756975&sr=1-1[/url]
Publisher: James & Kenneth Publishers (October 1996)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Dogs-are-Neptun...3757220&sr=1-1[/url]
Publisher: Dogwise Publishing; 2 edition (April 15 2009)

[url]http://www.amazon.ca/Excel-Erated-Le...3757297&sr=1-1[/url]
Publisher: James & Kenneth Publishers (October 1996)


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