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-   -   Are we doing right by this puppy? (raw diet) (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=73039)

Silverwolf October 11th, 2010 10:26 AM

Are we doing right by this puppy? (raw diet)
 
Hey everyone, firstly some background:

Maiko is by now an 11 week old Husky/Golden retriever mix that was about 17lbs at last weigh in at the vet (last wednesday Oct 6). For about 3-4 weeks before we got him he was being started on Dog Chow (from purina I think?) 1/2 a cup in the morning and evening, and we were provided with a pretty big bag of it when he arrived.

Our family has been various degrees of raw/cooked mixed feeders and with our little guy my fiance and I wanted to start more of a prey style all raw diet, liking the results a lot of other people have had for their babies on it, and not really at all liking the "special additives" in most dog kibble :yuck:. Well, in an attempt to ween him off the kibble and try to make the transition easier on him (he was already starting to have really soft poos on the kibble), we started mixing a little kibble with some raw ground beef, to see how he'd take it. Things seemed to be ok (he ended up scarfing it down and becoming houdini, making it disappear before our very eyes lol) so we started separating it a bit, feeding him kibble in the morning and his raw ground beef in the evening. After a few days, his poos were starting to get a bit weird, soft one time and a bit runny later on... After reading up some and getting advice from a few others with the same problem, everything suggested not feeding him the kibble, to just start him cold turkey and starting with chicken, as that would be the easiest.

Well it's been about a week now and from our calculations (8% of his body weight, or 2% of his adult ideal weight) he gets about 1.5lbs of food a day, 75% meat, 15% bone, and 10% liver/organs. We started on chicken as suggested and his meals are usually comprised like this, with a few variations:

Day 1:
Morning: 1/4 boneless chicken breast
1 full chicken leg (minus thigh) with skin and bone

Evening: 1/2 boneless chicken breast
1 full chicken leg (minus thigh) with skin and bone

Day 2:
Morning: 1/4 boneless chicken breast
1 full chicken leg (minus thigh) with skin and bone

Evening: 1/4 boneless chicken breast
1 full chicken leg (minus thigh) with skin and bone
1/4 beef liver (we couldn't find chicken liver)
1 small sardine, canned but in water, no salt added (what we could get at the time, and one of our friends suggested it for the omega)

The rest of the week is just flipped back and forth between day 1 and 2. It was suggested to us not to feed the beef liver every day because it was rich and he might be getting more than he needs? Same with the sardine? So we feed both every other day, just in small portions for the week.

Each meal comprises the 1.5lbs we calculated that he needs.

The results:

For the first day or 2 he seemed fine with it, chewing everything properly and his bowel movements were normal. Still soft like from the kibble though, so we weren't sure if that was normal or not. After the first 2 days he seemed to have a bit of a tummy upset and vomited one morning first some of his meal, then the butt end of the chicken leg bone. Afterwards he seemed fine and his poos were still soft. That morning that he vomited, we only fed him the boneless chicken breast, afraid of how he'd react to the bone. That evening we fed him his normal meal and he seemed fine the next day.

The day after that, Saturday I believe, he gave us a scare and mostly swallowed whole the chicken leg! He ate the meat but the bone it seemed he got tired of chewing and gulped the whole thing. We watched him and he seemed fine that night, but the next morning he vomited up some of the bone that I'm guessing he couldn't digest properly (plus the butt of the leg again), and only once. So after that my fiance' held onto the bone for him to make sure he chewed it properly and deposited the end of the leg (what usually comes back up anyway) into the trash. That seemed to work until Sunday night when he tugged the butt end of the bone out of my fiance's hand and swallowed it whole. This morning it was vomited back up in 3 pieces. This morning, we fed him his chicken breast and leg, my fiance' holding it again for him and throwing away the end of the leg.

In the meantime this weekend, his poos have been going from soft to runny... with him having a bout of constipation from Saturday night until last night (sunday, we think from the part of bone/whole bone he swallowed) then having a slightly runnier soft poo when he did finally go. This morning he just flat out had runny diarrhea. :\

I also forgot to mention that throughout his runny/soft poo switches he's had some horrific gas throught the end of the week/weekend. :(

The only reason we've stuck with this meal plan this long is that our friends have suggested he may be going through detox from having kibble the whole time before he came to us. But it's been about half a week - week and things seem to be getting a bit worse. The vomiting is still happening, though it is only once and when he gets the butt end of the bone swallowed, he seems fine after his morning meal, it's just the morning after the previous evening's mean when he gets the bone end by accident. and his poos have been getting runnier, as I've described in the previous paragraph. :\

Other than those two things he seems to be normal otherwise. He always has a lot of energy, though he's been eating grass more often lately. And he seems to be sleeping fine throughout the day and fully at night (as I type this he's actually napping next to me).

Are we doing right by this puppy or is there something that should be changed? I'm starting to get a bit worried that we shouldn't be giving him chicken bones after all and that we're doing some horrible things to his stomach and bowels. I hate seeing his tummy so upset. :\

Any help would be so greatly appreciated :confused:


Edit:: I also again forgot to mention... last Wednesday when he was at the vet we had him started on his vaccinations and de-worm/worm prevention. That night he seemed to get a bit of a fever (which the vet said he might get) but got more comfortable when he could sleep by our air conditioner on low. The next day he seemed his normal energetic self. That was a day before the tummy problems started. Could this all be detox? Or bone not digesting well? Or just from his first vaccine?

Silverwolf October 11th, 2010 10:30 AM

I also forgot to mention:

Is there a way to make sure we are feeding him enough? We only feed him twice a day but he always seems like he is starving and craving food, and goes especially nuts during feeding times, barking and yelping for food. We haven't adjusted it due to these tummy problems, but is it normal for him to seem like he's that hungry? His weight seems normal (he's not over or under).

Rgeurts October 11th, 2010 01:21 PM

There are a lot of very passionate raw feeders here, and I'm sure most would disagree with what I have to say, but take it as you like. Raw is probably ok for most dogs, but there are certain dogs who will not do well on it at all, and it can even be dangerous. We have one of those dogs. He's an Alaskan Malamute. He's now 7 months old, but we have battled to keep him alive and try to get him healthy. He sees a specialist who has heavily warned us [B]against[/B] feeding raw. If your puppy has a compromised immune system, from anything that may be going on with him, raw could actually be very detrimental, even fatal (especially ground beef). Raw has a lot of bacteria and parasites. "Most" dogs with a normal immune system are able to overcome that, ours cannot. One big threat, and these will [B]not[/B] be taken care of or "expelled" by the normal parasite treatments such as deworming are Neospora, Canine Cryptosporidium, and Canine Toxoplasmosis. These can all be spread through raw meat of an infected animal (a lot comes from beef). Again, I know a lot of people who feed raw will not agree, and that's ok! Just do your research :)

One thing people get very hung up on is that dogs in the wild will not forage for vegetables, grains, fruits etc., they are carnivores. While that is mostly true (wild dogs will forage for whatever they can, including gardens!), dogs have been domesticated for decades, and as such, their immune systems and digestion have adjusted as well.

Below are just a couple of links. If you search the internet and speak with an animal nutritionist (not just a vet, most aren't nearly as versed in animal nutrition as they would like people to believe), you will be given a lot of good information. Some will be biased, some not. It's up to you to make the decision. As I said, some dogs do great on raw, some do not. Most raw feeders will have you believe that [B]all[/B] dogs benefit from it, which is just not true. Also, a lot of very prominent veterinarians and nutritionists call raw feeding a "fad" diet as there are no substantiated clinical trials to prove good or bad.

[URL="http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm"]http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm[/URL]

[URL="http://dogtime.com/raw-food-diet-dangers-dogs-aaha.html"]http://dogtime.com/raw-food-diet-dangers-dogs-aaha.html[/URL]

Good luck :)

MerlinsHope October 12th, 2010 02:19 PM

[I]he gave us a scare and mostly swallowed whole the chicken leg[/I]

This means your portions are too small, and you need to offer large pieces.

Sorry, but your diet isn't complete by any stretch of the word. You need to offer this dog a variety of meat and not only chicken and fish. Right now it's very lacking.

Please don't be put off by anti-raw folks. They actively choose to not accept , and we are all entitled to our choices. Raw is here to stay as it should have been before Dr. Ballard came up with his not-so-bright idea.

Love4himies October 12th, 2010 02:32 PM

I am not too familiar with dog nutrition as I am with cat's but if you are concerned about bacteria, you can the whole chucks of meat into boiling water for a minute to kill off samonella (SP??) or e-coli that collect on the exterior of the meat. Also, get your meat from a trusted butcher.

And lastly, I agree, don't feed previously ground meat (hamburger) as it can be a breeding ground for bacteria, unlike full roasts/chickens.

I have been feeding my cats raw for years and haven't had a problem.

Rgeurts October 12th, 2010 02:37 PM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958407][I]he gave us a scare and mostly swallowed whole the chicken leg[/I]

This means your portions are too small, and you need to offer large pieces.

Sorry, but your diet isn't complete by any stretch of the word. You need to offer this dog a variety of meat and not only chicken and fish. Right now it's very lacking.

Please don't be put off by anti-raw folks. They actively choose to not accept , and we are all entitled to our choices. Raw is here to stay as it should have been before Dr. Ballard came up with his not-so-bright idea.[/QUOTE]

I am by no means anti-raw, but people should be aware that it's not for everyone or every animal. Just do your research, know your pups health and make your own decisions.

luckypenny October 12th, 2010 04:01 PM

Silverwolf, the very first question that always comes to my mind with puppies and diarrhea/soft stool, is have they been thoroughly de-wormed (regardless of the diet they're fed)? How often/frequent has Maiko been de-wormed and using what product? Have you had his feces tested for intestinal parasites?

Do you have a small kitchen scale? We have an electronic one and I found it most useful when I started out feeding raw over 3 years ago.

The easiest way for me to feed is to prepare meals ahead of time and freeze in individual portions (this cuts out having to weigh things daily). Our guys eat about 1.5lbs each as well. One of our girls only weighs 24lbs, adult size, and also gets the same amount so the 2% rule is only a starting point for most dogs. There's always an exception to the rule depending on the individual dog, their metabolism, and activity levels.

An example of a few days' meals that average roughly 1.5lbs that works out well [I]for our guys[/I]:

Day 1.
Breakfast: 1/2 chicken minus the leg, thigh, and wings (two of ours do not digest these bones well and will either vomit or pass them in their stool, sometimes accompanied by blood. I feel more comfortable omitting these bones from their diets). 1 chicken heart, 1 giblet, 1 liver.

Supper: Meat cut from 1 leg and thigh, 2 tablespoons canned green tripe (can be frozen in ice cube trays).


Day 2.
Breakfast: 1lb chicken meat (no bone), 1 heart, 1 giblet, 1 liver.

Supper: 8-10 small frozen sardines

Day 3.
Breakfast: 1 chicken carcass, 1/2 lb pork.
Supper: 1/2 pork, 1 whole raw egg.

Day 4.
Breakfast: Roughly 14oz beef (both muscle and heart), 2 1/2oz beef liver and veal kidney.
Supper: Another 14oz beef, 2 tablespoons green tripe.


We have two gulpers here as well and I find it helps if you either [B]a)[/B] hold onto one end of the meat [B]b)[/B] take a mallet to it [B]c)[/B] cut it into cubes. Large pieces such as 1/2 chicken and chicken carcasses, I leave whole.

If you find your pup's stool is too soft, reduce the amount of organs by a little bit or increase the amount of bone. If he's getting a little too chunky, cut back on the overall amount by a few ounces at a time. If he seems too thin to you (and your vet), increase the amount by a few ounces at a time.

Find a good butcher/poultry store. It's been my experience that you get the freshest, least expensive meat here, especially if you buy in bulk.

Some of the meats we feed:
Chicken
Beef
Pork
Frozen whole sardines and mackerel
Turkey
Duck
Bison
Quail
Rabbit
Deer
Canned green tripe (we use the Tripett brand)

The first 5 we feed most often as the others are quite costly in our area. We don't feed lamb but only because it causes explosive diarrhea for two of ours. For treats and training purposes, we also feed leftovers including pureed veggies (minus spices, cooked fat, and onions), cheese (incl. non-salted cottage cheese), and fried liver to name a few.

You may want to join a raw-feeding group (eg. [url]http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/[/url] ), and pick up a few books [url]http://www.dogwise.com/Browse/SubCatList.cfm?SubCat=Raw%20and%20Natural%20Foods[/url] . One that's come highly recommended to me (just ordered it) is OPTIMAL NUTRITION - RAW AND COOKED CANINE DIETS by Monica Segal . Just remember that there are several approaches to raw feeding out there and you have to decide what is best for you and your pup but, always keeping in mind the approximate ratio of meat : bone : organs and a well-balanced variety.

cassiek October 12th, 2010 08:49 PM

[QUOTE=Rgeurts;958166]
One thing people get very hung up on is that dogs in the wild will not forage for vegetables, grains, fruits etc., they are carnivores. While that is mostly true (wild dogs will forage for whatever they can, including gardens!), dogs have been domesticated for decades, and as such, their immune systems and digestion have adjusted as well.

[B]The research I have done has concluded that while dogs have been domesticated, their digestive system remains largely the same as that of their ancestors. While a dog can certainly eat kibble, their digestive system is actually more suited towards eating raw meat and can handle the bacteria that are naturally found in it.[/B]

Below are just a couple of links. If you search the internet and speak with an animal nutritionist (not just a vet, most aren't nearly as versed in animal nutrition as they would like people to believe), you will be given a lot of good information. Some will be biased, some not. It's up to you to make the decision. As I said, some dogs do great on raw, some do not. Most raw feeders will have you believe that [B]all[/B] dogs benefit from it, which is just not true. Also, a lot of very prominent veterinarians and nutritionists call raw feeding a "fad" diet as there are no substantiated clinical trials to prove good or bad.

[B]Alot of veterinarians call it a "fad" diet as they are trying to push their own products. They want as many pet owners to be feeding vet food as possible as they receive a cut of the profit. IMO, the "best" proof or as you call it "substantiated clinical trial" of raw is your dog's health. My dog's THRIVE, not just SURVIVE, on a raw diet and to me that's proof enough :shrug: For every trial or research that discredits a raw diet, there is one (or more...) that discredit feeding kibble. IMO, a raw diet makes the most sense. That being said, I still like to feed 1/2 kibble for the conveinance when we go camping, etc.[/B]

[URL="http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm"]http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm[/URL]

[URL="http://dogtime.com/raw-food-diet-dangers-dogs-aaha.html"]http://dogtime.com/raw-food-diet-dangers-dogs-aaha.html[/URL]

Good luck :)[/QUOTE]

I think the main dangers of feeding a raw diet comes with how the humans prepare it (same can be said for our own meat we consume). Raw meat should be treated as such and adequate handling and clean-up procedures should be followed.

I agree that not all dogs do well on a raw diet, but I also think many people give up on it after only trying it for a short time. It can take time (along with runny poops etc.) before a raw feeder figures out what works for their dog, as every dog is different and some simply do not tolerates certain types of raw meat. It doesn't mean they can not eat raw period, it simply means that some meats need to be avoided.

Some good sites:

[url]http://www.barfworld.com/[/url]

[url]http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/health/nutritionarticle14.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/ExpDiet.html[/url]

Rgeurts October 12th, 2010 10:18 PM

[QUOTE=cassiek;958465]I think the main dangers of feeding a raw diet comes with how the humans prepare it (same can be said for our own meat we consume). Raw meat should be treated as such and adequate handling and clean-up procedures should be followed.

[B][I]I agree completely that preparation is definitely a danger.[/I][/B]

I agree that not all dogs do well on a raw diet, but I also think many people give up on it after only trying it for a short time.


[/QUOTE]

[B][I]I'm sure alot of dogs do well, but some will not, and some it can kill. I have a very good friend here who as done a lot of research as well as our specialist. She doesn't push kibble or vet brands and is actually very pro-homemade, just not raw for our guy. While most dogs may be able to fight off bacteria, not all can. And a lot of dogs still die from the ill effects of bone (even raw). One thing they [B]cannot[/B] fight off is parasites. I'm not talking about worms, I'm talking about Neosopra, Toxo etc. And there is proof that these parasites do come from raw meat. Neospora is mainly beef. As I said, I'm not anti-raw, but it's not for everyone, or every dog/cat.[/I]
[/B]

Leash Out October 12th, 2010 10:43 PM

We have been feeding our new dog RAW and changed our other dogs to RAW food and they have been thriving on it. There coats are beautiful, there teeth look super white, and even their behaviours have changed for the better. I wish I had known about RAW for the last 14 years of my other doggies life. Now having said that, you have to add alot of other things to RAW to make it completed, like alfalfa, kelp, carrots stalks, blueberries, things like that. Dogs (in the wild) were scavengers, they didn't just prey on meat, they ate whatever was available to survive.

Silverwolf my only suggestion is don't mix meats together or cooked with RAW at the same time. If your going to give him chicken for a meal, just stick with that chicken. Next meal give him something different. Another suggestion is he may be too young for the bones etc. In the wild the pups probably would have stuck more to the softer meat, like chicken breast, chicken, organs, things like that. I would wait past 6 - 8 months before you give him bones. You can also add pumpkin or yogurt (plain) to his diet to help him with his tummy.

Hope this helps!
Sandro

cassiek October 12th, 2010 11:59 PM

[QUOTE=Rgeurts;958499][B][I]I'm sure alot of dogs do well, but some will not, and some it can kill. I have a very good friend here who as done a lot of research as well as our specialist. She doesn't push kibble or vet brands and is actually very pro-homemade, just not raw for our guy. While most dogs may be able to fight off bacteria, not all can. And a lot of dogs still die from the ill effects of bone (even raw). One thing they [B]cannot[/B] fight off is parasites. I'm not talking about worms, I'm talking about Neosopra, Toxo etc. And there is proof that these parasites do come from raw meat. Neospora is mainly beef. As I said, I'm not anti-raw, but it's not for everyone, or every dog/cat.[/I]
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have never heard of raw meat being the [B]sole cause[/B] of a dog dying :shrug: I'd be interested to read any articles/research you have on this.

You need to be very careful when feeding [B]any[/B] type of bone or treat to a dog. The potential is always there for a serious accident. [B]You should never, ever feed COOKED bones.[/B] Raw bones pose no more threat than any other treat, but generally speaking you should be careful with larger, [B]weight-bearing bones[/B] as the potential is there to injure a dog's tooth. As with any treat or toy, feeding raw bones should be supervised. Generally speaking, softer [B]less weight-bearing bones[/B] such as those found in poultry, are usually easily digested with no problems whatsoever. But again, all bones should be supervised, cooked ones NEVER given, and common sense used. Many, many dogs successfully gnaw on and digest raw bones and enjoy the benefits of beautiful, sparkling white teeth and overall oral health.

I agree that not all dogs or cats will THRIVE on one diet, but many can (and do!) very, very well on a raw diet that is [B]properly[/B] planned out with some common sense used. :thumbs up It can be tricky, but it certainly can be done. Some people like to feed half kibble/half raw (like I do), eitheir for the conveinance or to save some cash.

Best bet is to do your research and read [B]all sides of the argument[/B] and talk to people with real life experience to learn what they do/don't like about the diet and why they would or wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't trust my vet or anyone else with a biast opinion on this topic. My dogs have never done so well since switching to a raw diet, but every dog is different. This has just been my experience.

Based on what I learned on nutrition, I think RAW makes the most sense, but again this is just my experience. Biggest challenge that vets, nutrionists, etc. struggled with when I was in University was that they were concerned about the health effects of preparing raw meat on the humans in the household - it's simple, follow the basic prep and wash methods around all raw meat, and it shouldn't be a problem. I am very anal about this - making sure to use stainless steel dishes, wash all dishes/utensils/countertops etc after preperation and feeding.

Some people are just uncomfortable feeding a raw diet and that's perfectly okay. I think a high-quality grain free diet is an excellent substitute! :thumbs up

MerlinsHope October 13th, 2010 05:24 AM

[I]t it's not for everyone or every animal. Just do your research, know your pups health and make your own decisions.[/I]

Sorry! There is absolutely nothing further from the truth. Raw meat is entirely species appropriate. Commercial foods will never, ever be species appropriate, and is pushed both physically and mentally by their manufacturers. Albeit there are finally better quality foods out there, they are still commercially prepared out of waste products and buffered chemically to offer viable nutrition.

[I]And there is proof that these parasites do come from raw meat[/I]

Raw feeders learn to freeze wild meats before having their pets consume them. As far as beef, pork and other government inspected meats, all animals including ourselves have parasites. So do you. So do I. If you think you don't have parasites in your body, you're gravely mistaken too. I've never heard of a dog die from a raw diet, other than one choking on cooked chicken bones. If you don't want to feed raw to your dog, that's quite fine, but it's not fine to spew fear into newbies based on information put out there by people supported by the commercial manufacturers.

I absolutely agree that some dogs don't do well on raw, but this is solely because complete mis application of the diet by their owners, and it's basically entirely based on the owners not wanting to do it, understand it, or accept it, and I agree, those people should stay away from the concept until such time as they can stop equating their dog's digestive system, physical and mental needs, as they do their own.

Silverwolf, consider joining rawpets.ca to check out the information there. Some of the other links mentioned here are great too and will move you forwards.

MerlinsHope October 13th, 2010 05:54 AM

[I]ou can also add pumpkin or yogurt (plain) to his diet to help him with his tummy[/I].

Just so you know, pumpkin is a sugar laden, water filled fiber and does nothing for his stomach, and for all those out there feeding yogurt to their dogs, the species appropriate version is green tripe, which will offer active enzymes. You'd have to feed your dog a heck of a lot of yogurt to achieve the same thing as you could with just one tablespoon of green tripe. Again, this is why it's important to stick to species appropriate foods.

It's true that you're not harming the dog by feeding it pumpkin and yogurt, but money can often be better spent on better foods for your dog.

An upset stomach is a sign of missing digestive enzymes. This is very, very normal for dogs making transitions, and for puppies who have not been transversed by their own mothers. Vomiting is an active part of digestion for any dog. It's normal to see a dog consume some food, puke it up, then re-consume it. While we don't like watching that, it's quite normal for them to do.

For new dogs coming off of kibble, especially poor quality kibble, there is a cross over period of at least 10 days. You cannot expect your dog's insides to adapt overnight when it's natural enzymes were stripped away because of kibble. They will re-establish themselves naturally. One of the best ways to achieve this is to feed your dog at staggered times BEFORE he gets too hungry. When the dog gets hungry and anticipates a meal, he automatically loads his stomach with digestive enzymes ( anticipating the meal), so now you have a stomach loaded with the wrong type of enzymes...... you give new food .. and poof... dog throws up.

Rgeurts October 13th, 2010 12:11 PM

:shrug:[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958517][I]t it's not for everyone or every animal. Just do your research, know your pups health and make your own decisions.[/I]

Sorry! There is absolutely nothing further from the truth. Raw meat is entirely species appropriate.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]You are completely entitled to your own opinion, just as I am.[/COLOR]

[I]And there is proof that these parasites do come from raw meat[/I]


I've never heard of a dog die from a raw diet, other than one choking on cooked chicken bones.

[COLOR="royalblue"]Then you haven't looked. Many dogs have died from N. caninum which comes from raw meat (that was only recently discovered). Our puppy was one of the lucky who survived, though it has cost us just about $12,000 in vet care/medications/hospitalization/treatments. So when you say all dogs can benefit, you're wrong. One with a compromised immune system, such as ours, is at great risk no matter the level of care given when feeding raw.[/COLOR]


If you don't want to feed raw to your dog, that's quite fine, but it's not fine to spew fear into newbies based on information put out there by people supported by the commercial manufacturers.

[COLOR="royalblue"]As I stated, more than once, I am not anti-raw. But people need to make [B][I]informed[/I][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]choices and make sure there are no underlying health problems. I didn't attack you or your choices/opinions, or anyone elses. So please, show the same respect. Also, the information I have is [B][I]not[/I][/B] "put out there by people supported by the commercial manufacturers." as you put it. I have many articles and case studies completed by experts in the filed of parasitic diseases etc. that have nothing to do with animal nutrition and do not even mention food in any way, shape or form. They are not self serving at all. They just provide information and people need to take that information and make their choices. Whether you feel it is right or wrong, means nothing. It's individual[/COLOR].[/QUOTE]


Ok, let me just say when I first responded to this post I didn't even look at the category. Had I done so I probably would not have responded because raw is not my passion or area of expertise in any way. But I still feel people should make informed choices. I'm not going to fight and argue. I know what information I have, and as far as my baby is concerned, it's enough to keep me away from raw. Cassiek, I do have a few case studies and articles. I will pm you the links :)

MerlinsHope, you can respond if you like, but I won't sit here and argue the matter with you. In fact, I'll just browse my normal places and won't be responding here again. Have a great day ;)

cassiek October 13th, 2010 11:33 PM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958517]

I absolutely agree that some dogs don't do well on raw, but this is solely because complete mis application of the diet by their owners, and it's basically entirely based on the owners not wanting to do it, understand it, or accept it, and I agree, those people should stay away from the concept until such time as they can stop equating their dog's digestive system, physical and mental needs, as they do their own.

[/QUOTE]

[B]I agree, many new raw feeders (including myself :rolleyes:) made some mistakes when starting out that ended up causing upset stomachs, loose stools etc. It can be tempting to go back to kibble, but I think many raw feeders that stick with it are delighted with the results :shrug:[/B]

[QUOTE=Rgeurts;958666]:shrug:


Ok, let me just say when I first responded to this post I didn't even look at the category. Had I done so I probably would not have responded because raw is not my passion or area of expertise in any way. But I still feel people should make informed choices. I'm not going to fight and argue. I know what information I have, and as far as my baby is concerned, it's enough to keep me away from raw. Cassiek, I do have a few case studies and articles. I will pm you the links :)

MerlinsHope, you can respond if you like, but I won't sit here and argue the matter with you. In fact, I'll just browse my normal places and won't be responding here again. Have a great day ;)[/QUOTE]

[B]Thank you for the PM, Rgeurts. I will look over those. It's unfortunate you had such a rotten experience with raw and thank goodness your pup is okay[/B]

I think a raw diet is the best, most species appropriate diet for a dog; but it may not be suitable for all dogs based eitheir on the dog or the owner. Some people are simply uncomfortable feeding a raw diet, can't be bothered to invest the time it requires, etc. and if that's the case they should stay away from it. It takes a lot more work than simply throwing a cup of kibble in the bowl... but it's been worth it for my dogs. :thumbs up

pattymac October 14th, 2010 12:37 AM

When I was raw feeding, when I could get chicken cheap..raw seems to be more pricey to feed out here but I do throw in raw when I can get it cheap. Anyway, I would grind Bayley's chicken legs and thighs bone and all. I used Urban Wolf to mix in so I knew she was getting all the essential nutrients. Grinding the chicken meant that I didn't have to worry about bones. Breast bones and that she didn't mind but she didn't like the leg bones.

MerlinsHope October 14th, 2010 06:20 AM

[QUOTE]MerlinsHope, you can respond if you like, but I won't sit here and argue the matter with you. In fact, I'll just browse my normal places and won't be responding here again. Have a great day[/QUOTE]

Rguerts, you'll find that more dogs have died or have become permanently ill or damaged from commercial dog foods than any dogs have ever died from raw and the dogs that did die from raw are dogs that were poorly employed by their owners, or other caveats came into play, and again, I totally agree, if you cannot do this diet properly, then I'll be the first to say "don't do it", but don't pass your phobias onto others. More dogs have died in the last 14 years from "government inspected", tainted kibble ingredients or pharmaceutical therapies, than from any other illness, outside of shelter euthanasia.

MerlinsHope October 14th, 2010 06:23 AM

[QUOTE]Then you haven't looked. Many dogs have died from N. caninum which comes from raw meat (that was only recently discovered). Our puppy was one of the lucky who survived, though it has cost us just about $12,000 in vet care/medications/hospitalization/treatments. So when you say all dogs can benefit, you're wrong. One with a compromised immune system, such as ours, is at great risk no matter the level of care given when feeding raw.[/QUOTE]

I'm really sorry to hear about this . I truly am and I absolutely sympathize and understand your fears. I'll suggest to you though, that your puppy was sick anyways however, much before the diet and already had a compromised immune system which could easily have occurred from innoculations - vets never seem to want to do studies on that for some reason or another.

N canium would not cause a problem with dogs with healthy guts.
A health dog's stomach is 50% hydrochloric acid and they can easily eat 3 week old, sun baked road kill without a problem.
Any remote , rural farmer to this day, can tell still you that their dogs get table scraps, any felled bovines/ruminants on the farm and any rats, mice, rabbits, skunks and raccoons they can get their teeth on. Not much has changed in that department, and these dogs live well over 18 - 19 years old.

Two issues have become very conclusive:
The do not ever eat commercial foods
They have little or no medical care including regular innoculations
Most have never, ever been on anti biotics

They even seem to self de-worm from eating specific grasses, plants and barks. I'm doing my Masters in nutrition and two years ago I started a survey of country dogs in the Grenville township of Ontario. I'm truly impressed at how much healthier these dogs over, over city and suburban, and urban dogs who have access to medical care and supposedly, good food. Another fact is that the dogs in rural areas carry far better genetics it seems and are generally healthier.

aslan October 14th, 2010 07:26 AM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958912]I'm really sorry to hear about this . I truly am and I absolutely sympathize and understand your fears. I'll suggest to you though, that your puppy was sick anyways however, much before the diet and already had a compromised immune system which could easily have occurred from innoculations - vets never seem to want to do studies on that for some reason or another.[/QUOTE]

Merlins hope,,,this is exactly what Rgeurts was saying,,,,IF your dog has a health issue,,known or unknown,,then raw may not be the best diet for them..I don't think she was advocating feeding crap kibble,,or pushing her phobia's along. I am a raw feeder and do agree that personally MY dogs do thrive on it,,as you can see if you've ever seen pics of qman or bailey. But IF one of my two had an underlying issue they may not do as well on it. My first suggestion to anyone who wants to switch to a raw diet is.....have them allergy tested for poultry allergies. Read anything and everything you can on a proper,balanced raw diet. And ask questions of other raw feeders.

Marty11 October 14th, 2010 09:15 AM

Isn't the frozen raw patties a good alternative? Raw food, no bones? Added nutrients in some varieties?

cassiek October 14th, 2010 12:19 PM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958911]Rguerts, you'll find that more dogs have died or have become permanently ill or damaged from commercial dog foods than any dogs have ever died from raw and the dogs that did die from raw are dogs that were poorly employed by their owners, or other caveats came into play, and again, I totally agree, if you cannot do this diet properly, then I'll be the first to say "don't do it", but don't pass your phobias onto others. More dogs have died in the last 14 years from "government inspected", tainted kibble ingredients or pharmaceutical therapies, than from any other illness, outside of shelter euthanasia.[/QUOTE]

This is what I have found in my research too :shrug:

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;958912]I'm really sorry to hear about this . I truly am and I absolutely sympathize and understand your fears. I'll suggest to you though, that your puppy was sick anyways however, much before the diet and already had a compromised immune system which could easily have occurred from innoculations - vets never seem to want to do studies on that for some reason or another.

N canium would not cause a problem with dogs with healthy guts.
A health dog's stomach is 50% hydrochloric acid and they can easily eat 3 week old, sun baked road kill without a problem.
Any remote , rural farmer to this day, can tell still you that their dogs get table scraps, any felled bovines/ruminants on the farm and any rats, mice, rabbits, skunks and raccoons they can get their teeth on. Not much has changed in that department, and these dogs live well over 18 - 19 years old.
[/QUOTE]

I agree 110%! I work with farmers on a daily basis and all of them feed their dogs table scraps or raw meat (usually poultry) and the dogs are in better shape than most dogs I meet that are from the city! They are never vaccinated and most live to be 15+ years old.

[QUOTE=Marty11;958960]Isn't the frozen raw patties a good alternative? Raw food, no bones? Added nutrients in some varieties?[/QUOTE]

The frozen raw patties usually have bone in them, it's just ground up. But yes, you can get raw patties that have veggies, fruit, etc. in them and other goodies. They can be quite expensive though.

MerlinsHope October 15th, 2010 05:36 AM

[QUOTE]The frozen raw patties usually have bone in them, it's just ground up. But yes, you can get raw patties that have veggies, fruit, etc. in them and other goodies. They can be quite expensive though.[/QUOTE]


Here again, if you do this, you are subscribing to commercial foods and are at the whim of whatever goes wrong with these foods. That's not what raw is all about. It's about US making a conscious choice to feed our dogs quality, species appropriate foods. Commercial raw is no better than commercial kibble or commercial canned. Don't mislead yourselves.

MerlinsHope October 15th, 2010 05:45 AM

[QUOTE]IF your dog has a health issue,,known or unknown,,then raw may not be the best diet for them.[/QUOTE]

What leads you to think that kibble is bacteria free? Commercial foods come with their own set of unwanted bacteria, certainly aren't free of it, I don't know why anyone thinks they are.

I'm suggesting that the dog would very likely have become sick anyways.
No one will really ever know, but it's always convenient to blame immediately tangible rather than something outside of mal practice or poor genetics.

While they do have a preservative added to it, kibble is not bacteria free.

Love4himies October 15th, 2010 06:46 AM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;959095]
I'm suggesting that the dog would very likely have become sick anyways.
No one will really ever know, but it's always convenient to blame immediately tangible rather than something outside of mal practice or poor genetics.

[COLOR="Red"]Absolutely. I can vouch for poor genetics causing horrible health problems in humans :yell: :(. [/COLOR]

While they do have a preservative added to it, kibble is not bacteria free.[/QUOTE]

Again, "proof is in the pudding", look at the recalls due to salmonella on kibble. How many pets died from the tainted wheat gluten? Unless you make your own raw, you can never be sure of what has been put in the food.

Melinda October 15th, 2010 07:13 AM

my vet will be the first to let you know he knows nothing about nutrition and will often call me up to ask me about this or that food, to me, its all in how your dog is reacting to their feedings, Brina doesn't do well on raw...in fact, she won't even touch it which is silly because she loves her frozen soup bones! but give her a raw steak or chunk of roast and she sits looking at it. I'm on the fence on this one. but good luck and do research research research....

aslan October 15th, 2010 07:14 AM

[QUOTE=MerlinsHope;959095]What leads you to think that kibble is bacteria free? Commercial foods come with their own set of unwanted bacteria, certainly aren't free of it, I don't know why anyone thinks they are.
[COLOR="Red"]Where in what i said did you get that i think kibble is bacteria free,,,where in what i said did i even state an opinion on kibble,,,I DID say that i too am a raw feeder..[/COLOR]
I'm suggesting that the dog would very likely have become sick anyways.
No one will really ever know, but it's always convenient to blame immediately tangible rather than something outside of mal practice or poor genetics.

While they do have a preservative added to it, kibble is not bacteria free.[/QUOTE]

At no point did i say that it was or wasn't anytype of food that made the animal sick,,, What i did say was that if the dog already has issues,,,you know what never mind.

Love4himies October 15th, 2010 07:18 AM

[QUOTE=Melinda;959109]my vet will be the first to let you know he knows nothing about nutrition and will often call me up to ask me about this or that food, [COLOR="Red"]Now that is a vet with a great attitude :thumbs up[/COLOR]

I'm on the fence on this one. but good luck and do research research research....[/QUOTE]

Yes, research is so important, "knowledge is power"

Dog Dancer October 15th, 2010 10:54 AM

I can't help but wonder if the OP is even bothering to read this thread anymore it's gotten so touchy.

MerlinsHope October 17th, 2010 09:16 AM

[QUOTE]Brina doesn't do well on raw...in fact, she won't even touch it[/QUOTE]

It is proven that dogs eat in the following order;
- Smell
- Texture
- then... taste

Raw meat has a clean, fresh smell.
Kibble is laden with taste enhancers and smell enhancers to encourage the dog to consume it, so it's very likely that when you give your dog a piece of raw meat, the dog doesn't even know what it is, and doesn't recognize it as a food source - so initially you can disguise it with stinky cheese or smelly green tripe, bacon fat, etc..

This is not much different than a baby or child brought up on cookies and candies, then all of a sudden you give that same baby a piece of raw cauliflower or broccoli and expect that baby to eat it with a smile on it's face. YOU know it's healther, but dollars to donuts, baby could care less about your cauliflower and wants the candy instead.


Give it some thought.

erykah1310 October 17th, 2010 10:26 AM

[QUOTE=Silverwolf;958129]

Well, in an attempt to ween him off the kibble and try to make the transition easier on him (he was already starting to have really soft poos on the kibble), we started mixing a little kibble with some raw ground beef, to see how he'd take it. Things seemed to be ok (he ended up scarfing it down and becoming houdini, making it disappear before our very eyes lol)

[COLOR="Red"]Raw and kibble digest at very different rates, its never a great idea to mix the two together.[/COLOR]


so we started separating it a bit, feeding him kibble in the morning and his raw ground beef in the evening. After a few days, his poos were starting to get a bit weird, soft one time and a bit runny later on... After reading up some and getting advice from a few others with the same problem, everything suggested not feeding him the kibble, to just start him cold turkey and starting with chicken, as that would be the easiest.

[COLOR="Red"]A cold turkey start is the best way to do it, however had anyone suggested giving a broad spectrum digestive enzyme prior to feeding in the beginning to aid in digestion of the new diet? If not, I would recommend picking some up at your local pharmacy. I will touch on the runny poops a bit later on.[/COLOR]

Well it's been about a week now and from our calculations (8% of his body weight, or 2% of his adult ideal weight) he gets about 1.5lbs of food a day, 75% meat, 15% bone, and 10% liver/organs. We started on chicken as suggested and his meals are usually comprised like this, with a few variations:

[COLOR="Red"]Here is where I suspect your runny poops are coming from, the beauty of a raw diet is it is not an exact science and it is so easy to adjust to your dogs specific needs.
Firstly, I would lower the meat amount to approx 60% and then increse your bone to 30%, runny poops mean not enough bone, solid "cement looking " poops means too much, if cement poops start, increase your offal and lower your bone. It takes a bit of tinkering around but it will work out[/COLOR]





For the first day or 2 he seemed fine with it, chewing everything properly and his bowel movements were normal. Still soft like from the kibble though, so we weren't sure if that was normal or not. After the first 2 days he seemed to have a bit of a tummy upset and vomited one morning first some of his meal, then the butt end of the chicken leg bone.
[COLOR="Red"]Its not really due to stomach upset, it IS normal for them to purge and re chew their foods. Mine do it frequently, we let them re try it. [/COLOR]


In the meantime this weekend, his poos have been going from soft to runny... with him having a bout of constipation from Saturday night until last night (sunday, we think from the part of bone/whole bone he swallowed) then having a slightly runnier soft poo when he did finally go. This morning he just flat out had runny diarrhea. :\

I also forgot to mention that throughout his runny/soft poo switches he's had some horrific gas throught the end of the week/weekend. :(

[COLOR="Red"]Gas is definately a "new to raw" side effect some dogs get, again the broad spectrum digestive enzymes will help with this.
The runny poops- constipation could be many things, imbalance in the amount of each part of the raw diet, or simply detox. Again though, with the aid of digestive enzymes this could easily clear up. But for the time being I would suggest adding a bit of canned pumpkin ( pure not pie filling) to the diet to keep bowel movements "normal"[/COLOR]


Are we doing right by this puppy or is there something that should be changed? I'm starting to get a bit worried that we shouldn't be giving him chicken bones after all and that we're doing some horrible things to his stomach and bowels. I hate seeing his tummy so upset. :\

[COLOR="Red"]I would say that after reading and commenting on what is going on with your puppy, you are doing fine by your pup, just tinker around with the ratio a bit, help out with digestive abilities and keep at it. What you are experiencing is not any different from what i have experienced with my rescue cocker spaniel who had lived his entire life until arriving with us on a commercial kibble ( low low end at that) It can take several weeks for them to "get used to" a raw diet, especially with out digestive enzymes ( I really am pushing them but I think they would be very helpful for your pup)[/COLOR]



Edit:: I also again forgot to mention... last Wednesday when he was at the vet we had him started on his vaccinations and de-worm/worm prevention. That night he seemed to get a bit of a fever (which the vet said he might get) but got more comfortable when he could sleep by our air conditioner on low. The next day he seemed his normal energetic self. That was a day before the tummy problems started. Could this all be detox? Or bone not digesting well? Or just from his first vaccine?[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Red"]I despise vaccinations so naturally it would be my style to blame them, the fever I would contribute to vaccs yes. I wouldnt consider bone not digesting well. Chicken bones are extrememly soft and easily digested by dogs.[/COLOR]



Now on a side note to the bickering about raw that has taken over this thread...
Raw theoretically is perfect for every normal healthy dog, and even for some that have certain health problems.
As for choking on bones, chipping teeth ect. My old vet and I had it out about this exact topic. I have 2 dogs with chipped teeth because of fetching sticks (one for chewing rocks) and when I asked the vet what the last impaction removal she had done was due to, her answer was socks. I then asked her if I should stop wearing and buying socks because my dog could swallow one she got extremely snippy with me.

The yay or nay for raw will go on forever and there will be no changing eithers minds on their opinion.
In this case in this thread, the OP wants to feed raw, and asked nothing about the pros and cons so I do not see why the bacterial non sense was even brought up in this thread. If there was to be a discussion or debate about raw feeding a new thread should have been started IMHO.
Thread jacking this thread has done almost nothing for the OP and I hope that they are still reading this to atleast see what advice has been offered on the topic.


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